Are the Ends always justified by the Means?

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Is a morally good end justified by morally wrong means?

  • Total voters
    8
Anderswelt

Anderswelt

Member
#61
Oct 18, 2019
37
38
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#61
Roughsoul1991 said:
What do you mean by that? Did you define it for me?

It is according to what you been by literal word. If you mean by the txt alone then I will say yes to a degree. Because even though the literal text is absolute truth some verses takes studying to put more meat on the truth. A deeper understanding of the truth. Same truth but deeper understanding.

Which part of the Bible isnt true or which part do you need more faith to believe?
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Agreed regarding literalness of the Bible. Poetic language etc must be interpreted correctly. Knowledge of the Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek is very important here. That said, there is no key doctrine that cannot be understood in a proper translation of these manuscripts. Besides, the Holy Spirit (Ruakh Ha-Kodesh) is what guides us, for the natural man cannot receive the things of the spirit. If we are prayerfully and earnestly seeking the truth, we will find it. The Bible is the most well preserved item of antiquity and most complete; it can be trusted as irrefutible and certainly holds up much better than the deluded ramblings and lies of the humanists who have contaminated human thought for hundreds of years in the Western world.
 
Dibby53

Dibby53

Banned
#62
Sep 29, 2019
394
170
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#62
Roughsoul1991 said:
Not sure how what I said relates to your comment. Maybe explain this comment above in more detail.
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Sorry Roughsoul, yes my answer was a bit brief.
You say that not lying is an absolute. You plucked a couple of verses from Proverbs wrenched from its context to prove your point. In your point about lying to protect the jews from nazis, I said it is virtuous to lie. Love demands it. If you believe it is a wicked sin then presumably the one who does lie in this situation risks hell. That's why I said it was rediculous. If you admit that lying in this situation is the proper course of action, then the rule not to lie is not absolute.
 
Dibby53

Dibby53

Banned
#63
Sep 29, 2019
394
170
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#63
Roughsoul1991 said:
How is speaking on Hell judging if the Word of God speaks on Hell?

I'm curious. Tell me which scripture should we hide from unbelievers? Both taught by Jesus.

This one

Matthew 13:47-50
47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Or this one.

Matthew 22:37
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

Define Judging as in what do you consider judging?
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In the verse from Matthew Jesus never specified the length of time people would be in hell. In other verses the greek word describing the length of time in hell is " aionian" . Mistranslated as "everlasting" it is a word that has a definite duration, and end point. Best translated as " age long". Eternal, never ending torment is a false teaching. God's punishments are purifying and reformative. For the first 500 years of christianity universal restoration was the predominant view.
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
#65
Sep 17, 2016
8,829
4,472
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#65
Dibby53 said:
Sorry Roughsoul, yes my answer was a bit brief.
You say that not lying is an absolute. You plucked a couple of verses from Proverbs wrenched from its context to prove your point. In your point about lying to protect the jews from nazis, I said it is virtuous to lie. Love demands it. If you believe it is a wicked sin then presumably the one who does lie in this situation risks hell. That's why I said it was rediculous. If you admit that lying in this situation is the proper course of action, then the rule not to lie is not absolute.
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I used one verse. Now I will use two.

Proverbs 6:16-19 New International Version (NIV)
16 There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

All sins lead to Hell without the payment for those sins. God is quite clear on lying. You will have to find where God says lying is okay. Only 2 times I can find where someone lied that resulted in good results and either one God didn't praise or hate the action. So the gray area stands.

I would assume though God also looks at the heart and the intentions of someone's lie. If they lied to save the Jews that is between them and God. Because otherwise that is a gray area, a rare area that isn't spoke on. And I'm sure God would guide the individual in Spirit to do his will.
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
#66
Sep 17, 2016
8,829
4,472
113
#66
Dibby53 said:
In the verse from Matthew Jesus never specified the length of time people would be in hell. In other verses the greek word describing the length of time in hell is " aionian" . Mistranslated as "everlasting" it is a word that has a definite duration, and end point. Best translated as " age long". Eternal, never ending torment is a false teaching. God's punishments are purifying and reformative. For the first 500 years of christianity universal restoration was the predominant view.
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This on the details on translation where as I was debating on the very truth that Hell exists.
 
Dibby53

Dibby53

Banned
#68
Sep 29, 2019
394
170
43
#68
Roughsoul1991 said:
I used one verse. Now I will use two.

Proverbs 6:16-19 New International Version (NIV)
16 There are six things the Lord hates,
seven that are detestable to him:
17 haughty eyes,
a lying tongue,
hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked schemes,
feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19 a false witness who pours out lies
and a person who stirs up conflict in the community.

All sins lead to Hell without the payment for those sins. God is quite clear on lying. You will have to find where God says lying is okay. Only 2 times I can find where someone lied that resulted in good results and either one God didn't praise or hate the action. So the gray area stands.

I would assume though God also looks at the heart and the intentions of someone's lie. If they lied to save the Jews that is between them and God. Because otherwise that is a gray area, a rare area that isn't spoke on. And I'm sure God would guide the individual in Spirit to do his will.
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Then if there is a gray area it is not black and white. Thus not absolute.
Interesting too that Proverbs 6: 17 says, the Lord hates " hands that shed innocent blood"......back to the promised land murders we go. Babes and children are innocent.....are they not?
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
#69
Sep 17, 2016
8,829
4,472
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#69
Dibby53 said:
Then if there is a gray area it is not black and white. Thus not absolute.
Interesting too that Proverbs 6: 17 says, the Lord hates " hands that shed innocent blood"......back to the promised land murders we go. Babes and children are innocent.....are they not?
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Nope lying is absolute the area I was talking about is how God judges the liars heart. Gods judgment is what we cannot know.

Who says mankind is innocent? Plus like It says God hates the hands that shed innocent blood. Are any of us innocent in the eyes of God?
 
Dibby53

Dibby53

Banned
#71
Sep 29, 2019
394
170
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#71
Roughsoul1991 said:
Nope lying is absolute the area I was talking about is how God judges the liars heart. Gods judgment is what we cannot know.

Who says mankind is innocent? Plus like It says God hates the hands that shed innocent blood. Are any of us innocent in the eyes of God?
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Not so. You are here quoting Proverbs, which states what the Lord hates. That's a judgement. But then you say we cannot know what his judgements are.

Your next statement is all over the place. If none of us are innocent in his eyes then why would he hate the shedding of innocent blood? Since, in your view, no one is innocent. So you can excuse the killing of women and children since they are not innocent?
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
#72
Sep 17, 2016
8,829
4,472
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#72
Dibby53 said:
Not so. You are here quoting Proverbs, which states what the Lord hates. That's a judgement. But then you say we cannot know what his judgements are.

Your next statement is all over the place. If none of us are innocent in his eyes then why would he hate the shedding of innocent blood? Since, in your view, no one is innocent. So you can excuse the killing of women and children since they are not innocent?
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Judgement of the heart. That is what I cannot see or know. I do not know the persons heart or intentions by outward appearance. Only God can see that. Only God can judge what we cant see.

You are failing to understand God and man. You are putting God equal with man. We all have the disease of sin casted on mankind ever since the fall through Adam and Eve. When God takes life it isnt murder or the same if man takes life.

Explain from God's perspective this verse.

Romans 3:10 New International Version (NIV)
10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one

Your only option because you do not like the words written in the OT is to say it isnt true. But you must provide a different alternative to show why isn't it true? And then if it isnt true then what is true.
 
Dibby53

Dibby53

Banned
#73
Sep 29, 2019
394
170
43
#73
Roughsoul1991 said:
Judgement of the heart. That is what I cannot see or know. I do not know the persons heart or intentions by outward appearance. Only God can see that. Only God can judge what we cant see.

You are failing to understand God and man. You are putting God equal with man. We all have the disease of sin casted on mankind ever since the fall through Adam and Eve. When God takes life it isnt murder or the same if man takes life.

Explain from God's perspective this verse.

Romans 3:10 New International Version (NIV)
10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one

Your only option because you do not like the words written in the OT is to say it isnt true. But you must provide a different alternative to show why isn't it true? And then if it isnt true then what is true.
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The rules are not absolute then, since the motivation of the heart is primary. And only God can judge.
I,m not saying the verses you quoted are not true, but you point to a verse saying what God hates (which is a judgment), and try and make an a absolute rule about lying from it. You then say it isn't absolute because God only judges the heart. ( which I agree with).

I would need to see the context of the Romans verse. But if what you say is true, then who is the innocent blood that God hates being spilled from Proverbs? Actually, I think it is you that is confusing God and man. It is men that slaughter the innocents in the promised land....not God. Either God hates the spilling of innocent blood ( which you say doesn't exist) or he does not. Which is it?
 
Roughsoul1991

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
#74
Sep 17, 2016
8,829
4,472
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#74
Dibby53 said:
The rules are not absolute then, since the motivation of the heart is primary. And only God can judge.
I,m not saying the verses you quoted are not true, but you point to a verse saying what God hates (which is a judgment), and try and make an a absolute rule about lying from it. You then say it isn't absolute because God only judges the heart. ( which I agree with).

I would need to see the context of the Romans verse. But if what you say is true, then who is the innocent blood that God hates being spilled from Proverbs? Actually, I think it is you that is confusing God and man. It is men that slaughter the innocents in the promised land....not God. Either God hates the spilling of innocent blood ( which you say doesn't exist) or he does not. Which is it?
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If morals are not absolute or Gods commands are not absolute then what makes the commandment to love absolute? I never said lying wasnt absolute. I was referring to God sees the heart. What we as humans see may not be the whole picture. For example we see a addict and from outward appearance they may look like a rebellious sinner but on the inside they may be in a constant struggle with God. God sees the heart but that doesn't mean the sins are not still sins.

God was speaking to man about innocent blood. There are 4 laws. Moral, Ceremonial, civil, and judicial.

Moral and Ceremonial law is judged by God. Moral law is the law we all have broken and cursed from Adam.

What God is forbidding is for man to judge unrightiously from a Government civil authority. If a man did not murder but yet we kill him as justice then that is our hands shedding innocent blood.
 
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