Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey

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nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
933
22
18
#1
Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/08/a...-a-spacetime-odyssey.html?hpw&rref=television

In “Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey,” which begins on Sunday, Neil deGrasse Tyson takes the guide-to-the-universe role filled in the original “Cosmos” by Carl Sagan, a man who was so good at popularizing science that the American Astronomical Society awards an annual public-communication medal in his name. The original 13-part series, broadcast on PBS in 1980, has been seen by hundreds of millions of people throughout the world and made a profound impression on many of them.

The new television series will assert that life on other planets must exist. The new series contains over two hours of animated content.
 

nl

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2011
933
22
18
#2
I found a lengthy, well-written analysis on a blog. I won't endorse the overall analysis but I agree with this part:

>>The depth of feeling associated with this exploration, and the missionary-esque purpose behind Sagan's work are what I would classify as "religious" (if you will indulge me), with Cosmos being an "evangelistic" work for science. It is the gospel of the cosmos, and its purpose is gather converts or acolytes, and its opening lines make plain that Sagan his this in mind:
"The Cosmos is all that is or ever was or ever will be. Our feeblest contemplations of the Cosmos stir us — there is a tingling in the spine, a catch in the voice, a faint sensation as if a distant memory, of falling from a height. We know we are approaching the greatest of mysteries."​
One cannot hear these words without automatically juxtaposing them with religious texts like Genesis 1:1's "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" or without calling to mind the archetypal structure of the monotheistic narratives about the universe, man, and time, with the creation, fall, and redemption. By "religious", I mean that Sagan is setting up an alternative narrative in the same cultural space typically reserved for religion. <<

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Link:
a priori blues
 
T

Tintin

Guest
#3
Everything I've heard about this series, points to it to refuting the belief in God and Him creating everything there is. Carl Sagan wasn't exactly a friend of Christian beliefs.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#4
I hate to break it to you but Carl Sagan was wrong. The universe is not "teeming with [biological] life."

Science hadn't yet grasped the significance of nor the extensive list of fine-tuning parameters necessary for biological life of any kind (much less advanced intelligent biological life) and their relationship to statistical probability within the confines of this universe to the degree they do today when Carl was making this assertion.

The probability of a planet anywhere in the universe fitting within all known 153 non-negotiable parameters is approximately 10 to the -194th power. The maximum possible number of planets in the universe is estimated to be 10 to the 22nd power.

Thus, there is less than 1 chance in 10 to the 172th power (100 thousand trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) that even one such planet would occur anywhere in this universe.

One; however, did and there's a reason for it which you can read in Genesis 1.


Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/08/a...-a-spacetime-odyssey.html?hpw&rref=television

In “Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey,” which begins on Sunday, Neil deGrasse Tyson takes the guide-to-the-universe role filled in the original “Cosmos” by Carl Sagan, a man who was so good at popularizing science that the American Astronomical Society awards an annual public-communication medal in his name. The original 13-part series, broadcast on PBS in 1980, has been seen by hundreds of millions of people throughout the world and made a profound impression on many of them.

The new television series will assert that life on other planets must exist. The new series contains over two hours of animated content.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#5
Indeed. In being interviewed for this broadcast, Neil shared that he had his daughter place some money under her pillow to prove to her that the tooth fairy doesn't exist and is now extrapolating that to God doesn't exist.

It's akin to when elementary school teachers in the now defunct state atheistic Soviet Union used to bring in a plant and place it in front of the kids and tell them if God exists, he'll water it. The plant died of water, of course, since they did not water it.

In 'The Dawkins Delusion,' Alister and Joanna Collicutt McGrath respond to this fallaciousness:

"As anyone familiar with antireligious polemics knows, a recurring atheist criticism of religious belief is that it is infantile-a childish delusion which ought to have disappeared as humanity reaches its maturity... that belief in God is just like believing in the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus. These are childish beliefs that are abandoned as soon as we are capable of evidence-based thinking.

Yet the analogy is obviously flawed Those who use this infantile argument have to explain why so many people discover God in later life and certainly do not regard this as representing any kind of regression, perversion or degeneration."

Indeed, what Neil and the teachers in the 20th century did is not science: it is an exercise in fallaciousness. A genuine experiment would be to test Christianity based on what Christianity actually teaches rather than engage in a fallacious exercise that doesn't prove anything other than they have no interest in examining what Christianity actually teaches.

As God gave mankind dominion over nature, it's obvious that He delegated responsibility for watering that plant to the teacher. The teacher was simply amiss in carrying out their God-given responsibility. And, of course, putting money under one's pillow for a non-existent tooth fairy in no way disproves God's existence. It's just an ignorant exercise in infantile fallaciousness, not the "strong contradictory evidence" Dawkins and Neil claim.

And various religious beliefs can be shown to be justifiable without demonstrating that they are proven.

I remember McGrath stating that Gould observed, "Either half my colleagues are enormously stupid, or else the science of Darwinism is fully compatible with conventional religious beliefs-and equally compatible with atheism." Nature can be interpreted in a theistic or in an atheistic way while demanding neither as both are genuine intellectual possibilities
from a scientific perspective.

McGrath went on to further point out that the natural sciences depend on inductive inference, which is a matter of "weighing evidence and judging probability, not of proof." Competing explanations are evident at every level of the human endeavor to represent the world-from the details of quantum mechanics to what Karl Popper termed "ultimate questions" of meaning.

This means that the great questions of life (some of which are also scientific questions) cannot be answered with any degree of certainty. Any given set of observations can be explained by a number of theories. To use the jargon of the philosophy of science: theories are underdetermined by the evidence.

The question then arises: what criteria can be used to decide between them, especially when they are "empirically equivalent"?

An orthodox atheist would simply revert back to a fundamentalist position that favors their atheistic worldview in the exact same manner as a Muslim or a young earth creationist would revert back to a fundamentalist position that favors their particular worldview.

The truth is that given the limits of science: science, philosophy, religion and literature all have a legitimate place in the human quest for truth and meaning. This is a widely held view, both in Western culture at large and even within many sections of the scientific community itself as Gould discovered.

Naturalistic science and other disciplines are not at war. It is the atheist (whose core, incontrovertible, foundational assumption is that there is no God) that places them so and tries to force us to choose between them. Worldviews promoted in such a way leans toward fanaticism and leads them into error based on their own dogma even to the point of absurdity in putting money under a pillow and claiming that shows that God doesn't exist.



Everything I've heard about this series, points to it to refuting the belief in God and Him creating everything there is. Carl Sagan wasn't exactly a friend of Christian beliefs.
 
Mar 1, 2012
1,353
7
0
#6
I don't expect athiests to promote christianity.

I don't see anything in the bible excluding life on other planets ( which could be radically different than our's or just on the microbe level )

The universe is big and while I cannot dispute AgeofKnowledge's statistically claims, life on other planets would not surprise me at all.

After all God is very creative and not reliant on statistics.
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
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#7
God has made foolish the wisdom of the world and the things that are made are not made of the things they appear to be made of! I watched a few minutes and it is the same old (secular) view re-packaged and being re-sold to humanity!
 
M

MarkMulder

Guest
#8
Gravity waves surely don't rock my world, but Jesus DOES!
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#9
I hate to break it to you but Carl Sagan was wrong. The universe is not "teeming with [biological] life."

Science hadn't yet grasped the significance of nor the extensive list of fine-tuning parameters necessary for biological life of any kind (much less advanced intelligent biological life) and their relationship to statistical probability within the confines of this universe to the degree they do today when Carl was making this assertion.

The probability of a planet anywhere in the universe fitting within all known 153 non-negotiable parameters is approximately 10 to the -194th power. The maximum possible number of planets in the universe is estimated to be 10 to the 22nd power.

Thus, there is less than 1 chance in 10 to the 172th power (100 thousand trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion) that even one such planet would occur anywhere in this universe.

One; however, did and there's a reason for it which you can read in Genesis 1.

Youre assuming that life could only function as we know it in the universe. Which is extremely arrogant to think any possible species would require the same things we do.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#10
I understand your point. However, I also understand my point. Carbon-based life requires a strict set of conditions for any life whatsoever to survive for any material length of time and of the 118 known chemical elements: only carbon possesses sufficiently complex chemical behavior to sustain living systems. You can forget about silicon, arsenic, etc...

Biological systems are enormously complex. The genome of an E. coli bacterium has about two million nucleotides. A single human cell contains the equivalent of about six billion nucleotides. And, unlike inorganic systems, the sequence of how they are assembled is critical for biological system survival. I could go on for hours.

We've come a long way since Sagan. We've finished the periodic table of elements (except for some elements created in particle accelerators that only exist for nanoseconds from smashing atoms together) and can see all the way back into time when light first separated from darkness. We know the parameters of the universe. We understand how it formed and to a large degree how it works. We know what elements comprise it except for dark matter. We can determine exact minimum parameters for life systems and calculate their probabilities.

I'm not saying there's not more to discover, of course, because there is. Certainly. But what I am saying is that I personally don't see chemical elementally based extraterrestrial advanced intelligent life in the known universe outside of carbon based life and the odds for that have already been calculated.


Youre assuming that life could only function as we know it in the universe. Which is extremely arrogant to think any possible species would require the same things we do.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
6,488
53
48
#11
youre still putting forth the same point that because WE happened to be carbon-based all life in the universe would be? Im thinking the assumption that life out there would be anything remotely close to us is almost laughable, look at the wide spread of species just on this planet. Just because we cant do it, doesnt mean there arent say nitrogen based life forms out there millions of miles away.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
#12
No, I am not. You're not providing competent feedback to even what I'm posting which shows that you don't even comprehend the topic properly.

Science fiction and science are two different things Nautilus.

Your imagination and ignorance does not equate to non-spiritual (e.g. materialistic) extraterrestrial advanced life actually existing elsewhere in the universe just because emotionally, in your ignorance, you feel that it must.

This is NOT real Nautilus:



At one time biologists speculated that extraterrestrial life might be based on exotic chemistry, not on carbon as earthly life is. Biochemists quickly determined, however, that the only elements other than carbon from which adequately complex molecules can be constructed are silicon and boron. Nitrogen didn't qualify.

The problem with silicon is that it can only hold together a string of no more than a hundred amino acids-far too short and everywhere in the universe boron is less abundant than carbon but more importantly boron in concentration enough to host a life system is toxic to life-critical reactions.

Read physicist Robert Dicke for a nicely stated explanation for lay people how physicists also assert that life must be carbon-based from physicist perspective as well. .

Here's the question answered in a politically correct nice way: Non-Carbon Based Life Forms


youre still putting forth the same point that because WE happened to be carbon-based all life in the universe would be? Im thinking the assumption that life out there would be anything remotely close to us is almost laughable, look at the wide spread of species just on this planet. Just because we cant do it, doesnt mean there arent say nitrogen based life forms out there millions of miles away.