Fundamentalism vs. Orthodoxy

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T

TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#1
I read this FABULOUS blog about >>>Why Fundamentalism is Not Orthodoxy<<<. I have had this conversation in here before with many people, and I have not been nearly so eloquent, scholarly, or authoritative as the author of this blog. I offer his comments for discussion. I also want to get the book to which he refers.

Anyone?
 
M

meecha

Guest
#2
I read this FABULOUS blog about >>>Why Fundamentalism is Not Orthodoxy<<<. I have had this conversation in here before with many people, and I have not been nearly so eloquent, scholarly, or authoritative as the author of this blog. I offer his comments for discussion. I also want to get the book to which he refers.

Anyone?
A "theological" basis for declaring that you can make it up as you go? Scripture must be understood in the context of our paradigms so we are the authority that Scripture must conform to.

It is certainly true that fundermentalism has ceased to mean inerrancy but that is a shame. There is a certain type of wooden literalism that claims the title of fundermentalist that I would not endorse; namely Dispensationalism; but fundermentalism is adherence to the fundermental creeds of Christianity. Is the Apostles Creed "fundermentalist"?

Particually interesting that the "historicity" of the Ressurection is up for grabs. Did you sneek that one in or is it one you are particually proud of?
 
C

Crossfire

Guest
#3
There is a certain type of wooden literalism that claims the title of fundermentalist that I would not endorse; namely Dispensationalism; but fundermentalism is adherence to the fundermental creeds of Christianity.
I agree with this statement. While I am Premilennial, I am not Dispensational and while I do believe that scripture should be taken literally, there are those who take it too far. In my opinion, Cessationism is a prime example of hyper-literalism.
 
T

TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#4
A "theological" basis for declaring that you can make it up as you go?
Ummm ... no, that's not what the article was getting at. It is not so much a "theological" basis as a "historical" basis, and it is absolutely not "making it up as you go." The main thrust of the article was that it was NOT up to individual interpretation, but based on the consensus of the community.

Scripture must be understood in the context of our paradigms so we are the authority that Scripture must conform to.
Now I'm assuming you think this is what the article is saying, and this is not what you yourself believe?

If it is what you personally believe, then I must answer with a resounding NO NO NO NO NO!!! We conform to Scripture, not the other way around!

If you're saying this is what you think the article is saying, then again, I say no. The article is not saying that at all. Scripture IS absolutely authoritative. What the article disagrees with is how fundamentalism has interpreted Scripture, and how that interpretation is modern, does not conform to the authority of the history of Christianity, and does not submit to the thousands of years of scholarship that preceded it.

Look, if you want to believe that the Bible is literal, that is your right. I won't tell you you're "not allowed" to believe that. What I will tell you ... and what I and other scholars have been trying to tell you -- is that you are not following the Christian tradition that for 2,000 years has understood Scripture in more than literal terms. You can follow any religion you wish. I only take issue when you somehow think your version is somehow "more correct" than mine. I have thousands of years of support. You have just barely 100. Again, I'm not saying it's wrong just because it's new; just don't go deluding yourself that yours is "traditional" and ours is "modern." It is quite the other way around.

It is certainly true that fundermentalism has ceased to mean inerrancy but that is a shame.
I'm not sure what "fundermentalism" is. If you're purposely making fun of the term "fundamentalism," I don't get it. If it was just a typo, then never mind.

I don't think "fundamentalism" can ever be applied to a system that doesn't accept literal interpretation of Scripture. Evangelicals may indeed turn away from fundamentalism, but the term "fundamentalism" is kinda defined as, among other things, that belief.

By the way and for the record, the term "inerrancy" is misleading. We traditionalists don't believe the Bible is "wrong;" we also hold Scripture as "inerrant." We just interpret many passages differently than you do .... tending to go allegorical where you would go literal, though many traditionalists accept a literal translation of Scripture where fundamentalists say it's figurative. I can give you some examples if you like.

but fundermentalism is adherence to the fundermental creeds of Christianity. Is the Apostles Creed "fundermentalist"?
There's that word again. Since you've typed it wrong three times, I have to assume you're not talking about "fundAmentalism," but about something else, spelling it the way you do? Can you ... or maybe someone else ... enlighten me on what the difference is between "fundamentalism" and "fundermentalism"? Like I said, if it was just written that way once, I'd say it's just a typo and move on, but it's spelled that way three times, so I'm really confused.

Particually interesting that the "historicity" of the Ressurection is up for grabs. Did you sneek that one in or is it one you are particually proud of?
I didn't "sneak" anything in. I do not know the author of this blog. He is a colleague of a colleague of mine, but he and I have never met, I doubt he has ever heard of me (I'm not nearly as published as he is), and I hadn't heard of him before my colleague brought this to my attention.

For the record, I personally believe the resurrection is literal. I know many devout Christians who do not. I disagree with them. That doesn't make them any less Christian than you or me. After all, Scripture disagrees with a lot of ideas fundamentalists have, and I wouldn't say that makes them any less Christian.
 
M

meecha

Guest
#5
There's that word again. Since you've typed it wrong three times, I have to assume you're not talking about "fundAmentalism," but about something else, spelling it the way you do? Can you ... or maybe someone else ... enlighten me on what the difference is between "fundamentalism" and "fundermentalism"? Like I said, if it was just written that way once, I'd say it's just a typo and move on, but it's spelled that way three times, so I'm really confused.
my apologies..simply my appalling spelling:D
 
M

meecha

Guest
#6
Ummm ... no, that's not what the article was getting at. It is not so much a "theological" basis as a "historical" basis, and it is absolutely not "making it up as you go." The main thrust of the article was that it was NOT up to individual interpretation, but based on the consensus of the community.
If the community means the Church then I would be prepared to consider some of the arguments but it is not for the "community" to create a consensus. Doctrine is grounded in the teaching of the Apostles. Those doctrines are summed up in the early Creeds. Those Creeds are the orthodox teaching of the Church. The Early Church fathers( an unfortunate term I admit) wrote in the second,third and fourth centuries and by the time we get to Nicea the Christian faith is still "fundamentalist".

So this statement

CCC: Focuses on the meaning of the resurrection
F: Focuses on the historicity of the resurrection [to the neglect of its meaning]
is simply false. The reason we have had to focus on the historicity of the Resurrection is because that historicity has been challenged from within the Church. Without the historic Resurrection Paul says our faith is ridiculous....we are to be pitied above all men for we believe in a dead Christ.


For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.


CCC: Longevity: two millenia
F: Longevity: Since the 1895 Niagara Conference

see above. Of course it depends on what you catagorize as Fundamentalism. If Fundamentalism is wooden literalism as per Dispy futurism then yes ...I agree ...it is a modern departure from orthodoxy but the belief in an historical resurrection has been the orthodox position from day 1.

CCC: Has lived thorugh and beyond hundreds of alleged modernities
F: A defensive response to particular challenges nineteenth-century "modernity," especially Darwin and rising secular humanism
I pretty much agree with the article here as far as it goes. Liberals in the Church embraced modernism and Darwinism and as a result Genesis, particually the first eleven chapters became subject to allogorical interpretation and the seven day creation was no longer understood as a literal seven days. Jesus never hints at anything other than a literal interpretation of Genesis and I am not aware of any major work of theology prior to the 19th century that sees Genesis as anything other than the book of origins.

CCC: Confident through historical change based on historic experience [i.e. don't panic! God is in control]
F: Often expecting the worst from the human future [i.e. the sky is falling!]
Agree as a description of Dispy Futurism.


CCC: Recognition of metaphor and varieties of expression of inspired doctrine in Scripture
F: Single legitimate interpretation of each text
agree in principle but this is not a hermaneutical law. Exegesis must proceed from context. eg The book of Kings describes the "literal" death of Saul and Jonathon. Ps 18 describes the same event "spiritually". It is important to recognise metaphor,idiom and hyperbole when the Bible employs them but it is equally important to recognise historical narrative as "literal". Jesus' resurrection is a literal event and the Church has never said otherwise.

CCC: Texts viewed within historic contexts
F: Texts viewed apart from historic contexts
definitley a feature of Dispy Futurism.





By the way and for the record, the term "inerrancy" is misleading. We traditionalists don't believe the Bible is "wrong;" we also hold Scripture as "inerrant." We just interpret many passages differently than you do .... tending to go allegorical where you would go literal, though many traditionalists accept a literal translation of Scripture where fundamentalists say it's figurative. I can give you some examples if you like.
we would need to go into specific examples here as we may actually agree


For the record, I personally believe the resurrection is literal. I know many devout Christians who do not. I disagree with them. That doesn't make them any less Christian than you or me. After all, Scripture disagrees with a lot of ideas fundamentalists have, and I wouldn't say that makes them any less Christian.
I'm relieved to hear you affirm the literal resurrection but I differ fundamentally with regard to said "devout Christians". To disagree with the historical resurrection is heresy. It violates the historical record here.

John 20
24 Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin,[d] was not with them when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, &#8220;We have seen the Lord.&#8221; But he said to them, &#8220;Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.&#8221;
26 Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, &#8220;Peace be with you.&#8221; 27 Then he said to Thomas, &#8220;Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.&#8221; 28 Thomas answered him, &#8220;My Lord and my God!&#8221; 29 Jesus said to him, &#8220;Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.&#8221;

and again

Luke 20
27 There came to him some Sadducees, those who deny that there is a resurrection,

I have numerous issues with Dispy fundamentalists but I would not describe them as heretics. Someone who denies the resurrection however undermines the faith of the brethren. The resurrection is everything.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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#7
I have a problem with fundamentalism and legalism for one reason; extremism.

When one stops deciphering meaning and takes blind faith, religion becomes extremely dangerous.
 
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#8
I will only settle for legalistic viewpoints on things such as blatant commands. 'Thou shalt not kill'. Love thy neighbour. The book is one giant guide on how to live and if ever you find a contradiction, then one needs to look for meaning. Never accept a contradiction, because it means there's something we aren't getting.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#9
Liberals in the Church embraced modernism and Darwinism and as a result Genesis, particually the first eleven chapters became subject to allogorical interpretation and the seven day creation was no longer understood as a literal seven days. Jesus never hints at anything other than a literal interpretation of Genesis and I am not aware of any major work of theology prior to the 19th century that sees Genesis as anything other than the book of origins.
Then your education is lacking. The early church father absolutely understood Genesis as allegory rather than biology. Hebrew teachers long before the time of Jesus taught that it was allegory rather than wooden literalism. Since Jesus was raised "a good Jew," as they say, it is a given that he understood Genesis the same way his culture did: as an allegory. You might be interested in reading some Hebrew scholars on understanding Genesis in its context. Hillel is the first that comes to mind, but there are dozens more ... of course I can't think of any names at the moment, and I am at home now, because the office (where all my theology books are) is not air conditioned. I'll do some digging and get back to you if you are interested in this.

In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a any writing prior to about 1850 that would even try to suggest a literal interpretation of Genesis. The idea that it might have been literal is extremely recent, and so mind-bogglingly new that the Church Fathers (understood ... yes, they were all men, so far as we know) wouldn't have even had to mention it.

There are so many similar examples today. You've heard the expression, "For Pete's sake." Well, that's just an expression. No one would think to ask, "Who's this 'Pete' person? Is this some great teacher of the 20th Century? Some sage or political leader?" But you could imagine, perhaps, 2,000 years from now, someone might dig up a book from today, and see the expression, "For Pete's sake," and they might ask those exact questions. Well, of course there's not going to be any reference anywhere that says, "Oh, and by the way, there is no "Pete," it's just an expression." It's not written down anywhere because we all know that "For Pete's sake" is just an expression.

In the same way, the way that Genesis was written, especially in its original language (and if you haven't read it in Hebrew yet, you owe it to yourself to learn Hebrew, if for no other reason than to read the first 11 chapters of Genesis) it's just known that it was allegory. Genesis has the Hebrew equivalent of "Once Upon a Time" at the front of it. Everyone reading it in Hebrew would have known that it was a story. They wouldn't have had to explain it to anyone.

The Apostles knew it, and passed that teaching down to the Church Fathers. The Church Fathers passed that teaching down to The Church. And that has been the teaching of The Church ever since ... until about 1850ish. Then, all of a sudden, a few American Bible students decided they should be allowed to interpret Scripture without the aid of the Church Fathers. Their argument was that Jesus is the only intermediary we need, and if it's important enough, it'll be in the Bible, with or without the "Church Fathers" teaching. Well, it's a nice thought, but they took it too far. I'm all for re-examining tradition. There are plenty of "traditions" that were handed down that are NOT necessarily orthodox. How to dress, what to eat, etc. But ignoring tradition just because it is tradition is throwing out the baby with the baptismal water.

And that is exactly what the founders of the fundamentalist movement did. They ignored the teachings of the Church Fathers, read Scripture without knowledge of what had been handed down, and insisted that their interpretation was "more correct" than the traditional one.

How it was able to catch on as it did, and become the "accepted teaching," I do not know. I've read a million books (oh, okay, maybe a half dozen) about this very topic. So far they've been great books, but none have really answered that question. That's why I'm looking forward to reading this one, and see what this new writer, whose work I have not yet read, has to say.

we would need to go into specific examples here as we may actually agree
The most famous example is from just after the Reformation.

As you may have learned in your Church History class, Luther originally did not want to fracture the church. His first attempt was to correct the corruption from within. When it became clear that the Pope would not accept his criticisms, that's when the Schism became more certain, and today, there are still things Catholics and Lutherans disagree on (although the number of doctrines that differ is shrinking ... I like to say they are "Roaming" Catholics.... ) ANYWAY....

Flash forward a decade or two. Luther's new church, the "Evangelical Movement" has really caught hold in Germany, and now other countries want a piece of the action. Enter Zwingli. There are some GREAT translations of the debates between Luther and Zwingli available at any Christian bookstore. Anyway, Zwingli took the split one step further: Eucharist.

See, Catholics believe that the bread and wine in which they partake at Communion is actually Jesus' flesh and blood. Lutherans believe a very similar theology: Catholics call it "transubstantiation" -- the earthly elements become the holy substances, retaining their form of bread and wine but becoming in substance flesh and blood. Lutherans say it's "consubstantiation" -- Jesus' body and blood is present "in, with, and under" the earthly elements of bread and wine. There are very few churches today who still accept this teaching. Most churches believe that communion is a "symbol." The elements of bread and wine "symbolize" Jesus' body and blood. Zwingli was the first who went there.

Luther vehemently disagreed. "Is means Is!" he said. "Jesus said, this IS my body, given for you. He didn't say, this REPRESENTS my body, or this SYMBOLIZES my body, he said this IS my body."

Virtually every Christian today (with the exception of Catholics, Lutherans, and Episcopalians ... please forgive me if I've forgotten anyone out there) believes that Jesus was being figurative when he said "This is my body."

The Church Fathers taught that it was not figurative. It was absolutely LITERAL. I believe that, too. When I take communion, and the priest hands me that wafer ... okay, I admit, I have a little trouble believing that small white disk is really BREAD, but I DO believe that it is Jesus body, broken for me, just like the Bible says.

As I've said before, and will almost certainly say again, you can believe it's figurative if you want. I support your right to celebrate a symbolic communion rather than accepting the literalism of those words. Just be aware that your interpretation isn't the only one.

And, just as your interpretation is figurative, even though Jesus didn't say, "This is my body, but okay, it isn't really my body, it's just representing my body, and we're all going to just pretend that for now, okay?" you understand that is what Jesus meant.

Similarly, when God said, "Once upon a time .... " Well, that's my cue that what follows is probably not a literal reiteration of historical events, but a story. A very IMPORTANT story. Maybe the most important story ever, and I would go so far to say that this story is more important than any historical event you can find. In fact, to me (and those who understand Scripture this way, with me), seeing it as mere history is degrading it, making it so much less than what it is.

We love Scripture too much to see it as just literal.
 
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#10
I have a really, possibly weird question. I am a pretty intelligent and educated person, but in my limited wisdom, I fail to see why the way in which one breaks bread has ANYTHING to do with how we love our neighbours and fulfil all God's commands. Similarly, it doesn't really seem to have too much bearing on how we love God, seeing as, well, God really only wants us to love each other and that is pleasing to Him.

I read the bible and I see plain ways of living:

Patience, understanding, kindness, the ability to be reserved, self sacrifice for the good of others, respect for God and all his creations, thanksgiving, forgiveness, approchability, blamelessness, good-intent, workmanship, hope for humanity, faith and trust in God.

Surely religious rituals are BOUND to be different, whether through linguistic misinterpretation, or somewhere down the line something is changed slightly, someone comes up with a 'better idea', there is dispute over the origins of the rituals, but it isn't really the rituals that matter. The core ideals of Jesus teachings are always going to be the same. To love thy neighbour as thyself and love God with all your heart. God is the teachings. He's everything. And we love Him by loving each other. So surely, that is all we need to do. Just love each other. And thank God.

Love brings it's own circle of faith, of trust, of hope, tenderness, compassion, kindness, wisdom. It brings all those things with it.
 
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#11
But the more I read into fine detail religious sects, denominational habits etc. the more I think 'how stupid that people judge and hate over these ideals'. (not saying you are doing that, but it's so silly).
 
T

TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#12
I have a really, possibly weird question. I am a pretty intelligent and educated person, but in my limited wisdom, I fail to see why the way in which one breaks bread has ANYTHING to do with how we love our neighbours and fulfil all God's commands. Similarly, it doesn't really seem to have too much bearing on how we love God, seeing as, well, God really only wants us to love each other and that is pleasing to Him.
It doesn't. That's why I don't judge others for having doctrine different from my own. Being a Christian doesn't mean you check the right boxes on a list of beliefs. Being a Christian means you submit to Jesus. Submitting Jesus simply means two things: (1) Love God. (2) Love your neighbor. If you've got those two things down, you're a Christian, no matter what other beliefs you have. If you think handling poisonous snakes will bring you closer to God, go for it. Better you than me. If you need to have incense tickling your nostrils before you feel ready to pray, then come on, baby, light my fire.

Surely religious rituals are BOUND to be different, whether through linguistic misinterpretation, or somewhere down the line something is changed slightly, someone comes up with a 'better idea', there is dispute over the origins of the rituals, but it isn't really the rituals that matter.
Amen! The rituals are all just human things we put on. Jesus doesn't really care about that, as long as our heart is in the right place. At least, that's what the Prophets all said, even before Jesus came to show us the way.
 
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meecha

Guest
#13
Then your education is lacking. The early church father absolutely understood Genesis as allegory rather than biology. Hebrew teachers long before the time of Jesus taught that it was allegory rather than wooden literalism.

I don't believe you. Give me some proof that the ECF taught Genesis as allegory. Give me anything from Polycarp, Iraneus, Ignatius,Clement or Origen for starters. Give me quotes from Luther and Calvin.
I already checked Matthew Henry, John Gill and Adam Clarke and there is nothing remotely akin in their works to suggest an allegorical view of Gen 1


Since Jesus was raised "a good Jew," as they say, it is a given that he understood Genesis the same way his culture did: as an allegory
classic Begging the Q. Having "established" that "Hebrew teachers long before the time of Jesus taught that it was allegory rather than wooden literalism".....oh ...wait ...you didn't establish this at all....you merely claimed it and then having "established" this apparent "allegorical tradition" you made Jesus conform to it like a "good Jew".
By faith ( Heb 11) Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he was commended as righteous, God commending him by accepting his gifts. And through his faith, though he died, he still speaks......And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets. Hebrews see's all these men as literal historical figures. Abel is as historical as Samson and David.


You might be interested in reading some Hebrew scholars on understanding Genesis in its context. Hillel is the first that comes to mind
Yes I would be really interested in reading Hillel on Genesis...please oblige me with some quotes



but there are dozens more ... of course I can't think of any names at the moment, and I am at home now, because the office (where all my theology books are) is not air conditioned. I'll do some digging and get back to you if you are interested in this.
ok I look forward to it


In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a any writing prior to about 1850 that would even try to suggest a literal interpretation of Genesis. The idea that it might have been literal is extremely recent, and so mind-bogglingly new that the Church Fathers (understood ... yes, they were all men, so far as we know) wouldn't have even had to mention it.
The text and narrative of Genesis 1-11 is so mind bogglingly clear that the onus is on you to show me that the words mean something other than what they say. Again you practice shameless question begging in your claim that the ECF took the allegorical view viz insinuating that I and others are ignorami for not understanding the "underlying allegory" that is so apparently obvious.


Genesis has the Hebrew equivalent of "Once Upon a Time" at the front of it. Everyone reading it in Hebrew would have known that it was a story. They wouldn't have had to explain it to anyone.
please direct me to a source for the claim that Bereshit means "once upon a time".


The Apostles knew it, and passed that teaching down to the Church Fathers. The Church Fathers passed that teaching down to The Church. And that has been the teaching of The Church ever since ... until about 1850ish
do you claim that Luther and Calvin taught an allegorical view of Gen 1-11?
 
T

TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#14
I don't believe you. Give me some proof that the ECF taught Genesis as allegory.
Here are a few links to sites you might be interested in:

Interpreting the Days of Genesis Allegorically in the Early Church « Austin's Blog
Genesis As Allegory - My Jewish Learning
How was the Genesis account of creation interpreted before Darwin? | BioLogos
On the Creation. Allegorical Interpretation of Genesis 2 and 3 &mdash; Philo | Harvard University Press
No Contest - Why the Argument Over Genesis? | Grace Communion International

That's just stuff online ... if you want to look at some "real" scholarship, I recommend the following:
  • Augustine's Confessions, in which he discusses a few possible literal interpretations of Genesis, and then rejects them all for the preferred allegorical interpretation.
  • You mentioned Origen, who similarly discusses the idiocy (I don't remember what the Latin word was ... I had to read the original for class, but that was the best translation we, as a class, could come up with) of limiting God to six 24-hour days ... that was in one of his "Principals of Faith" tretices ... I forget which one.
  • For Jewish scholarship, Philo was a Jew and also educated in Greek classic literature just before the time of Christ, and his writings would be key to understanding what Jesus believed. Philo taught an allegorical understanding of Genesis. I'm sure you can find his works in any good theological library. Also of note would be Rabbi Bahya ben Asher, from 11th century Spain. As for Hillel, you should be able to find that in your library as well.
Let me know if you need more.

do you claim that Luther and Calvin taught an allegorical view of Gen 1-11?
Luther, absolutely. I have not studied Calvin in enough depth to be able to say with certainty one way or another. I'm sure there are other theologians who know his work better than I do who could answer that question. Among the multi-volume "Luther's Works," are included hundreds of his sermons, many of which discuss the allegorical interpretations of Scripture. They are available in good English translations if your German isn't up to snuff.

Happy reading!
 
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edward99

Guest
#15
Luther, absolutely. I have not studied Calvin in enough depth to be able to say with certainty one way or another. I'm sure there are other theologians who know his work better than I do who could answer that question. Among the multi-volume "Luther's Works," are included hundreds of his sermons, many of which discuss the allegorical interpretations of Scripture. They are available in good English translations if your German isn't up to snuff.

Happy reading!
Let's see your documentation on Luther.
The subject was creation, was it not?




The biblical scholar and Protestant reformer, Martin Luther believed in Creation and taught that the world was young. For example, Luther stated,

&#8220;We know from Moses that the world was not in existence before 6,000 years ago.&#8221;

Luther insisted that Moses wrote about Creation in normal, literal language.
&#8220;He [Moses] calls 'a spade a spade,' i.e., he employs the terms 'day' and 'evening' without Allegory, just as we customarily do we assert that Moses spoke in the literal sense, not allegorically or figuratively, i.e., that the world, with all its creatures, was created within six days, as the words read. If we do not comprehend the reason for this, let us remain pupils and leave the job of teacher to the Holy Spirit.&#8221;

REFERENCE

Martin Luther in Jaroslav Peliken, editor, &#8220;Luther's Works,&#8221; Lectures on Genesis Chapters 1-5, Vol. 1 (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1958), pp. 3, 6.
 
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TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#16
Martin Luther in Jaroslav Peliken, editor, “Luther's Works,” Lectures on Genesis Chapters 1-5, Vol. 1 (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1958), pp. 3, 6.
You took that grossly out of context. Continuing this discussion is useless if you are going to ignore the words and purposely edit out those things that deny your point. I don't know if you read the whole passage, and just quoted that bit purposely misleading, or if you honestly don't realize the point of that one paragraph is setting up a contradiction. Either way, if this is what passes for scholarship, I can see now there is no point in providing you any further evidence.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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#17
I read this FABULOUS blog about >>>Why Fundamentalism is Not Orthodoxy<<<. I have had this conversation in here before with many people, and I have not been nearly so eloquent, scholarly, or authoritative as the author of this blog. I offer his comments for discussion. I also want to get the book to which he refers.

Anyone?
Can't see what is particularly "fabulous" about that post, although it pretty accurately points out very shortly the major differences between the two "camps". The most annoying thing to me with fundamentalism is its handling of "history" and its anachronisms (possibly a result of its literalism). However orthodoxy's handling of tradition is far from problem free and leaves room for dispute.
 
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edward99

Guest
#18
You took that grossly out of context. Continuing this discussion is useless if you are going to ignore the words and purposely edit out those things that deny your point. I don't know if you read the whole passage, and just quoted that bit purposely misleading, or if you honestly don't realize the point of that one paragraph is setting up a contradiction. Either way, if this is what passes for scholarship, I can see now there is no point in providing you any further evidence.
Take a pill Diva.
If you're too snobby to post what you're talking about, why bring it up?
Get specific.

You made assertions, so why not back them up if asked?
Nothing was "taken out of context" - I posted a paragraph summary of Luther's understanding of the creation account, assuming you'd then post your documentation on allegory.


Do you want Luther's entire treatises posted and here by me?
Or do you want to fetch the "allegorical" teachings you need for your argument?

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Luther's Works vol. 1: Lectures on Genesis Chapters 1-5

Author: Martin Luther
Publisher: Concordia
Publication Date: 1958
Pages: 387
The Reformer’s lectures on the first book of Moses must be numbered among the great works in the field of exegetical writing. Unlike many scholars who have undertaken to expound Genesis, Luther is not afraid to adhere strictly to the letter of what Moses wrote. He does not indulge in wild allegories. He does not tear words or sentences out of their context. He knows that Genesis is the Word of God. Therefore he approaches the book with awe and reverence. His is a genuinely Christian commentary.

This volume discusses Genesis 1—5, including the Creation, the Fall, the First Brothers, and the line of Adam.


Luther's Works vol. 2: Lectures on Genesis Chapters 6-14

Author: Martin Luther
Publisher: Concordia
Publication Date: 1960
Pages: 433
Luther’s Lectures on Genesis is a great classic in the field of theological literature. These discourses are clear, vigorous, pertinent, and comprehensive. They reveal vast learning as well as extraordinary ability to expound Scripture in a manner that is intelligible to everyone. Regarding style and method, Luther himself states that in his youth he was “enchanted” by allegories. Consequently, he sometimes resorts to allegorical interpretations when he expounds the Book of Genesis, though always in a manner that is “conformable to the faith.”

Lectures on Genesis: Chapters 6–14 deal with the Flood, with Noah and his descendants, with the Tower of Babel, and with Abram and Lot up to the time of Abram’s vision and the promise of the Seed.

GO FOR IT, DIVA!:)

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As for scholarship, Grunge, let's be accurate about yours (to your credit you admit it): "higher" criticism - read: liberalism.
 
T

TheGrungeDiva

Guest
#19
The most annoying thing to me with fundamentalism is its handling of "history" and its anachronisms (possibly a result of its literalism).
Perhaps you can talk some sense into our brothers in this thread, then, because I give up.

However orthodoxy's handling of tradition is far from problem free and leaves room for dispute.
Oh, of course. We're all going to fall short this side of paradise. For my money, however, I'll take orthodoxy over fundamentalism any day of the week ... especially Sunday :)
 
M

meecha

Guest
#20
The most annoying thing to me with fundamentalism is its handling of "history" and its anachronisms (possibly a result of its literalism).


I actually agree with this statement ...where grunge and I differ is that she thinks the historical resurrection is up for grabs or at least that it's a respectable position within orthodoxy.
The synoptic gospels and Acts are history and they require a literal grammatical approach as the starting point for interpreting them. Clearly when we get to Revelation we are not to interpret it's symbols literally as the fundies wish to.