GOP Presidential Nomination

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Dec 18, 2013
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#21
So imperfection in the face of an ideal makes the ideal not worth pursuing? Especially if said ideal is, in fact, doable with some augmentation?

The United States Constitution is by no means scripture. It's a foundational legal document and the men who crafted it had a better grasp of human nature and, in some ways, divine nature than we do today. If we treated the document for what it is, there would be less of a tendency to view it in such stark, absolutist terms that we do today.
Aye, the ideals of the US Constitution is not worth pursuing. For it has become obsolete long ago and is therefore a vanity and all vanity must one day perish. Therefore it makes no sense to gain the dystopia promised by the US Constitution (if it were even possible) only to have it perish by fire.

To use an analogy. Let us say there is a certain corporation. This corporation promises to be the most lucrative corporation in the world and to make its shareholders wealthy. However, the board has all ready rendered the mission statement of the corporation obsolete and have all ready made its shares worthless. What point then is there to invest in the corporation?
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
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#22
And good gravy. I want to know why people think Hillary is such a juggernaut. Were we all sleeping in 2008?
It's not that Hillary can not be defeated. Obama did that.

The problem is that the Republican candidates will do the everything in their power to defeat themselves.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
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#23
Aye, the ideals of the US Constitution is not worth pursuing. For it has become obsolete long ago and is therefore a vanity and all vanity must one day perish. Therefore it makes no sense to gain the dystopia promised by the US Constitution (if it were even possible) only to have it perish by fire.
Do expect to find perfection before the apocalypse?

To use an analogy. Let us say there is a certain corporation. This corporation promises to be the most lucrative corporation in the world and to make its shareholders wealthy. However, the board has all ready rendered the mission statement of the corporation obsolete and have all ready made its shares worthless. What point then is there to invest in the corporation?
Not adequate. You're comparing apples and oranges. Civil law is not comparable to a mission statement. It is something worth reviving even if civilizations failed to completely hold to it.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
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#24
It's not that Hillary can not be defeated. Obama did that.

The problem is that the Republican candidates will do the everything in their power to defeat themselves.
Well I cannot argue that I see an operation that matches Obama's 2008 and 2012 machines, but there is no reason to be quite that pessimistic about the field.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#25
And good gravy. I want to know why people think Hillary is such a juggernaut. Were we all sleeping in 2008?
Funny enough Hillary did get the most votes. The matter of Obama winning the most delegates was also highly dubious. Many people forget about the Superdelegates and that only half of Florida and Michigan's delegates were counted. It is no surprise either that at that time a very secret meeting between Obama and Clinton took place (which is still secret even to this day.)
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#26
Do expect to find perfection before the apocalypse?



Not adequate. You're comparing apples and oranges. Civil law is not comparable to a mission statement. It is something worth reviving even if civilizations failed to completely hold to it.
What is there to expect of the world besides its end?

I have made for you an analogy. The corporation is the analogy of the nation. The promises and mission statement compared to the Constitution. The shareholders to the citizen. The board is compared to the government. The value of the shares compared to the destiny of America.

For what point is there to invest in a failed corporation? Will you not lose your money and the corporation fold anyways?
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#27
i would rearrange it like this...

tier one...
mitt romney
jeb bush
rand paul

tier two...
chris christie
scott walker
rick perry
marco rubio
mike huckabee

tier three...
ted cruz
bobby jindal
rick santorum
ben carson
john kasich

non starters...
carly fiorina
mike pence

scott walker could easily move up into the first tier soon...rick perry would need more work but he could do the same...chris christie would have been in the first tier two or three years ago but his unpopularity with the republican base moves him down to the second tier...although he has the potential to move back up to the first tier...

ted cruz is too damaged in the field of public opinion to be anything other than a kamikaze nominee...and ben carson is popular but has never governed anything in his life...mike pence is a non starter because for most americans he will never be anything more than 'mike who?' and carly fiorina is 'that person who keeps running for stuff in california and losing miserably'

for the record this list has nothing to do with my approval of any of these candidates...i like some of the candidates that i listed in the third tier and i am totally against one of the candidates i listed in the first tier...
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
8,768
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#28
Funny enough Hillary did get the most votes. The matter of Obama winning the most delegates was also highly dubious. Many people forget about the Superdelegates and that only half of Florida and Michigan's delegates were counted. It is no surprise either that at that time a very secret meeting between Obama and Clinton took place (which is still secret even to this day.)
Why would she relent to such a meeting (if there was a meeting) if in she was in such a strong position?

What is there to expect of the world besides its end?

I have made for you an analogy. The corporation is the analogy of the nation. The promises and mission statement compared to the Constitution. The shareholders to the citizen. The board is compared to the government. The value of the shares compared to the destiny of America.

For what point is there to invest in a failed corporation? Will you not lose your money and the corporation fold anyways?
We should expect that the world to persist until its end. That calls for us to make the best of what we have and maintain an order that emphasizes the good elements of human nature while discouraging the bad ones. Until then, we cannot expect absolute perfection.

That is what a constitution is for...on a fundamental basis anyhow.

A country is not a corporation. A constitution is even less comparable to a mission statement. A country's citizens do not make something comparable to a monetary investment, but something more basic. They expect law and order to be upheld.

The argument you appear to be making is that the answer to lawlessness is more lawlessness. That if people will not obey the law to the letter, we are better off with cashing in our chips and letting anarchy reign along with the tyranny that follows it.

That isn't Biblical.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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#29
The problem is the whole process in itself. We have these 'primaries' where each party picks the most extreme example of their philosophy. Then these two extremes go head to head where one loses and the other wins. Then we all sit back and scratch our heads wondering when did we all become so polarized? The process in itself breeds polarization. Which is a big factor in why we are so screwed up now.

The second process is the electorate itself. These days you can bet on people voting against their own self interest. This last election was proof of that. Since the Dems were elected (and I'm no fan let me say that) we've ended 2 unpopular wars, cut unemployment nearly in half, recovered the stock market to record highs, and made it possible for those without health insurance to get some. What's the electorates response to that? Dang, we need to throw these bums out and put in the other guys.

Expect the Republicans to do their usual... make promises they won't keep, coddle the uber rich, and walk away with a big win in '16.




And again, I'm no fan of the Dems either. Frankly you're wasting your vote to elect either side.
 
Dec 18, 2013
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#30
Why would she relent to such a meeting (if there was a meeting) if in she was in such a strong position?



We should expect that the world to persist until its end. That calls for us to make the best of what we have and maintain an order that emphasizes the good elements of human nature while discouraging the bad ones. Until then, we cannot expect absolute perfection.

That is what a constitution is for...on a fundamental basis anyhow.

A country is not a corporation. A constitution is even less comparable to a mission statement. A country's citizens do not make something comparable to a monetary investment, but something more basic. They expect law and order to be upheld.

The argument you appear to be making is that the answer to lawlessness is more lawlessness. That if people will not obey the law to the letter, we are better off with cashing in our chips and letting anarchy reign along with the tyranny that follows it.

That isn't Biblical.
In regards to Hillary, the Superdelegates did indeed it seems sway that election. Nevertheless due to Hillary's prominence in the party, and because of the urgency of that time a deal had to be made. Perhaps just a fun little 2008 factbite and how the 2008 Democrat Primary was much more close and wonky than it appears in hindsight.

In regards to the US and my analogy, it is a fitting analogy, for the US was set up to fail. Therefore just as it makes no sense in investing in a corporation that was set up to fail, it makes no sense to put trust in the US which is set up to fail, regardless of the lofty promises it makes.

I do not argue for lawlessness, nor for anarchy. I have merely said the US Constitution is obsolete and not even the US government adheres to it at this point in time. Even toilet paper is more useful than the US Constitution. Therefore indeed we cannot trust in the US Constitution, nor in America.

I do believe that the lawlessness and anarchy which is of the world and all her principalities, will be one day abolished. Therefore it be prudent for you and I to seek for a place in the Kingdom eternal, which draws nigh and is even at hand.
 

jaimetheatre

Junior Member
Feb 22, 2014
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#31
Why is it a given that anyone who is Christian will be a republican?
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
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#32
Because a lot of Christians, like republicans, are false.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#33
i really hope Romney isn't nominated.

the mormons are antichrist.
 

G4JC

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2011
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#34
On my watch list:
Ted Cruz - Social-conservative, he and his father aren't afraid to preach the gospel amidst massive smear campaigning by the media. Also wants FULL repeal of ObamaCare, and wants to help support Israel.
Rand Paul - Has some great ideas, but not sure I agree with all of them. Wants FULL repeal of ObamaCare.
Ben Carson - Amazing speaker, but has waffled on stance with gun control and gay marriage already. Also not sure I appreciate CarsonCare as a replacement to ObamaCare. He'd make a great Surgeon General.

That being said, keep up with your candidates and ESPECIALLY their voting record. They can tell you anything you want to hear but when it gets down to the wire they lie to your face and make RINO decisions behind your back. I could make a full page rant about half the people on the OP, but I digress.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
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#35
In regards to Hillary, the Superdelegates did indeed it seems sway that election. Nevertheless due to Hillary's prominence in the party, and because of the urgency of that time a deal had to be made. Perhaps just a fun little 2008 factbite and how the 2008 Democrat Primary was much more close and wonky than it appears in hindsight.
Again, it shows though that she isn't an unbeatable juggernaut. The proverbial goddess can bleed.

In regards to the US and my analogy, it is a fitting analogy, for the US was set up to fail. Therefore just as it makes no sense in investing in a corporation that was set up to fail, it makes no sense to put trust in the US which is set up to fail, regardless of the lofty promises it makes.
For over a century the Constitution served as a decent framework for government in that it took into account human frailties. It was not perfect, of course. It needed augmentation. The fact the country is the way it is now is hardly the Constitution's fault.

I do not argue for lawlessness, nor for anarchy. I have merely said the US Constitution is obsolete and not even the US government adheres to it at this point in time. Even toilet paper is more useful than the US Constitution. Therefore indeed we cannot trust in the US Constitution, nor in America.

I do believe that the lawlessness and anarchy which is of the world and all her principalities, will be one day abolished. Therefore it be prudent for you and I to seek for a place in the Kingdom eternal, which draws nigh and is even at hand.
Again, non-adherence to something that works does not mean the thing itself is the problem or fit to be toilet paper. Athens did not follow Solon's laws. Are they toilet paper? Rome eventually transitioned from a Republic to an Empire. Were Roman Laws all trash? The last I had heard, Mesopotamia no longer follows Hamurabi's Code? I guess we can deface that too. How about Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers? Those are old legal codes too. The Magna Carta? The Justinian Code? Dale's Laws?

All of these are fit to be studied in their context for a multitude of reasons. Among them is that we learn about human nature. In the grand scheme of things the United States Constitution is a recent development, but it is one of the most recent and rich pieces of a generation doing its best to put timeless truths into action.

One of the truths that generation realized is that in order for a system to exist, there must be civic virtue and a moral character. To quote John Adams.

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other.

There are realities that make our current Constitution obsolete, but I would wait for a less brigandish generation to arise to fix those problems...if one of those comes.

In the end though, I actually hope you are right. I sincerely hope that God himself takes away the need for men to go about the strenuous and nigh on impossible task of furnishing systems that respect the Rule of God's Law that will be less apt to follow the Rule of Men.

Until that time though, we cannot abandon that duty. The United States Constitution is an invaluable tool in that endeavor. Not perfect, but good enough.
 

Desdichado

Senior Member
Feb 9, 2014
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#36
i would rearrange it like this...

tier one...
mitt romney
jeb bush
rand paul

tier two...
chris christie
scott walker
rick perry
marco rubio
mike huckabee

tier three...
ted cruz
bobby jindal
rick santorum
ben carson
john kasich

non starters...
carly fiorina
mike pence

scott walker could easily move up into the first tier soon...rick perry would need more work but he could do the same...chris christie would have been in the first tier two or three years ago but his unpopularity with the republican base moves him down to the second tier...although he has the potential to move back up to the first tier...

ted cruz is too damaged in the field of public opinion to be anything other than a kamikaze nominee...and ben carson is popular but has never governed anything in his life...mike pence is a non starter because for most americans he will never be anything more than 'mike who?' and carly fiorina is 'that person who keeps running for stuff in california and losing miserably'

for the record this list has nothing to do with my approval of any of these candidates...i like some of the candidates that i listed in the third tier and i am totally against one of the candidates i listed in the first tier...
This is what I'd like to see more of! Fantastic. I'll respond when I am not thinking about constitutions, hahaha.
 

Nautilus

Senior Member
Jun 29, 2012
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#37
i would rearrange it like this...

tier one...
mitt romney
jeb bush
rand paul

tier two...
chris christie
scott walker
rick perry
marco rubio
mike huckabee

tier three...
ted cruz
bobby jindal
rick santorum
ben carson
john kasich

non starters...
carly fiorina
mike pence

scott walker could easily move up into the first tier soon...rick perry would need more work but he could do the same...chris christie would have been in the first tier two or three years ago but his unpopularity with the republican base moves him down to the second tier...although he has the potential to move back up to the first tier...

ted cruz is too damaged in the field of public opinion to be anything other than a kamikaze nominee...and ben carson is popular but has never governed anything in his life...mike pence is a non starter because for most americans he will never be anything more than 'mike who?' and carly fiorina is 'that person who keeps running for stuff in california and losing miserably'

for the record this list has nothing to do with my approval of any of these candidates...i like some of the candidates that i listed in the third tier and i am totally against one of the candidates i listed in the first tier...
I loving discovering similarities. I am also totally against at least one of the candidates in the first tier.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
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#38
I'm not against Ben Carson, but he has no political experience. It is just not a reality that he could be President or even Vice President. He has a good enough personality and influence though. If he has presidential ambitions he would be wise to run for a lesser office and if he does well in that, from there he could make a formidable campaign later on indeed.
uh, as opposed to the experience our current guy had when he first ran? Hillary couldn't beat him...............
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,744
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#39
I think we need someone dedicated to the Constitution. I happen to believe the Constitution was divinely inspired.
I agree, but given your screen name, your comment is a wee bit humorous.......... :)
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,744
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#40
Because a lot of Christians, like republicans, are false.
No truth in this statement......................Christians are not false..............now, some who profess/pretend to be Christians may be wolves in sheep's clothing, BUT CHRISTIANS ARE NOT FALSE.

Will accept your apology gladly