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T
"If you have two coats, and your brother has none, give him one of yours."
So a Christian nation would have a 50% taxation on the rich, and redistribution of all goods so that all people would be equal in terms of material goods. Of course, in the US with the separation of Church and State, this cannot be. But for a Nation to follow the teachings of Christ, this is one thing it would have to institute.
Other examples?
So a Christian nation would have a 50% taxation on the rich, and redistribution of all goods so that all people would be equal in terms of material goods. Of course, in the US with the separation of Church and State, this cannot be. But for a Nation to follow the teachings of Christ, this is one thing it would have to institute.
Other examples?
T
The US will never become a Christian Nation. I feel fairly confident that enough people will rebel and not let that happen.
But from time to time, I consider what a Christian Nation would look like. And if it really followed what CHRIST taught, and not what a lot of people who claim to follow Jesus claim he taught and never did, I might like it.
But from time to time, I consider what a Christian Nation would look like. And if it really followed what CHRIST taught, and not what a lot of people who claim to follow Jesus claim he taught and never did, I might like it.
V
Let's change it to Godly Values then, as you are right, our values are given by God, not Christians, nor was it given by the Jews, but by God, to the Jews in written form and to everyone upon the heart.
"Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;" Romans 2:15
I do not know enough about Mason's to say if they are or are not. If the Deists do not believe in Christ as the Savior, then, no, and same with the UU. Any who claim Christ as Lord and Savior are, based on what I know of the Bible, Christians.
I will leave you some quotes, from Thomas Jefferson, that he left in his memoirs and letters:
"They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be;"
"The first settlers of this colony were Englishmen, loyal subjects to their king and church; and the grant to Sir Walter Raleigh contained an express proviso, that their laws should not be against the true Christian faith, now professed in the church of England.'"
"Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the words 'Jesus Christ,' so that it should read, 'a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;' the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."
From the above quotes, many of our fore fathers, from the earliest explorers, and on, did have a belief in Christ, including Jefferson. Does that make them perfect, no. However, there were many also, who did not want to prevent others from worshiping their own God, which I think was a direct response to the pilgrims fleeing England, because they wanted to be able to Worship God in the way they chose.
Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies, from the Papers of Thomas Jefferson
Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies, from the Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Volume III.
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The following is a website that contain "quotes" from different people who shaped our History. I do not know how true this site is, as I only found it today. The only one I know that is true for sure is Thomas Jefferson. If you see a quote on there that you feel is not true, please point it out to me, so I can do more research on that one.
http://www.stationedhere.com/Documents/WhatTheyBelieved.pdf
"Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;" Romans 2:15
I do not know enough about Mason's to say if they are or are not. If the Deists do not believe in Christ as the Savior, then, no, and same with the UU. Any who claim Christ as Lord and Savior are, based on what I know of the Bible, Christians.
I will leave you some quotes, from Thomas Jefferson, that he left in his memoirs and letters:
"They are the result of a life of inquiry and reflection, and very different from that anti-Christian system imputed to me by those who know nothing of my opinions. To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be;"
"The first settlers of this colony were Englishmen, loyal subjects to their king and church; and the grant to Sir Walter Raleigh contained an express proviso, that their laws should not be against the true Christian faith, now professed in the church of England.'"
"Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the words 'Jesus Christ,' so that it should read, 'a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;' the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination."
From the above quotes, many of our fore fathers, from the earliest explorers, and on, did have a belief in Christ, including Jefferson. Does that make them perfect, no. However, there were many also, who did not want to prevent others from worshiping their own God, which I think was a direct response to the pilgrims fleeing England, because they wanted to be able to Worship God in the way they chose.
Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies, from the Papers of Thomas Jefferson
Memoir, Correspondence, and Miscellanies, from the Papers of Thomas Jefferson, Volume III.
------------
The following is a website that contain "quotes" from different people who shaped our History. I do not know how true this site is, as I only found it today. The only one I know that is true for sure is Thomas Jefferson. If you see a quote on there that you feel is not true, please point it out to me, so I can do more research on that one.
http://www.stationedhere.com/Documents/WhatTheyBelieved.pdf
J
The fact is we will never completely know what was in their hearts. The Founding Fathers were no different from us today. They were just as devout AND fallible. I believe they tried to set-up a country the way they felt was healthiest. Many of them had a Christian background. Today, 90% of the US claims to be Christian. Sadly, I think most of them carry only cultural Christianity in their hearts, and not Jesus. We are all succeptible to following a RELIGION just because we were raised in it. Some of those Founding Fathers truly loved the Lord and were trying to serve him in politics. Some of the 90% of the US who claim to be Christians also truly love the Lord and want to serve Him. But there is a large group out there, just as there was large group back then who just didn't get it. As humans we love to control. We love to make the boundaries and decide what is good for us. We want to make decisions as if we have all the information. We do it with good hearts to see people helped, saved, rescued, freed, and empowered. I believe the Lord is honored by those intentions, though perhaps not be the actions that followed.
While there was a lot of talk about the Creator and God's plan for a new nation during the forming of the US, there was a lot of flesh involved also. I wonder sometimes if God really called the people here to a revolution, or if they stirred one up in their rebellion. The people came with a desire for freedom from the "oppression" of the monarchy. They came with a new version of the religion they had been raised with. But there were also pieces of other practices mixed in with that pure new expression of religion. Cultic practices were rampant in the colonies as people struggled to find the boundaries within their new belief system. The very leadership that claimed to be so in tune with God, also was steeped in the occult, slavery, sexual and racial abuse, and the love of money. We all know that being so far steeped in this type of sin can be devastating on our judgement. In one sense, the colonies were just the tantruming child of the British monarchy. Haven't we all said fought back at the authority in our lives? Point being: sin will corrupt even the best of intentions. Sin will corrupt your heart to the point that when you accomplish what you set out for, you realize 1) that you crush lives along the way, and 2) that you were deceived by your own heart. What you thought you wanted in the beginning ended up being the opposite of what you accomplished.
While there was a lot of talk about the Creator and God's plan for a new nation during the forming of the US, there was a lot of flesh involved also. I wonder sometimes if God really called the people here to a revolution, or if they stirred one up in their rebellion. The people came with a desire for freedom from the "oppression" of the monarchy. They came with a new version of the religion they had been raised with. But there were also pieces of other practices mixed in with that pure new expression of religion. Cultic practices were rampant in the colonies as people struggled to find the boundaries within their new belief system. The very leadership that claimed to be so in tune with God, also was steeped in the occult, slavery, sexual and racial abuse, and the love of money. We all know that being so far steeped in this type of sin can be devastating on our judgement. In one sense, the colonies were just the tantruming child of the British monarchy. Haven't we all said fought back at the authority in our lives? Point being: sin will corrupt even the best of intentions. Sin will corrupt your heart to the point that when you accomplish what you set out for, you realize 1) that you crush lives along the way, and 2) that you were deceived by your own heart. What you thought you wanted in the beginning ended up being the opposite of what you accomplished.
After everything I know I will say they may not be strictly christian but they certainly arent anti-christian either. They simply allow people to believe what they want. One of the requirements is belief in something greater than yourself, but they wont tell you what it has to be. I think a lot of the hate towards them come from them being exclusive and people just mad they cant join
V
Nautilus, I have even begun to do much research on the Masons. What little I know is mostly from the Masons, one in specific. That while at one time, the Mason's were considered a Christian Lodge, they no longer are, as there are many different people from different religions. The information I have from those who are former Masons (info that I found on a website) is that the Masons have never been a Christian organization. Much of the secrecy for their organization is because they supposedly believe in salvation from someone other then Christ. And the higher up in rank you go, the more secrecy, and the more involvement in the Occult. If this is the case then they certainly are not Christians at all.
T
Most of the founding fathers, including Jefferson, believed that Jesus was a good man who taught great morals. They did not believe him to be divine. As for the Bible, they believed even less of it to be literal than I do, or many of my liberal Christian colleagues. Most of them, if asked, would say that the Christmas story is complete myth, and the resurrection was spiritual rather than literal.
So when Jefferson says, "I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be," you must remember that he is claiming that Jesus wouldn't have wanted follower to believe him to be divine.
Again, if you're comfortable allowing such beliefs under the umbrella of "Christianity," including "Jesus isn't really God, just a really great guy who said some really great things that we should all pay attention to," then yes, the founding fathers wanted the US to be based on "Christian values."
If the above definition is just too broad to be considered "Christian," then no, the values on which this country was founded may be moral, but cannot be considered "Christian."
What say you: are they "Godly"? You tell me.
So when Jefferson says, "I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be," you must remember that he is claiming that Jesus wouldn't have wanted follower to believe him to be divine.
Again, if you're comfortable allowing such beliefs under the umbrella of "Christianity," including "Jesus isn't really God, just a really great guy who said some really great things that we should all pay attention to," then yes, the founding fathers wanted the US to be based on "Christian values."
If the above definition is just too broad to be considered "Christian," then no, the values on which this country was founded may be moral, but cannot be considered "Christian."
What say you: are they "Godly"? You tell me.
G
No. They are not.
Yes - it is certainly possible for a Christian to join the Masonic Lodge; however, in truth - no Christian should have anything to do with any Masonic organization.
Some members are Christians. But, in terms of the organization as a whole - no, they are not.
I would say that - as an organization - they were never considered a Christian Lodge. Have there been lodges in places where most of the members of that [local] lodge were Christians? No doubt. Those lodges may have been considered by someone to be "Christian" lodges. But, the organization as a whole? No. I don't believe so.
YES. That is correct...
.
Yes - it is certainly possible for a Christian to join the Masonic Lodge; however, in truth - no Christian should have anything to do with any Masonic organization.
Some members are Christians. But, in terms of the organization as a whole - no, they are not.
I would say that - as an organization - they were never considered a Christian Lodge. Have there been lodges in places where most of the members of that [local] lodge were Christians? No doubt. Those lodges may have been considered by someone to be "Christian" lodges. But, the organization as a whole? No. I don't believe so.
YES. That is correct...
.
G
I recommend the following book:
Masonry: Beyond the Light by William Schnoebelen
Attached is an image of the original cover (with the blue color in it) and the new cover.
(Apparently, the cover was changed at some point - which I did not know until this hour.)
If you know a mason who also claims to be a Christian -- please direct him to this book.
.
Masonry: Beyond the Light by William Schnoebelen
Attached is an image of the original cover (with the blue color in it) and the new cover.
(Apparently, the cover was changed at some point - which I did not know until this hour.)
If you know a mason who also claims to be a Christian -- please direct him to this book.
.
Attachments
Is America a christian nation?
It was started as one.
But it isn't anymore.
Although there are still vestiges of Christianity lingering; it's not as a people, - God fearing.
Too much trust in governments and power to make other nations yield.
People in America generally rely on the arm of the flesh to save them.
(Whether that be military, money, politics, communal organizations, etc.......)
Anything but God.
The battle cry of the revolutionary war was - 'No King but Jesus'.
The soul's cry of the average American today is - 'No importance but my bank account and my belly'.
It was started as one.
But it isn't anymore.
Although there are still vestiges of Christianity lingering; it's not as a people, - God fearing.
Too much trust in governments and power to make other nations yield.
People in America generally rely on the arm of the flesh to save them.
(Whether that be military, money, politics, communal organizations, etc.......)
Anything but God.
The battle cry of the revolutionary war was - 'No King but Jesus'.
The soul's cry of the average American today is - 'No importance but my bank account and my belly'.
see now i never found the right one to "check",,,not your fault though,,,problem is in the u.s.,,,,,,they are a "PERCENT NATION",,,,if we are a nation set about by laws with the right to emigrate in to the u.s.,,and Hindu's come and become the majority,,then we are a Hindu nation,,,if all the atheist from the earth move here then we are atheist,, if 51% is Muslim,,,,,,,then the u.s.is a Muslim nation,,,,,,,,you see the problem is in it's root most near all the people were christian in the u.s.,,,,but now Christianity is a declining minority,,(no pun intended i am christian and it worries me too),,well one might think "preach convert them all",,,,,,,,,,but Paul said ",,,,,lest their first come a great falling away first,,,,and then the man of sin relieved,,",,so i tell you you are not a christian nation nor will you become one in this present state,,,,,,,,
Nobody can truly force the reborn mind, even when laws are instated.
Surely they can invoke fear of punishment.
But when I no longer fear punishment, I am no longer bound.
This, to some, may be a spirit of anarchy.
But I realise that without fear of law, I no longer obey it for worldly purpose. I obey it from conscience.
To educate the conscience of one's own mind does more for the problems of life, and of the world, than any law every can or could or will.
The only person I have any control over is myself. Only MY attitude is malleable by me.
This is the biggest lie the world tell us is that we can have true power over any other person.
The closed mind will only see laws of 'right and wrong', and arguments and sides.
The open mind will see a whole world with the means to rid it of sides. And it all starts with MYSELF.
If I can change ME, then instantly the world is a better place for having me in it.
And if you can change you, that makes two.
There are no true perfect people. So my argument above about whether America is Christian or not is an example of how I forget what I've learnt sometimes.
I am not perfect.
The very illusion of 'better or worse', people belonging to 'groups and sections', is just that; an illusion.
Not 'Christian', nor 'Muslim', nor 'Atheist' is perfect.
People are NOT perfect.
Our very being, is not a perfect one.
And only when the day comes where ' I will know me, as I am fully known', is when we can have a TRUE opinion on anything outside ourselves, and in fact, even of ourselves.
And when that day comes, I think we'll all realise that EVERYBODY has a lot more in common than most care to fathom.
Surely they can invoke fear of punishment.
But when I no longer fear punishment, I am no longer bound.
This, to some, may be a spirit of anarchy.
But I realise that without fear of law, I no longer obey it for worldly purpose. I obey it from conscience.
To educate the conscience of one's own mind does more for the problems of life, and of the world, than any law every can or could or will.
The only person I have any control over is myself. Only MY attitude is malleable by me.
This is the biggest lie the world tell us is that we can have true power over any other person.
The closed mind will only see laws of 'right and wrong', and arguments and sides.
The open mind will see a whole world with the means to rid it of sides. And it all starts with MYSELF.
If I can change ME, then instantly the world is a better place for having me in it.
And if you can change you, that makes two.
There are no true perfect people. So my argument above about whether America is Christian or not is an example of how I forget what I've learnt sometimes.
I am not perfect.
The very illusion of 'better or worse', people belonging to 'groups and sections', is just that; an illusion.
Not 'Christian', nor 'Muslim', nor 'Atheist' is perfect.
People are NOT perfect.
Our very being, is not a perfect one.
And only when the day comes where ' I will know me, as I am fully known', is when we can have a TRUE opinion on anything outside ourselves, and in fact, even of ourselves.
And when that day comes, I think we'll all realise that EVERYBODY has a lot more in common than most care to fathom.