Israel Declares War

[Yahshua]

I know this because Romans 11 says this. I know this because the Word says God will regather the Jews from other lands and restore them in their own land where they will never be uprooted again.

Ok, let's take Romans 11. We believe that ALL of the Word is true. If all of it is true then all of Romans 11 (and other related passage must be true.


Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

I 100% believe what this chapter says, but again how do you know the people currently in the land are the ones being referred to as the remnant? Verse 10 is often applied to the people currently in the land because it says "Their eyes are darkened", and we currently reason that to mean they have been blinded to the truth of the Messiah. OK, agreed. However, all other verses must also then apply to those same people to verify that they are the remnant, for example:


1) Romans: 11:12
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

^ Remember, becoming blind was Israel's current punishment. If the people in the land are the remnant, then during the time of their blindness (i.e., they haven't accepted Christ); during THIS time of punishment, they are also supposed to be diminished, particularly in wealth (i.e., poor),. All other nations should be richer than they are during their punishment/blindness. However, this State of Israel is currently:

- The 3rd wealthiest country in the Middle East (with the highest average wealth per adult of all Middle Eastern nations)
- The 25th Wealthiest country in the world

This State of Israel does not suffer poverty.


2) Romans 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

^ Israel is cast away during their punishment. When the remnant is received (i.e., regathered) that event coincides with the long-awaited resurrection. This mirrors the passage in Ezekiel 37 of the dry bones that when restored to life become "the whole house of Israel". The Messiah even mentions the regathering in Matthew 24: 31 saying, "And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect (same word used in Romans 11) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The Matthew 24 passage then ties to 1 Thessalonians 4:13 which says, " For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

So Scripture details the specific order of events:

- Trumpet of God signals His 2nd coming, next
- The Messiah himself descends, then
- The Resurrection occurs, and finally
- He gathers His elect (i.e., the election/the remnant) from all parts of the world

This State of Israel is regathered before Christ's return and before the resurrection of the dead.


3) Romans 11:20-23
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

^ Paul makes it clear that Israel was cut off. This punishment was due to Israel's unbelief (they rejected the Messiah). Paul then specifically states the condition for remaining cut off and the condition for being regrafted: belief. The remnant does not get grafted back in; their punishment does not end until they believe in the Messiah. The Word of God is clear about this.

This State of Israel unequivocally denies the Messiah and yet is returned to the land and is the wealthiest in the area.


4) Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

^ The temporary blindness/punishment is until the full number of Gentiles come into the faith. Has the full number come in? Well if Israel was already regathered into the land and has had their wealth restored then that means the full number of Gentiles have been grafted into the faith since 1948 and that the rest of us who weren't even born yet are currently playing pretend. We aren't really grafted in. We missed the boat.

----

So if we take the key points of Romans 11 and weigh the people currently in the land against the Word we find that these are not the remnant..and we stand on the Word as truth. Are the people who are currently in the land prophesied to be there? Yes, but they are not the remnant of Israel.


What do you think about what I've shared?

 

[cv5]

12 Glancing this way and that and seeing no one, he [MOSES] killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand.
MOSES was a murderer
-

Then again......a glorified in Moses was witnessed at the transfiguration. His redemption is a fait accompli.

Did you write vast tracks of scripture and speak to God face-to-face? No. That being the case I would say that you're petty cheap shots don't amount to a hill of beans. If anything they're putting your eternal fate in serious jeopardy.

 

[HeIsHere]

i know for sure that @Moses_Young uses the disagree response on facts he doesn't like, not necessarily on things he is able to say are incorrect.

i suspect the same for @HeIsHere

I disagree because there is some portion that is not fact or the whole post may be a fabrication.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Morality has little, if anything, to do with number of lives killed or saved. Morality is about right and wrong ...

I'm just going to add this to the conversation. I bet few, if any, of the protesters in the US know any of these facts.

1. Women's participation in the Gaza labor force is among the lowest in the world at about 22%, (global average of 50%). Accordingly, the rate of unemployment among women in Gaza is 62%

2.Only 7% of employed women in Gaza are employers, while 81% are wage employees,


3. Women constitute only 12% of doctors, 13% of lawyers, 17% of engineers and 10% of judges. While 18% of agricultural sector employees are women.

4. Land ownership is dominated almost exclusively by men, with women owning only 6% of agricultural assets and less than 1% of the natural resources.

5. A major contributing factor to women's lack of property ownership is an enforced Sharia law stating that women are entitled to only half the inheritance of men. In reality, the situation is much worse, with around 88% of women reporting that they received no portion of inheritances to which they were entitled.

6. The social degradation of women has even reached the level of slander, with various media sources in Gaza publishing harmful content or incitement against women, such as when Hamas-affiliated journalist Isam Shawar claimed that women were responsible for the spread of the swine flu.


7. There is no law in Gaza that prohibits violence against women within the family, sexual violence included.

8. In the absence of necessary laws and law enforcement mechanisms, violence against women continues at alarming rates. 16.7% of surveyed girls aged 12-17 reported undergoing physical or psychological violence at the hands of teachers or classmates. 51% of married women in Gaza have admitted to being victims of some form of violence from their husbands.
Less than 1% of abused married women chose to report it to the appropriate authorities.

9.29% of women in Gaza were married before the age of 18 and 13.4% before the age of 15. These numbers stand out in the Middle East, where 18% of girls are married before the age of 18 and only 3% before the age of 15.

10. According to Islamic law, which is largely enforced by the Hamas authorities, a women's testimony is worth half that of a man's. The laws of adultery are also codified according to gender; an adulterer is punished with six months in prison, while an adulteress is jailed for two years.

11. Similarly, a woman must pay her husband in order to divorce him, but a man can divorce his wife cost free for any reason.

12.A normative dress code that Hamas has attempted to enshrine in law, mandates that women must wear a hijab, the Islamic head covering, while in schools, courthouses, or beaches. Women in Gaza have reported being approached by modesty police, who aim to enforce the dress code by intimidation. The modesty code also includes a prohibition on riding motorcycles, smoking in public, learning to drive without the presence of a man, using a male hairdresser, and even submitting complaints of incest.

13. I would also guess that FGM is practiced in this area.


Now a couple here have talked about Gaza and crying about how it is an open air prison. All of the about are facts about Gaza, yet I have not heard one person talk about this. Why?

 

[Yahshua]

ARE WE WATCHING WHAT WILL BECOME THE OBADIAH WAR?? (feat. John McTernan) | Watch Therefore

Talks of an all out war, a fight to the finish, indicating the Day of the Lord is near and warning that as you have done to Israel it will be done unto you.

The house of Esau refers to Hamas and Hezbollah, they will be thoroughly driven off the land with none remaining. This is what they are trying to do to Israel and it will be done unto them.

I believe Obadiah is just beginning to come to past...but the players are swapped. Those currently called The State of Israel are actually the house of Esau. Note how the chapter begins:

Obadiah 1:1-2
The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord God concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the Lord, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.

2 Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: thou art greatly despised.


- The heathen rises up against the house of Esau
- The house of Esau is the smallest among the heathen
- The house of Esau is greatly despised


1) The heathen rises up against the house of Esau

Recall the story of Jacob and Esau. The two are twins that with careful disguising can look like each other. Both had 12 sons and both were blessed to have the cream of the crop of the earth. However, Esau would only receive the cream of the crop when he removed Jacob's dominion over him. Also, Esau was destined to maintain his possession of the cream of the crop through the sword; destined to continue to war. He'd never have peace (Genesis 27:27-40).

Thus throughout the scriptures, whenever Israel was punished/exiled, Edom took control of their land and possessions. Believing the birthright was always theirs, they sided with enemy nations to plunder Israel and/or seize power. We see this during the time of the gospels. Both King Herod and his family ruled over Judea with the Pharisees leading the temple service. Both Herod and the early Pharisees were Idumeans (i.e., Edomites). Edomites were allowed to remain in the land when Israel was sent into exile, so they retained knowledge of Israel's practices as former servants. Thus, during the ministry of the Messiah, Edom was in a leadership position over the Jews, while also calling themselves Jews.

The word of God remains true. Israel was sent into punishment/exile for rejecting the Messiah and would not return from punishment until they believed in Him. Only when Israel believes in He will He return and regather them, and not a moment beforehand.

So who are the people currently in the land, cleverly disguised as Israel? It's Edom.


The following references from Jewish sources even confirm this truth:

"EDOM IS IN MODERN JEWRY." The Jewish Ency. 1925 Ed., Vol. 5, Pg. 41.

“from then on [Edomites] constituted a part of the Jewish people, Herod being one of their descendants”, The Standard Jewish Encyclopedia, 1966 Doubleday & Company, Inc , Garden City, New York, Pg. 592.

"They [the non-Israelite Edomites] were then incorporated with the Jewish nation…EDOM, IDUMEA," The Jewish Encyclopedia (New York & London: Funk and Wagnalls Company, 1904) Vol. V, p. 41

"…they [the Edomites] were hereafter no other than Jews." Flavius Josephus, The Antiquities of the Jews (Grand Rapids, MI: Dregel Publications, 1960) Book XIII, Chapter IX, Verse 1, p. 279


Again, these are their sources. The State of Israel is actually the House of Esau destined to live by the sword to maintain its substance until the prophecy of Obadiah is fulfilled.


2) The house of Esau is the smallest among the heathen

Currently, the population of the State of Israel is just over 9.6 million. That's approximately the size of the state of New Jersey, and those are not all Jewish people. And as of 2023, the total population of Jewish people across the world is 16 million. That's only 0.2% of 8 billion people.


3) The house of Esau is greatly despised

The Jewish people (Esau/Edom) had become greatly despised by the nations, particularly because of their deceptive financial practices (through usury, just like their Pharisees predecessors practiced). They would migrate to a nation and establish banking practices that would transfer wealth and property from the people to themselves until those nations drove them out. Look up the multiple "Edicts of Expulsion" enacted against them by many kingdoms and governments.

----

So regarding what the man says in the video the players are actually swapped. The book of Obadiah concludes with the house of Jacob becoming a fire, the house of Joseph becoming a flame (think burning bush; think transfiguration) and Edom becoming stubble from that flame (utterly destroyed).

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

They do shade the facts some, but it's more than that. It's ok for Christians to have different convictions.

I have no issue with different convictions. But when people ignore facts, flat out, when people show hatred as ToBeWhole does, when people show antisemitism, no I can't let that pass.

 

[HeIsHere]

I just don't think you understand the intricacies of war.

I actually do, far more than you.

War is intricate, say you, but we can dispense with the geo-political historical nature of the ongoing conflict also say you. Okee dokee!!

 

[HeIsHere]

It's a shame you don't bother to do any serious research on such a serious issue.

The very fact that @Moses_Young understands the bigger picture and details of this war unlike so many who unequivocally support zionism actually means he has done very serious research.

 

[Magenta]

I actually do, far more than you.

That is not a fact, or the whole post may be a fabrication.

^ Criteria you use for allotting X means many of your posts should be getting them also.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Question:
Are they actually teaching the doctrine of replacement theology (or that Israel has been permanently kicked to the curb) in this Church that you attend?

If so I would beat a hasty retreat

I have explained it again and again. It's not always under that name, but it has the same agenda. The church gets all the blessings, the Jews get all the curses. People swear up and down they don't believe it, but when they talk long enough you know that they do. Maybe some don't even know it.

 

[HeIsHere]

i am pointing out that the IDF has to deal with a weaponized, manufactured humanitarian crisis in order to defend themselves,

So you are of the opinion that 10 000+ dead civilians is a manufactured humanitarian crisis created by Hamas?

Do you know anything at all about Gaza?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Ok, let's take Romans 11. We believe that ALL of the Word is true. If all of it is true then all of Romans 11 (and other related passage must be true.


Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

I 100% believe what this chapter says, but again how do you know the people currently in the land are the ones being referred to as the remnant? Verse 10 is often applied to the people currently in the land because it says "Their eyes are darkened", and we currently reason that to mean they have been blinded to the truth of the Messiah. OK, agreed. However, all other verses must also then apply to those same people to verify that they are the remnant, for example:


1) Romans: 11:12
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

^ Remember, becoming blind was Israel's current punishment. If the people in the land are the remnant, then during the time of their blindness (i.e., they haven't accepted Christ); during THIS time of punishment, they are also supposed to be diminished, particularly in wealth (i.e., poor),. All other nations should be richer than they are during their punishment/blindness. However, this State of Israel is currently:

- The 3rd wealthiest country in the Middle East (with the highest average wealth per adult of all Middle Eastern nations)
- The 25th Wealthiest country in the world

This State of Israel does not suffer poverty.


2) Romans 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

^ Israel is cast away during their punishment. When the remnant is received (i.e., regathered) that event coincides with the long-awaited resurrection. This mirrors the passage in Ezekiel 37 of the dry bones that when restored to life become "the whole house of Israel". The Messiah even mentions the regathering in Matthew 24: 31 saying, "And He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect (same word used in Romans 11) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

The Matthew 24 passage then ties to 1 Thessalonians 4:13 which says, " For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

So Scripture details the specific order of events:

- Trumpet of God signals His 2nd coming, next
- The Messiah himself descends, then
- The Resurrection occurs, and finally
- He gathers His elect (i.e., the election/the remnant) from all parts of the world

This State of Israel is regathered before Christ's return and before the resurrection of the dead.


3) Romans 11:20-23
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

^ Paul makes it clear that Israel was cut off. This punishment was due to Israel's unbelief (they rejected the Messiah). Paul then specifically states the condition for remaining cut off and the condition for being regrafted: belief. The remnant does not get grafted back in; their punishment does not end until they believe in the Messiah. The Word of God is clear about this.

This State of Israel unequivocally denies the Messiah and yet is returned to the land and is the wealthiest in the area.


4) Romans 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

^ The temporary blindness/punishment is until the full number of Gentiles come into the faith. Has the full number come in? Well if Israel was already regathered into the land and has had their wealth restored then that means the full number of Gentiles have been grafted into the faith since 1948 and that the rest of us who weren't even born yet are currently playing pretend. We aren't really grafted in. We missed the boat.

----

So if we take the key points of Romans 11 and weigh the people currently in the land against the Word we find that these are not the remnant..and we stand on the Word as truth. Are the people who are currently in the land prophesied to be there? Yes, but they are not the remnant of Israel.


What do you think about what I've shared?

I don't see much I disagree with. Israel, obviously, is still blinded and in unbelief. It depends on how soon Christs return is I would think, some alive today may be part of the remnant. Jews returning is taking place still. I don't see anything major that I disagree with.

 

[Magenta]

So you are of the opinion that 10 000+ dead civilians is a manufactured humanitarian crisis created by Hamas?

Do you know anything at all about Gaza?

Given that you deny the use of civilians by Hamas as human shields... it seems you know nothing at all about how Hamas uses Gaza.

 

[Cameron143]

I actually do, far more than you.

War is intricate, say you, but we can dispense with the geo-political historical nature of the ongoing conflict also say you. Okee dokee!!

Let's see...geopolitics of the situation...both sides hate each other. Been true for a very long time. Will never live at peace with each other. Got it.

 

[Magenta]

Let's see...geopolitics of the situation...both sides hate each other. Been true for a very long time. Will never live at peace with each other. Got it.

How many times has HeIsHere claimed they were done responding to you?

I wonder, have we set a record yet for how many times one says, I'm done, while they keep right at it? .

 

[cv5]

who unequivocally support zionism

"Zionism" you say?
Oh OK.....see post # 3470.

https://christianchat.com/threads/israel-declares-war.212749/post-5186084

There is every reason to believe that God Himself is a Zionist. Certainly to the extent of choosing it and putting His Name there. Zion is pretty much His dwelling place on the earth.

And you despise this "Zionism" concept and its location and Israel too? That is crazy man.

Psa 132:13
For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.

Isa 24:23
Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Isa 59:20
And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.[/USER][/QUOTE]

 

[gb9]

Let's see...geopolitics of the situation...both sides hate each other. Been true for a very long time. Will never live at peace with each other. Got it.

and that is the key.

Israel has the God given right to be there.

the arab world calls them the " zionest occupiers"

hard to make peace for that situation.

 

[Nehemiah6]

There is every reason to believe that God Himself is a Zionist.

In a manner of speaking. Unfortunately the Zionist Movement chose to be secular. But you are correct in that Zion on earth has been chosen by God

 

[Nehemiah6]

the arab world calls them the " zionest occupiers"

And they forget that even the Koran confirms the fact that God chose Israel:

47. O Children of Israel! Remember My favor which I bestowed upon you, and that I favored you over all nations. (Koran, Sura 1:47)

Of course these word are coming from "Allah" but they do confirm what the Bible says.

 

[posthuman]

So you are of the opinion that 10 000+ dead civilians is a manufactured humanitarian crisis created by Hamas?

Do you know anything at all about Gaza?

the fact that Hamas's strategy includes using its civilian population as meat shields knowing that inevitable retaliation by the IDF for Hamas terrorism and acts of war will result in an humanitarian crisis, makes the resulting humanitarian crisis one which has been manufactured by the aggressor.