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T
I am not sure if my belief is exactly "universalism." I have been there, but I have since read some texts that have helped me understand Scripture in a way that allows for God's eternal mercy without losing God's justice.
What I do insist is that there is no "eternal torture." I do not believe that there is eternal suffering, pain, and agony for those who reject Jesus. Even Hitler would not be so cruel. A God which would allow such to take place would not be worthy of praise. Just use the brains God gave you. I've been in serious pain a few times in my life. There were some times that I've wanted to shoot myself to put myself out of the misery of that pain. And you're telling me that there's some divine being out there who allows for such misery to go on eternally, with no end? That is sadistic WAY beyond Hitler. Such a being would be the worst, most evil, vile being ever. CERTAINLY not worthy of worship.
So, in other words .... if such a place exists ... if there really is a hell where people suffer pain and agony for eternity ... and if there is a "god" who made that hell ... that god doesn't warrant my belief, let alone my adoration.
I used to believe that, since there is no hell, everyone must just go to heaven. As I said at the beginning of this post, that view has morphed over the years. I've read some wonderful discussions / treatises on the passages in Scripture where these visions of hell are described, and what might have been meant by them. I think the idea that seems to be most congruent both with Scripture and with the God whom Jesus revealed to us is this:
No human is completely good, nor completely evil. Heaven is given not based on how "good" or "evil" we are, but given as a free gift, pure grace. The problem is, in heaven, there is no evil, only good. So here's the problem: if we humans -- who have both good and evil -- were to go to heaven like that, we would "sully" heaven, and it would no longer be heavenly.
Before we are allowed to step foot into that heavenly kingdom, the evil must be purged. Scripture has some wonderful images -- gold in a refiner's fire, the winnowing fork with the wheat and the chaff -- all these images, as I read them, apply not to different people (one person is saved and another person is damned) but to each person (that part of a person which is good or evil). The purging process can be painful indeed. That pain I referred to above? I'm told the worst pain anyone could ever endure is 2nd degree burns. I believe it. 3rd degree burns the nerves, so it doesn't hurt any more. Having experienced both 2nd degree burns and childbirth, I'm here to tell you childbirth was a breeze compared! So your Scriptural imagery of being burned, lakes of fire, torment and suffering, yes, that is going to have to happen. And the more evil you have, the more pain there will be, as the evil is burnt out of you. But that's necessary before you can get into heaven, like wiping your feet on the welcome mat before stepping into a home, you can't bring that stuff into heaven ... it has to be left outside the door. So the free gift of grace is still intact: each of us receives the grace ... but the price to pay is also still there, and God's justice is still there. It's the only way I've been able to make sense of it, to uphold Scripture and also maintain a Merciful God.
So, if that's what you think of as "universalism," then yes, I am.
What I do insist is that there is no "eternal torture." I do not believe that there is eternal suffering, pain, and agony for those who reject Jesus. Even Hitler would not be so cruel. A God which would allow such to take place would not be worthy of praise. Just use the brains God gave you. I've been in serious pain a few times in my life. There were some times that I've wanted to shoot myself to put myself out of the misery of that pain. And you're telling me that there's some divine being out there who allows for such misery to go on eternally, with no end? That is sadistic WAY beyond Hitler. Such a being would be the worst, most evil, vile being ever. CERTAINLY not worthy of worship.
So, in other words .... if such a place exists ... if there really is a hell where people suffer pain and agony for eternity ... and if there is a "god" who made that hell ... that god doesn't warrant my belief, let alone my adoration.
I used to believe that, since there is no hell, everyone must just go to heaven. As I said at the beginning of this post, that view has morphed over the years. I've read some wonderful discussions / treatises on the passages in Scripture where these visions of hell are described, and what might have been meant by them. I think the idea that seems to be most congruent both with Scripture and with the God whom Jesus revealed to us is this:
No human is completely good, nor completely evil. Heaven is given not based on how "good" or "evil" we are, but given as a free gift, pure grace. The problem is, in heaven, there is no evil, only good. So here's the problem: if we humans -- who have both good and evil -- were to go to heaven like that, we would "sully" heaven, and it would no longer be heavenly.
Before we are allowed to step foot into that heavenly kingdom, the evil must be purged. Scripture has some wonderful images -- gold in a refiner's fire, the winnowing fork with the wheat and the chaff -- all these images, as I read them, apply not to different people (one person is saved and another person is damned) but to each person (that part of a person which is good or evil). The purging process can be painful indeed. That pain I referred to above? I'm told the worst pain anyone could ever endure is 2nd degree burns. I believe it. 3rd degree burns the nerves, so it doesn't hurt any more. Having experienced both 2nd degree burns and childbirth, I'm here to tell you childbirth was a breeze compared! So your Scriptural imagery of being burned, lakes of fire, torment and suffering, yes, that is going to have to happen. And the more evil you have, the more pain there will be, as the evil is burnt out of you. But that's necessary before you can get into heaven, like wiping your feet on the welcome mat before stepping into a home, you can't bring that stuff into heaven ... it has to be left outside the door. So the free gift of grace is still intact: each of us receives the grace ... but the price to pay is also still there, and God's justice is still there. It's the only way I've been able to make sense of it, to uphold Scripture and also maintain a Merciful God.
So, if that's what you think of as "universalism," then yes, I am.
T
I don't know how medical staff can do it, seeing death every day and still having a cheery face for each new patient, taking all the abuse (many patients are awful, because they're sick, and we're at our worst when we're in pain).... I would rather work food service than medical, and that's saying something!
Then again, I know people say the same thing about my day-job of accounting, but I LOVE numbers .... I guess it's good God made a variety of people, huh?
Then again, I know people say the same thing about my day-job of accounting, but I LOVE numbers .... I guess it's good God made a variety of people, huh?
C
So, you are saying that God does not deserve your praise? God is merciful, but you have to ask for forgiveness.
I left my Bible and notebooks at my friends yesterday, so, when I get them back I will show you verses that go against what you just said. I know the verses that I am going to tell you, but I don't the verses' names.
This verse is from Matthew; " Not everyone who calls Lord! Lord! Will enter heaven." Jesus said that. So what happens to the people that don't enter heaven? They must go some where else right?
I left my Bible and notebooks at my friends yesterday, so, when I get them back I will show you verses that go against what you just said. I know the verses that I am going to tell you, but I don't the verses' names.
This verse is from Matthew; " Not everyone who calls Lord! Lord! Will enter heaven." Jesus said that. So what happens to the people that don't enter heaven? They must go some where else right?
T
Once again, you failed to read and/or understand my post. Are you being deliberately rude here, or are you so dense you honestly can't tell the difference?
I said nothing in my post that contradicts this, and I agree 100%.
Don't bother. If you're going to cop the same attitude as your first two sentences, your haughtiness is wasted on me. I don't answer to you, I answer only to the Lord, so don't waste your breath. I'm sure I have forgotten more Scripture than you know, little man.
If you had bothered to read my post rather than just skimming it over, assuming you knew what I was saying, and then being condescending and snotty, you would have seen my answer to that very question. I will not re-type it for you. If you didn't read it the first time, you won't the second. Just live in your holier-than-thou bubble. I'm sure you're happy there.
I said nothing in my post that contradicts this, and I agree 100%.
Don't bother. If you're going to cop the same attitude as your first two sentences, your haughtiness is wasted on me. I don't answer to you, I answer only to the Lord, so don't waste your breath. I'm sure I have forgotten more Scripture than you know, little man.
If you had bothered to read my post rather than just skimming it over, assuming you knew what I was saying, and then being condescending and snotty, you would have seen my answer to that very question. I will not re-type it for you. If you didn't read it the first time, you won't the second. Just live in your holier-than-thou bubble. I'm sure you're happy there.
C
What you said was there is going to be Lakes of fire to burn off evil in us, that there is no eternal torture. Well Jesus said not everyone will enter heaven and you pretty much said they do. And if everyone will enter heaven then there is no point for the devil to trick us if God is going to let everyone in.
And I am not being snotty, you are upset that I am calling you out on something very stupid to say on your part. God don't deserve your praise because he allows people to go to hell. Yes God does allow people to go to hell and.he is still worthy of all praise rather you like it or not.
You are making it fix your wants. You don't want there to be eternal pain so you are trying to say there is none when there is. And yes you are going to have to answer to God and hopefully you ask for forgiveness for saying a God that allows eternal pain is evil and is not worthy of praise. I assure you my God is worthy.
And I am not being snotty, you are upset that I am calling you out on something very stupid to say on your part. God don't deserve your praise because he allows people to go to hell. Yes God does allow people to go to hell and.he is still worthy of all praise rather you like it or not.
You are making it fix your wants. You don't want there to be eternal pain so you are trying to say there is none when there is. And yes you are going to have to answer to God and hopefully you ask for forgiveness for saying a God that allows eternal pain is evil and is not worthy of praise. I assure you my God is worthy.
T
I said no such thing. You're just making stuff up now.
This is the ONE thing I will admit to saying, because I did say it and I do believe it. Torture is not eternal, because that would contradict a loving God.
I did not "pretty much" say it, and I did not say that at all. I said those who receive the free gift of grace will go to heaven.
Look, if you didn't understand what I said, then ask for clarification. Don't make stuff up and then claim it's what I said. I would be happy to explain what I said in another way, if you asked nicely.
I do not believe what you are accusing me of believing. I never claimed to believe it. You have made up some "very stupid thing" and then claimed I have said it, but I have not. Therefore you are lying about me. THAT is what I am upset about, and with good reason.
Furthermore, when I called you on it, rather than say, "Oh, I'm sorry, I guess I did misunderstand you," you're making it worse by continuing in your lie. You know how easy it would be for you to admit that you misunderstood me? I would not tease you for it, or call you stupid. I would take partial responsibility for not explaining it well enough, if you didn't understand. But rather than fess up, you're digging yourself in deeper by insisting that I said something that I have already told you I did not say.
You have two choices here. You can admit you did not understand my explanation, apologize for dragging it out like this, and ask for forgiveness, or you can continue living in sin. I cannot make that choice for you. If you choose the first, I will absolutely forgive you, and even go back and try to explain what I was trying to say before, trying different words so that you might understand. But if you're going to be stubborn, why should I bother trying to make you understand?
This is the ONE thing I will admit to saying, because I did say it and I do believe it. Torture is not eternal, because that would contradict a loving God.
I did not "pretty much" say it, and I did not say that at all. I said those who receive the free gift of grace will go to heaven.
Look, if you didn't understand what I said, then ask for clarification. Don't make stuff up and then claim it's what I said. I would be happy to explain what I said in another way, if you asked nicely.
I do not believe what you are accusing me of believing. I never claimed to believe it. You have made up some "very stupid thing" and then claimed I have said it, but I have not. Therefore you are lying about me. THAT is what I am upset about, and with good reason.
Furthermore, when I called you on it, rather than say, "Oh, I'm sorry, I guess I did misunderstand you," you're making it worse by continuing in your lie. You know how easy it would be for you to admit that you misunderstood me? I would not tease you for it, or call you stupid. I would take partial responsibility for not explaining it well enough, if you didn't understand. But rather than fess up, you're digging yourself in deeper by insisting that I said something that I have already told you I did not say.
You have two choices here. You can admit you did not understand my explanation, apologize for dragging it out like this, and ask for forgiveness, or you can continue living in sin. I cannot make that choice for you. If you choose the first, I will absolutely forgive you, and even go back and try to explain what I was trying to say before, trying different words so that you might understand. But if you're going to be stubborn, why should I bother trying to make you understand?
T
Thank you. It takes a big heart to fess up like that, and I'm so glad you did. I forgive you, and apologize for my own part in the misunderstanding.
Okay, so here's another try at explaining what I believe. There are two things at play. One is that we know we are saved by grace through faith, and not works, so haven is not granted to those who are "good" and hell to those who are "bad" (which is a common misconception, and there are plenty of Bible verses that can easily be misunderstood and have been misinterpreted that way). As Scripture says, those who believe in Jesus are granted eternal life. I think that those who never had a chance in this life will be given a chance in the next at the Great Judgement. Grace is not something you can "take," it's something that is given freely. God offers this gift freely, to anyone who would take it.
For those who do not take it, there is nothing. No heaven, no hell ... they simply cease to exist. There is plenty of Scripture -- mostly Old Testament -- to support this. This is what happens to all of us when we die, until the Judgement Day. We die, and we cease living. For those who receive the gift of eternal life, it is freely given, and we are resurrected with Christ into a New Earth. For those who do not receive it, no gift of life is given. They are not resurrected. They remain dead.
But that is not all. Yes, the gift of eternal life is given freely, to all who ask. But the "catch" is that no evil can exist in heaven. So before we can enter, we must be purified. I really like science fiction (books and movies), and an image that has made sense for me is like a "shield," as you pass through, that which is good, loving, pure, and godly remains, but that which is evil, hateful, damaged and sinful must stay on the other side. This process -- the winnowing, as it is referred to in Scripture -- is something each person must go through before we can get to heaven. It's not like God is punishing us. It's just the way heaven works. Heaven can't be heaven if there's any evil in it, so all the evil has to go away.
Now comes the "works righteousness" part ... Paul would not like this, but I think in the end he would agree. The gift of grace is given freely, no matter how much sin you have. But let's face it -- some of us have a lot of sin. Someone like Hitler, who is full of evil, hatred ... IF he is resurrected at all (and I cannot say if he would be ... that's not up to me, it's up to God ... I'm just saying IF he or someone like him were to walk through those proverbial pearly gates) ... a lot of the old self would be left behind. On the other hand, someone like Mother Theresa, (and again, I really don't know what is in her heart -- I'm just guessing by her fruits) -- is mostly pure, and has very little to lose before stepping into that Grand Palace.
Here's another analogy. Let's say you're cutting up some fruit to serve and eat. The fruit has bruises and over-ripe spots. An apple that just has one little dent in it, well, you'd only have to cut that little bit away, and the rest of it is good to go. A banana that's mostly brown and almost rotten, you'd have to throw away a lot of it to find a little bit of it that's eatable. Okay, so it's not a perfect analogy (despite the fact that I think all God's children are a little fruity from time to time), but I hope you understand where I'm going with this.
So: God's mercy is intact: Salvation is a free gift. God's justice is intact: sins have consequences. If you read every Scripture passage that describes the afterlife thinking of it this way, it totally makes sense. For me, thinking of God sending people to eternal torture is a contradiction to the rest of the Bible, and I don't believe the Bible can contradict itself. If you think there's something contradictory, then it means you're misinterpreting something.
If you still don't understand, let me know, although I'm not sure if I could explain it differently. I also do not mean to say that I am "100% sure I am right and everyone else is wrong." This is a theory that I started to think about when a pastor friend of mine -- gosh, must've been almost 20 years ago now -- suggested, and the more I read Scripture and pray, the more it kind of solidifies from a nebulous idea into a working concept. I'm sure it will continue to morph as I continue in my walk with Jesus. Although ultimately, it's not a big deal. I know that I am saved, and I also know that it is not my job to save others, so what happens in the afterlife is completely out of my control. Why stress about something I can't control?
The important thing I want to stress is that this idea comes from Scripture. You don't have to agree with the way I am interpreting Scripture, but please know that I do take the Bible seriously, and I would not hold a belief if it did not jive with what I believe the Bible says.
Thanks again for giving this another try. May God continue to bless and keep you.
Okay, so here's another try at explaining what I believe. There are two things at play. One is that we know we are saved by grace through faith, and not works, so haven is not granted to those who are "good" and hell to those who are "bad" (which is a common misconception, and there are plenty of Bible verses that can easily be misunderstood and have been misinterpreted that way). As Scripture says, those who believe in Jesus are granted eternal life. I think that those who never had a chance in this life will be given a chance in the next at the Great Judgement. Grace is not something you can "take," it's something that is given freely. God offers this gift freely, to anyone who would take it.
For those who do not take it, there is nothing. No heaven, no hell ... they simply cease to exist. There is plenty of Scripture -- mostly Old Testament -- to support this. This is what happens to all of us when we die, until the Judgement Day. We die, and we cease living. For those who receive the gift of eternal life, it is freely given, and we are resurrected with Christ into a New Earth. For those who do not receive it, no gift of life is given. They are not resurrected. They remain dead.
But that is not all. Yes, the gift of eternal life is given freely, to all who ask. But the "catch" is that no evil can exist in heaven. So before we can enter, we must be purified. I really like science fiction (books and movies), and an image that has made sense for me is like a "shield," as you pass through, that which is good, loving, pure, and godly remains, but that which is evil, hateful, damaged and sinful must stay on the other side. This process -- the winnowing, as it is referred to in Scripture -- is something each person must go through before we can get to heaven. It's not like God is punishing us. It's just the way heaven works. Heaven can't be heaven if there's any evil in it, so all the evil has to go away.
Now comes the "works righteousness" part ... Paul would not like this, but I think in the end he would agree. The gift of grace is given freely, no matter how much sin you have. But let's face it -- some of us have a lot of sin. Someone like Hitler, who is full of evil, hatred ... IF he is resurrected at all (and I cannot say if he would be ... that's not up to me, it's up to God ... I'm just saying IF he or someone like him were to walk through those proverbial pearly gates) ... a lot of the old self would be left behind. On the other hand, someone like Mother Theresa, (and again, I really don't know what is in her heart -- I'm just guessing by her fruits) -- is mostly pure, and has very little to lose before stepping into that Grand Palace.
Here's another analogy. Let's say you're cutting up some fruit to serve and eat. The fruit has bruises and over-ripe spots. An apple that just has one little dent in it, well, you'd only have to cut that little bit away, and the rest of it is good to go. A banana that's mostly brown and almost rotten, you'd have to throw away a lot of it to find a little bit of it that's eatable. Okay, so it's not a perfect analogy (despite the fact that I think all God's children are a little fruity from time to time), but I hope you understand where I'm going with this.
So: God's mercy is intact: Salvation is a free gift. God's justice is intact: sins have consequences. If you read every Scripture passage that describes the afterlife thinking of it this way, it totally makes sense. For me, thinking of God sending people to eternal torture is a contradiction to the rest of the Bible, and I don't believe the Bible can contradict itself. If you think there's something contradictory, then it means you're misinterpreting something.
If you still don't understand, let me know, although I'm not sure if I could explain it differently. I also do not mean to say that I am "100% sure I am right and everyone else is wrong." This is a theory that I started to think about when a pastor friend of mine -- gosh, must've been almost 20 years ago now -- suggested, and the more I read Scripture and pray, the more it kind of solidifies from a nebulous idea into a working concept. I'm sure it will continue to morph as I continue in my walk with Jesus. Although ultimately, it's not a big deal. I know that I am saved, and I also know that it is not my job to save others, so what happens in the afterlife is completely out of my control. Why stress about something I can't control?
The important thing I want to stress is that this idea comes from Scripture. You don't have to agree with the way I am interpreting Scripture, but please know that I do take the Bible seriously, and I would not hold a belief if it did not jive with what I believe the Bible says.
Thanks again for giving this another try. May God continue to bless and keep you.
S
*Clears throat*
Revelation 14:9-11 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
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On the subject of bad grammar, it's very hard for me to restrain myself from correcting posters when you practically need a UN interpreter to read what they said. Then again, I'm a teacher, I can't help it anymore. I've gone to the mall and had to stop myself from seeing some barely-dressed teens and saying "You are in violation of dress code, young lady!" I'm totally serious. Just be thankful it's summertime and I'm off.
Revelation 14:9-11 "And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
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On the subject of bad grammar, it's very hard for me to restrain myself from correcting posters when you practically need a UN interpreter to read what they said. Then again, I'm a teacher, I can't help it anymore. I've gone to the mall and had to stop myself from seeing some barely-dressed teens and saying "You are in violation of dress code, young lady!" I'm totally serious. Just be thankful it's summertime and I'm off.
C
For those who do not take it, there is nothing. No heaven, no hell ... they simply cease to exist.
I can't tell you the exact verse but the verse says, some will rise to everlasting life, others will rise to everlasting shame and contempt.
Yes, heaven is not given to those who are good and hell to does who are bad. I heard an evangelist say heaven is not give to the good but to the forgiven.
Here's another verse, it says something like this; our bodies are like seeds, when you plant a seed into the ground it becomes a tree, when our bodies are planted into the ground (after we die) they grow into our spiritual bodies. Again I never remember the verse's name, only what they. I'll give you their names tomorrow when I get my notebooks back. Anyway, another verse says " the people who do not die before the lords return will also undergo the transformation."
I can't tell you the exact verse but the verse says, some will rise to everlasting life, others will rise to everlasting shame and contempt.
Yes, heaven is not given to those who are good and hell to does who are bad. I heard an evangelist say heaven is not give to the good but to the forgiven.
Here's another verse, it says something like this; our bodies are like seeds, when you plant a seed into the ground it becomes a tree, when our bodies are planted into the ground (after we die) they grow into our spiritual bodies. Again I never remember the verse's name, only what they. I'll give you their names tomorrow when I get my notebooks back. Anyway, another verse says " the people who do not die before the lords return will also undergo the transformation."
T
LOL
It is important to remember that the Revelation of John is all poetic speech. This was a vision that John received from the Lord. In visions, almost everything God shows you is symbolic. The seals are symbolic, the horses are symbolic, etc. Sometimes God reveals exactly what the symbols are, but not always.
Now, it has been 2 decades since I've studied the book, and that is TOOOO long! I need to study that book again. So for now, I have nothing to help you reconcile that verse with the rest of Scripture, but I'm sure, with study and prayer, it can be done. Like I said, the Bible can never contradict itself -- if it seems to, it means you're misinterpreting something.
LOL! I'm glad I'm not the only one.
I hereby give you carte blanche to let me know of any spelling or grammar mistakes I make in posts. I do have spellcheck, so the spelling errors should be minimal (thank goodness .... English is a HORRIBLE language for spelling!!!), but I know I'm as susceptible to grammar errors as the next grammar nazi
And unlike some, I do want to know when I make errors, so please feel free to don your teacher hat when you read my posts.
(The last sentence above is sort of a fragment, although beginning a sentence with "and" has become common usage these days. Heck, it's completely proper in both Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew.)
I'm glad to see the humor return to this thread.
It is important to remember that the Revelation of John is all poetic speech. This was a vision that John received from the Lord. In visions, almost everything God shows you is symbolic. The seals are symbolic, the horses are symbolic, etc. Sometimes God reveals exactly what the symbols are, but not always.
Now, it has been 2 decades since I've studied the book, and that is TOOOO long! I need to study that book again. So for now, I have nothing to help you reconcile that verse with the rest of Scripture, but I'm sure, with study and prayer, it can be done. Like I said, the Bible can never contradict itself -- if it seems to, it means you're misinterpreting something.
LOL! I'm glad I'm not the only one.
I hereby give you carte blanche to let me know of any spelling or grammar mistakes I make in posts. I do have spellcheck, so the spelling errors should be minimal (thank goodness .... English is a HORRIBLE language for spelling!!!), but I know I'm as susceptible to grammar errors as the next grammar nazi
And unlike some, I do want to know when I make errors, so please feel free to don your teacher hat when you read my posts.(The last sentence above is sort of a fragment, although beginning a sentence with "and" has become common usage these days. Heck, it's completely proper in both Koine Greek and Biblical Hebrew.)
I'm glad to see the humor return to this thread.
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E
Purgatory
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Purgatory is the condition of purification or temporary punishment[1] by which those who die in a state of grace are believed to be made ready for Heaven. This theological notion has ancient roots and is well-attested in early Christian literature, but the poetic conception of purgatory as a geographically situated place is largely the creation of medieval Christian piety and imagination.[1]
The notion of purgatory is associated particularly with the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Eastern sui juris churches or rites it is a doctrine, though often without using the name "Purgatory"); Anglicans of the Anglo-Catholic tradition generally also hold to the belief. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, believed in an intermediate state between death and the final judgment and in the possibility of "continuing to grow in holiness there."[2][3] The Eastern Orthodox Churches believe in the possibility of a change of situation for the souls of the dead through the prayers of the living and the offering of the Divine Liturgy,[4] and many Orthodox, especially among ascetics, hope and pray for a general apocatastasis.[5] A similar belief in at least the possibility of a final salvation for all is held by Mormonism.[6] Judaism also believes in the possibility of after-death purification[7] and may even use the word "purgatory" to present its understanding of the meaning of Gehenna.[8] However, the concept of soul "purification" may be explicitly denied in these other faith traditions.
??
I doubt it.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Purgatory is the condition of purification or temporary punishment[1] by which those who die in a state of grace are believed to be made ready for Heaven. This theological notion has ancient roots and is well-attested in early Christian literature, but the poetic conception of purgatory as a geographically situated place is largely the creation of medieval Christian piety and imagination.[1]
The notion of purgatory is associated particularly with the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church (in the Eastern sui juris churches or rites it is a doctrine, though often without using the name "Purgatory"); Anglicans of the Anglo-Catholic tradition generally also hold to the belief. John Wesley, the founder of Methodism, believed in an intermediate state between death and the final judgment and in the possibility of "continuing to grow in holiness there."[2][3] The Eastern Orthodox Churches believe in the possibility of a change of situation for the souls of the dead through the prayers of the living and the offering of the Divine Liturgy,[4] and many Orthodox, especially among ascetics, hope and pray for a general apocatastasis.[5] A similar belief in at least the possibility of a final salvation for all is held by Mormonism.[6] Judaism also believes in the possibility of after-death purification[7] and may even use the word "purgatory" to present its understanding of the meaning of Gehenna.[8] However, the concept of soul "purification" may be explicitly denied in these other faith traditions.
??
I doubt it.
T
Yes, I am aware that my belief is basically a belief in purgatory. I try not to use that word, because a lot of evangelical Christians don't really know what the word means. They know it as "a Catholic theory," and if they've been taught anything about it, it would be that it's false. But, as the article you quoted states, it has significant support in Scripture, both Old and New Testament, and in tradition outside of the Catholic Church.
The connotation of "purgatory" implies that it is a place. Like, an antechamber to heaven. I'm not convinced this image is accurate -- in my understanding, which comes from Scripture and prayer rather than from reading more recent articles or treatises on the topic -- this is less a "place" and more a "process." Though there are certainly useful images that go with the "location" idea. I think the fact that we're talking about the afterlife, something that, even if God were to reveal everything there is to know, you would have no words to describe it, is why it's hard to come to an accurate understanding and to verbalize it.
Here's what we know:
The elect are going to heaven.
There will be no evil in heaven.
Taking those two things, I see no alternative to some sort of "purgatory." How else can you explain how we, imperfect, sinful creatures will be in heaven, a sinless place? Either one of the two above statements is false (you can tell me which one you think is false if you like), or there is some sort of "purgatory," though the details of that I agree are unknown.
The connotation of "purgatory" implies that it is a place. Like, an antechamber to heaven. I'm not convinced this image is accurate -- in my understanding, which comes from Scripture and prayer rather than from reading more recent articles or treatises on the topic -- this is less a "place" and more a "process." Though there are certainly useful images that go with the "location" idea. I think the fact that we're talking about the afterlife, something that, even if God were to reveal everything there is to know, you would have no words to describe it, is why it's hard to come to an accurate understanding and to verbalize it.
Here's what we know:
The elect are going to heaven.
There will be no evil in heaven.
Taking those two things, I see no alternative to some sort of "purgatory." How else can you explain how we, imperfect, sinful creatures will be in heaven, a sinless place? Either one of the two above statements is false (you can tell me which one you think is false if you like), or there is some sort of "purgatory," though the details of that I agree are unknown.
E
When time is up, it's up.
There's no purgatory or cleanup time aside from this life that I can see.
It's given to each man to die once, and then the Judgment.
By Grace we are saved, through faith in Jesus. Nothing else.
Stay separate from the world and sin as best you can til He comes or until you die.
Jesus comes and in a moment everything is changed: by the looks of it, He brings an end to this world by fire (the material world we know - time, etc); everyone is resurrected for the Judgment (those alive at the time are instantly changed into new bodies without experiencing death); the saved inherit the new earth and new heavens; the unsaved go into the lake of fire.
It's this "change" into immortal bodies where the evil is destroyed (for the eternal saints). We'll have bodies like Jesus, we won't die or hurt or have sin or anything cursed.
He does all that.
Mark 13
The Return of Christ
24“But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, 25AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26“Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory. 27“And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
Psalm 102
25“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
26“Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed.
Isaiah 34:4
And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or as one withers from the fig tree.
Hebrews 1
10And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED.
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.
1 Corinthians 15
35But someone will say, “How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?” 36You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies; 37and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own. 39All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish. 40There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another. 41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
The Mystery of Resurrection
50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. 55“O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; 57but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your toil is not in vain in the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:1
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
Revelation 21
The New Heaven and Earth
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
5And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end
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T
Edward:
Thank you for posting your ideas and TONS of Scripture. I really do appreciate hearing what other believers think. It's all very fascinating.
Ultimately, like I said, I'm not too worried about it. I will find out when the time comes, and there's nothing I can do between now and then to change anything.
Thank you for posting your ideas and TONS of Scripture. I really do appreciate hearing what other believers think. It's all very fascinating.
Ultimately, like I said, I'm not too worried about it. I will find out when the time comes, and there's nothing I can do between now and then to change anything.
T
The title of this thread: "Real Christian."
Any way we can get back on track?
There are different kinds of Christians. Evangelical Christians. Fundamentalist Christians. Catholic Christians. Liberal Christians. We may disagree about specific points of theology, but Christ would have us be one in Him. I am probably the biggest "offender" on this board of debating (if debate is an offense), but I do believe we can disagree on some points and still generally agree that we're all one in Christ.
A few weeks ago there was a thread about Fundamentalism. I very much enjoyed talking about what people consider "fundamentalist" or not, where the boundaries are drawn, etc. It seemed to me (speak up if I'm wrong) that the general consensus there was "If you don't believe A, B, C, and D, then you're not a fundamentalist. You might be a Christian, but you're not a fundamentalist."
While some complain about the labels that divide and separate, I don't think Jesus minds that we have different views, as long as ultimately, we love and trust him. The number one commandment: Love God with EVERYTHING you have. In fact, I think the fact that there are different "flavors" of Christianity out there is a good thing. If all Christian Churches were the same, there are a lot of people who would be turned off by some of the things that church did that were not essential to being Christian, but were essential to that particular church.
I don't know if this makes any sense at all. Feel free to ask for clarification.
Any way we can get back on track?
There are different kinds of Christians. Evangelical Christians. Fundamentalist Christians. Catholic Christians. Liberal Christians. We may disagree about specific points of theology, but Christ would have us be one in Him. I am probably the biggest "offender" on this board of debating (if debate is an offense), but I do believe we can disagree on some points and still generally agree that we're all one in Christ.
A few weeks ago there was a thread about Fundamentalism. I very much enjoyed talking about what people consider "fundamentalist" or not, where the boundaries are drawn, etc. It seemed to me (speak up if I'm wrong) that the general consensus there was "If you don't believe A, B, C, and D, then you're not a fundamentalist. You might be a Christian, but you're not a fundamentalist."
While some complain about the labels that divide and separate, I don't think Jesus minds that we have different views, as long as ultimately, we love and trust him. The number one commandment: Love God with EVERYTHING you have. In fact, I think the fact that there are different "flavors" of Christianity out there is a good thing. If all Christian Churches were the same, there are a lot of people who would be turned off by some of the things that church did that were not essential to being Christian, but were essential to that particular church.
I don't know if this makes any sense at all. Feel free to ask for clarification.