Saddleback Church Ousted from Southern Baptist Convention Over Female Pastor
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True. But Paul and Timothy are not to be taken as examples of elders. Rather Peter, who calls himself a fellow elder, even though an apostle. In any event the Bible is crystal clear. Both elders and deacons are to be married men, and mature Christians. But the ministry of the Word is reserved for the elders (or pastor/elder/bishops) as shepherds and overseers of the flock.
1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. ( 1 Peter 5:1-4)
1 The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. ( 1 Peter 5:1-4)
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Agreed
No. Not true. The elders are overseers, they are responsible, this doesn't mean that they have a monopoly on the ministry of the word, it only means that concerning the flock they are shepherding they have oversight over those meetings.
No elder has any say over what ministry I participate in or listen to. You can seek their advice and counsel, But "feed the flock" can include guest speakers, it can include personal testimonies from every member of the flock. The only chapter in the Bible that discusses the church meetings is 1Corinthians 14 and it says that when you come together "each one has". It says everything needs to be done in order, that is where the elders come in,
However, the Bible never says "the church of the elders". it is the church of Christ, Church of God, and Church of the Saints.
No. Not true. The elders are overseers, they are responsible, this doesn't mean that they have a monopoly on the ministry of the word, it only means that concerning the flock they are shepherding they have oversight over those meetings.
No elder has any say over what ministry I participate in or listen to. You can seek their advice and counsel, But "feed the flock" can include guest speakers, it can include personal testimonies from every member of the flock. The only chapter in the Bible that discusses the church meetings is 1Corinthians 14 and it says that when you come together "each one has". It says everything needs to be done in order, that is where the elders come in,
However, the Bible never says "the church of the elders". it is the church of Christ, Church of God, and Church of the Saints.
Now you are simply going off on a tangent, since there was not even a hint about "the church of the elders" in my post.
Something else to note. Recently there have been some claiming that "the Church is Christ". That is false since Christ is the Head of the Church and the saints are the Church, the Body of Christ.
Something else to note. Recently there have been some claiming that "the Church is Christ". That is false since Christ is the Head of the Church and the saints are the Church, the Body of Christ.
Jesus has called all believers to be witnesses. Every believer has been given a talent from the Lord that they are to trade with and not bury in the backyard.
Christians who have become spectators are those who have become victims of dumb idols. When Paul talked about spiritual warfare and standing against the evil one that wasn't only for elders and pastors.
Christians who have become spectators are those who have become victims of dumb idols. When Paul talked about spiritual warfare and standing against the evil one that wasn't only for elders and pastors.
When you say that only the elders can minister the word that is where you are headed. This is what the Catholic church has done. This is what all these major denominations have done. It isn't the church of God, or the church of the saints, it is the church of the board of directors with the Pastor being the voice of them.
What we have seen happen recently in the US had to first happen in the church. They gave too much power to the pastors and board of directors. Just as those in the US have given too much power to the government. They ignored the word of God, and in the US they ignore the constitution.
What we have seen happen recently in the US had to first happen in the church. They gave too much power to the pastors and board of directors. Just as those in the US have given too much power to the government. They ignored the word of God, and in the US they ignore the constitution.
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Many if not most Christian congregations today are abnormal and the cause is not women pastors, that is simply a symptom.
Suppose that the church meeting was truly like Paul described in 1Corinthians 14 where "whenever you come together each one has" and "each one" includes sisters as well as brothers. Everyone in the meeting can share a Psalm, or a revelation, or an experience preaching the gospel, etc. Everyone can pray. Meanwhile the elders and Pastor are simply overseeing, they are like the coach and the referee. The Pastor's wife is every bit as influential in this role as the Pastor.
Then I don't think anyone would listen to someone whining about needing a woman pastor, that is sexist. We need both, a husband and a wife.
For such a church meeting to exist you have to have members who are seeking the Lord everyday and who are actively witnessing of the Lord every week.
Instead what crept in was laziness. Let's hire a professional to do all that for us. That is where the church went down the path to becoming abnormal and unhealthy and ultimately the apostasy.
Suppose that the church meeting was truly like Paul described in 1Corinthians 14 where "whenever you come together each one has" and "each one" includes sisters as well as brothers. Everyone in the meeting can share a Psalm, or a revelation, or an experience preaching the gospel, etc. Everyone can pray. Meanwhile the elders and Pastor are simply overseeing, they are like the coach and the referee. The Pastor's wife is every bit as influential in this role as the Pastor.
Then I don't think anyone would listen to someone whining about needing a woman pastor, that is sexist. We need both, a husband and a wife.
For such a church meeting to exist you have to have members who are seeking the Lord everyday and who are actively witnessing of the Lord every week.
Instead what crept in was laziness. Let's hire a professional to do all that for us. That is where the church went down the path to becoming abnormal and unhealthy and ultimately the apostasy.
You would have to convince me that Timothy, who definitely was a pastor, was in fact married. And worse, you would have to convince me that the Apostle John (who was also an elder and pastor) was married! There is no reason to believe so in either case.
Also.....what of widowers? Should the wife die, is he immediately disqualified?
Furthermore, the requirement regarding marriage is as follows:
Tit 1:6
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
1Ti 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:12
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Polygamy was the issue at hand. Not the fact of being married itself.
2Jo 1:1
This letter is from John, the elder (presbyteros ).
I am writing to the chosen lady and to her children, whom I love in the truth—as does everyone else who knows the truth—
3Jo 1:1
This letter is from John, the elder (presbyteros ).
I am writing to Gaius, my dear friend, whom I love in the truth.
Also.....what of widowers? Should the wife die, is he immediately disqualified?
Furthermore, the requirement regarding marriage is as follows:
Tit 1:6
If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
1Ti 3:2
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:12
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
Polygamy was the issue at hand. Not the fact of being married itself.
2Jo 1:1
This letter is from John, the elder (presbyteros ).
I am writing to the chosen lady and to her children, whom I love in the truth—as does everyone else who knows the truth—
3Jo 1:1
This letter is from John, the elder (presbyteros ).
I am writing to Gaius, my dear friend, whom I love in the truth.
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I think the letters to the seven churches give us a multifaceted view of the church.
1. Historical view is valid and the last 4 churches will be here on earth at the time of the Lord's return.
2. Church age view is valid and we are now in the church age of apostasy
3. The stages of development view is valid and I believe all the believers in the church in Philadelphia had to go through the experience of several other churches.
4. The view of this being a warning is valid. It starts with leaving your first love and it ends up in Laodicea and losing your lampstand if you don't heed the warnings. If you do heed the warnings, take up your cross and follow the Lord then you can end up in Philadelphia.
1. Historical view is valid and the last 4 churches will be here on earth at the time of the Lord's return.
2. Church age view is valid and we are now in the church age of apostasy
3. The stages of development view is valid and I believe all the believers in the church in Philadelphia had to go through the experience of several other churches.
4. The view of this being a warning is valid. It starts with leaving your first love and it ends up in Laodicea and losing your lampstand if you don't heed the warnings. If you do heed the warnings, take up your cross and follow the Lord then you can end up in Philadelphia.
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Here you go...... J. Vernon McGee had pastored at least FOUR different Churches before he became married.
"McGee's first church as a pastor was located on a red-clay hill in Midway, Georgia. He served Presbyterian churches in Decatur, Georgia; Nashville, Tennessee; and Cleburne, Texas, where he met and later married Ruth Inez Jordan. McGee and his wife moved to Pasadena, California, where he accepted the pastorate at the Lincoln Avenue Presbyterian Church in 1941. The McGees' first child, a daughter named Ruth Margaret McGee, was born prematurely and died when she was a few hours old. The McGees later had another daughter, Lynda Karah McGee, in 1946."
Spurgeon was unmarried when he first became a pastor as well. TONS of other examples.
Looks like you have an uphill battle with this marriage requirement bro......
"McGee's first church as a pastor was located on a red-clay hill in Midway, Georgia. He served Presbyterian churches in Decatur, Georgia; Nashville, Tennessee; and Cleburne, Texas, where he met and later married Ruth Inez Jordan. McGee and his wife moved to Pasadena, California, where he accepted the pastorate at the Lincoln Avenue Presbyterian Church in 1941. The McGees' first child, a daughter named Ruth Margaret McGee, was born prematurely and died when she was a few hours old. The McGees later had another daughter, Lynda Karah McGee, in 1946."
Spurgeon was unmarried when he first became a pastor as well. TONS of other examples.
Looks like you have an uphill battle with this marriage requirement bro......
Paul was not exactly without personality when writing to his friends and apprentices. Paul was extremely sarcastic and used irony often.
The Romans considered the Middle Eastern practice of polygamy to be rather barbaric and uncivilized behavior. While they, themselves only had one wife they often had "consorts" or girlfriends. The position of consort in Roman society was a recognized position and had a social standing.
Paul, when speaking personally to Timothy or Titus referred to these consorts as wives because indeed they were engaged in physical intimacy with the Roman/Greek men and received financial support from their men. Now this term "wives" would be rather insulting to the Greek/Roman men...Paul didn't perceive any wrongdoing by their customs as he, himself believed in polygamy...but someone who was wealthy enough to support two households and trying to please two wives while earning a living sufficient to support them would be too busy to do anything substantial or time consuming for the Early Church. Paul also didn't want any undue influence of financially or politically powerful men to shape the future of the church.
This is the reason for the prohibition of plural wives.
The Romans considered the Middle Eastern practice of polygamy to be rather barbaric and uncivilized behavior. While they, themselves only had one wife they often had "consorts" or girlfriends. The position of consort in Roman society was a recognized position and had a social standing.
Paul, when speaking personally to Timothy or Titus referred to these consorts as wives because indeed they were engaged in physical intimacy with the Roman/Greek men and received financial support from their men. Now this term "wives" would be rather insulting to the Greek/Roman men...Paul didn't perceive any wrongdoing by their customs as he, himself believed in polygamy...but someone who was wealthy enough to support two households and trying to please two wives while earning a living sufficient to support them would be too busy to do anything substantial or time consuming for the Early Church. Paul also didn't want any undue influence of financially or politically powerful men to shape the future of the church.
This is the reason for the prohibition of plural wives.
So married pastors or unmarried pastors? What say ye?
BTW....Robert Murray M'Cheyne is another worthy pastor from the past who never married. J. Gresham Machen is another one.
I could easily compile a list of dozens upon dozens.
I for one refuse to render an accusation against these esteemed unmarried pastors. Anybody else willing?
1Ti 5:19
Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
BTW....Robert Murray M'Cheyne is another worthy pastor from the past who never married. J. Gresham Machen is another one.
I could easily compile a list of dozens upon dozens.
I for one refuse to render an accusation against these esteemed unmarried pastors. Anybody else willing?
1Ti 5:19
Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
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I really don't care one way or another.
Wives and families usually cause PK syndrome. And there needs to be some measure of caution when dealing with a PK...especially when they are young. A very blessed few turn out OK. Many become resentful of the church and its congregants.
I don't have a problem with single men pastors....I just don't see many of them usually.
Wives and families usually cause PK syndrome. And there needs to be some measure of caution when dealing with a PK...especially when they are young. A very blessed few turn out OK. Many become resentful of the church and its congregants.
I don't have a problem with single men pastors....I just don't see many of them usually.
No....men only, marriage optional/not necessary. Thats the net of it IMO. Female pastors/elders no bueno...very clearly. Deacons.....definitely OK for females.
The thing is.....a critic would have to stand up with 2 or 3 witnesses and condemn J. Vernon McGee (and Timothy and John I suppose). Not only that, you would likewise have to condemn those WHO ORDAINED THEM as well....
Not gonna happen IMO.
The thing is.....a critic would have to stand up with 2 or 3 witnesses and condemn J. Vernon McGee (and Timothy and John I suppose). Not only that, you would likewise have to condemn those WHO ORDAINED THEM as well....
Not gonna happen IMO.