The Horrific Muslim Infiltration Of Britain - Luton 2012

[SonInMe]

Secular liberalism and islam hold ideals against christianity principles.

Whodathunk?

There are only two masters. You serve one or the other, spiritually.

I would expect no less from secular liberals and muslims.

Just a fyi, if you think islam is a legitimate way to God, ya got serious salvation issues.

 

[ZzZ_Faithful_ZzZ]

Do you run into people often here that think it is?

 

[leonardronaldo]

Let's analyze some teachings. Who's first, Allah or Muhammad?
Let's go with Allah.

Sura 3 aya 151
[3:151]
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong- doers.

hmm

 

[SonInMe]

Let's analyze some teachings. Who's first, Allah or Muhammad?
Let's go with Allah.

Sura 3 aya 151
[3:151]
We shall cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong- doers.

hmm

allah was a family god of muhammad's and when you search the quran and the bible, they describe two very different gods....and I have no idea what import that passage from the quaran, I presume, has.

 

[Drett]

Hey you guys seem so knowledgeable in Islam. Who am I to rain on your parade.

 

[leonardronaldo]

Hey you guys seem so knowledgeable in Islam. Who am I to rain on your parade.

So you will just accept a teaching even if it ordains its believers to terrorize others?
nice

 

[leonardronaldo]

allah was a family god of muhammad's and when you search the quran and the bible, they describe two very different gods....and I have no idea what import that passage from the quaran, I presume, has.

If you see the verse carefully, you will see there are at least 2 people speaking there.
First: WE (supposedly Allah using a 'royal' singular pronoun)
Second: Allah (they ascribe unti Allah partners).

If a man say this to another man, what would you call him: "I shall ban you from entering here because you mock leonardronaldo" (which is me).

Silly cavemen trying to be clever. lol

 

[Drett]

So you will just accept a teaching even if it ordains its believers to terrorize others?
nice

Hi L

It is all about context. I am sure you have told atheists this when they cherry pick the bible. I have told you before, you have chosen to ignore it.

Read the verse again. The verse speaks of God putting fear in the heart of those who attack them. This was revealed around the time when huge armies were attacking the Muslims.

The US has a large consignment of nuclear weapons that can blow up this Earth many times over. What is the purpose of having these weapons if they cannot be used ? They are banking on the fear/terror these nuclear weapons instill to deter people from attacking them.

Hey you believe what you want to believe in the end.

 

[leonardronaldo]

Hi L

It is all about context. I am sure you have told atheists this when they cherry pick the bible. I have told you before, you have chosen to ignore it.

Read the verse again. The verse speaks of God putting fear in the heart of those who attack them. This was revealed around the time when huge armies were attacking the Muslims.

The US has a large consignment of nuclear weapons that can blow up this Earth many times over. What is the purpose of having these weapons if they cannot be used ? They are banking on the fear/terror these nuclear weapons instill to deter people from attacking them.

Hey you believe what you want to believe in the end.

Fear is different with terror.
And why you change the one who disbelieve into the one who attack? Do you have a new quran now?

I will not put my interpretation here, let's see again Ibn Abbas:
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - التفاسير

did you see also the second problem I mentioned in my post (#27)?

you accused me of cherry picking and ignoring what you said, while in fact it is you who ignore the most respected scholar in sunni world, Cousin of muhammad himself, Ibn Abbas and decided to go with your own interpretation. I gave you list of verses of Jihad, from many chapters, the most required task of those who believe in the quran; yet you didn't give any response to that.

It's true that you can believe what you want, but don't claim you believe in true Islam. I hate Islam not only because the Bible ask me to reprove false teachings, but because Allah and Muhammad hated me first.

 

[Drett]

Fear is different with terror.
And why you change the one who disbelieve into the one who attack? Do you have a new quran now?

I will not put my interpretation here, let's see again Ibn Abbas:
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - التفاسير

did you see also the second problem I mentioned in my post (#27)?

you accused me of cherry picking and ignoring what you said, while in fact it is you who ignore the most respected scholar in sunni world, Cousin of muhammad himself, Ibn Abbas and decided to go with your own interpretation. I gave you list of verses of Jihad, from many chapters, the most required task of those who believe in the quran; yet you didn't give any response to that.

It's true that you can believe what you want, but don't claim you believe in true Islam. I hate Islam not only because the Bible ask me to reprove false teachings, but because Allah and Muhammad hated me first.

OF course I believe the Tafsir of Abbas. I explained the last one you posted then you promptly changed the subject.

Lets put down what was stated in the Tafsir. Lets not hid it behind a link.

Allah then mentioned the defeat of the unbelievers on the Day of Uhud, saying: (We shall cast terror) fear of you such that they run from you (into the hearts of those who disbelieve) the unbelievers of Mecca (because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed) either in a Scripture nor taught by a messenger. (Their habitation) their dwelling-place (is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers) the dwelling-place of the unbelievers is the Fire.

What happened in the battle of Uhud.

An army of 3000 went to Madinah to fight against the 700 strong Muslim force. If I saw 3000 people marching towards my city, I would be hoping someone would be looking out for me because against a force that large, I don't have much chance.

 

[David_1]

A lot of drongos ranting about Liberals and Liberalism in this thread. You are only showing your ignorance.

If you hate Liberalism (freedom) so much, there are many backwards countries you can move to. Saudi Arabia will have you.

To think of all the people who fought for our liberalism, and you lot want the Dark Ages again? Nuts!

 

[Drett]

A lot of drongos ranting about Liberals and Liberalism in this thread. You are only showing your ignorance.

If you hate Liberalism (freedom) so much, there are many backwards countries you can move to. Saudi Arabia will have you.

To think of all the people who fought for our liberalism, and you lot want the Dark Ages again? Nuts!

Actually what I am complaining about is what the US is doing outside its country. I have moved to a Muslim country.

 

[leonardronaldo]

OF course I believe the Tafsir of Abbas. I explained the last one you posted then you promptly changed the subject.

Lets put down what was stated in the Tafsir. Lets not hid it behind a link.

Allah then mentioned the defeat of the unbelievers on the Day of Uhud, saying: (We shall cast terror) fear of you such that they run from you (into the hearts of those who disbelieve) the unbelievers of Mecca (because they ascribe unto Allah partners, for which no warrant hath been revealed) either in a Scripture nor taught by a messenger. (Their habitation) their dwelling-place (is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong-doers) the dwelling-place of the unbelievers is the Fire.

What happened in the battle of Uhud.

An army of 3000 went to Madinah to fight against the 700 strong Muslim force. If I saw 3000 people marching towards my city, I would be hoping someone would be looking out for me because against a force that large, I don't have much chance.

what are you talking about changing the subject?
sigh
so if muslims are attacked (actually Mecca and Madina' area was pagan tribes' majority in the first place), the terror of allah is justified? Very peace of islam. Nice.

Jesus and even his disciples and early true Christians were persecuted, jailed, given into lions' mouth and captured by the Pharisees and Romans society.
Imagine if one of the disciple wrote that Jesus commanded this:
I shall cast terror into the hearts of those Pharisees and Romans because they reject my message, for which no warrant hath been revealed. Their habitation is the Fire, and hapless the abode of the wrong- doers.

What would you think of that message? Religion of peace, eh? yea right.

What about another problem on the verse. Why there are 2 speakers in the verse.
1st: WE
2nd: Allah.

Both can't be the same speaker.

 

[leonardronaldo]

[7:3]
(Saying): Follow that which is sent down unto you from your Lord, and follow no protecting friends beside Him. Little do ye recollect!

[7:4]
How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them.

[7:5]
No plea had they, when Our terror came unto them, save that they said: Lo! We were wrong-doers.

very peaceful. no more explanation needed

 

[Drett]

[7:3]
(Saying): Follow that which is sent down unto you from your Lord, and follow no protecting friends beside Him. Little do ye recollect!

[7:4]
How many a township have We destroyed! As a raid by night, or while they slept at noon, Our terror came unto them.

[7:5]
No plea had they, when Our terror came unto them, save that they said: Lo! We were wrong-doers.

very peaceful. no more explanation needed

I guess you're not too much worried about context. Obviously did not read the Tafsir of Abbas. These were early verses revealed in Mecca.

Do you think the people of Sodom and Gomorrah felt terror when God expect judgement on them. This is what these verses speak of. The cities that were destroyed by God. Are you calling God a terrorist ?

Perhaps you should open the books of the old testament, blow the dust off and have a read. Might need to take the plank out first.

 

[leonardronaldo]

I guess you're not too much worried about context. Obviously did not read the Tafsir of Abbas. These were early verses revealed in Mecca.

Do you think the people of Sodom and Gomorrah felt terror when God expect judgement on them. This is what these verses speak of. The cities that were destroyed by God. Are you calling God a terrorist ?

Perhaps you should open the books of the old testament, blow the dust off and have a read. Might need to take the plank out first.

LOL you don't understand the nasikh mansoukh., even. who is your teacher? Bring him here.
Nasikh mansoukh is abrogation only if the meccan revelated verses is in contradiction with the madinan revelated verses.
for example sura 96: Iqra. the first revelation to muhammad. Is that abrogated as well? of course not.

If you want madina' verse., let's look at it:
[8:12]
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

So on your early posts you say the atheists misrepresent the OT and now you do?
no surprise.
The commandment of YHWH on that time was specific for that time, His people. And the order was specific only to punish certain people of that time.
And Jesus fulfilled the promise, hope and the Law.
In contrary, your quran is a revelation in only span of 20 years or so, so it's not comparable at all with the Bible. God's book can't be compared with a bedouin arab's alter ego and lust. Even aisha in a hadith realized that allah was so quick in fulfilling muhammad's wishes.

Look at your beloved Madinah verses above then. your false god allah said he will instil terror into the hearts of unbelievers.
Now who are unbelievers? allahualam lol

 

[Drett]

LOL you don't understand the nasikh mansoukh., even. who is your teacher? Bring him here.
Nasikh mansoukh is abrogation only if the meccan revelated verses is in contradiction with the madinan revelated verses.
for example sura 96: Iqra. the first revelation to muhammad. Is that abrogated as well? of course not.

If you want madina' verse., let's look at it:
[8:12]
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

So on your early posts you say the atheists misrepresent the OT and now you do?
no surprise.
The commandment of YHWH on that time was specific for that time, His people. And the order was specific only to punish certain people of that time.
And Jesus fulfilled the promise, hope and the Law.
In contrary, your quran is a revelation in only span of 20 years or so, so it's not comparable at all with the Bible. God's book can't be compared with a bedouin arab's alter ego and lust. Even aisha in a hadith realized that allah was so quick in fulfilling muhammad's wishes.

Look at your beloved Madinah verses above then. your false god allah said he will instil terror into the hearts of unbelievers.
Now who are unbelievers? allahualam lol

OK I guess you have moved on from Surah Al A'Raf. No comments on your incorrect interpretation of it. Just keep changing the subject. lol

Lord inspired the angels. Angels L. Do you remember the OT ? God asks angels in the OT to do some pretty tough stuff as well. Killing first born etc.

Actually that verse has a scientific miracle in it. A sign for those that have an open mind L. In forensics, what special property does a finger tip have in identification ?

Stopping jumping around and tell me why my interpretation of the verse is wrong.

 

[leonardronaldo]

OK I guess you have moved on from Surah Al A'Raf. No comments on your incorrect interpretation of it. Just keep changing the subject. lol

Lord inspired the angels. Angels L. Do you remember the OT ? God asks angels in the OT to do some pretty tough stuff as well. Killing first born etc.

Actually that verse has a scientific miracle in it. A sign for those that have an open mind L. In forensics, what special property does a finger tip have in identification ?

Stopping jumping around and tell me why my interpretation of the verse is wrong.

It is you who asked me to give later verse, since you seems don't understand the nasikh mansoukh of quran.
Claiming the sura 7 I posted was in the earlier verses and therefore abrogated.
I answered in my post, that they were not abrogated at all, that's why I even challenge you to invite your teacher here.
since you don't even understand the nasikh mansoukh of the quran.
The part of Meccan verses which are abrogated are those which in contradiction with the later Madina's verses. Since the part of sura 7 that I posted is in agreement with the Madina's verses, so those are not abrogated.

Again, you went to the Bible and making it the OT become the NT. First, Bible actually can't be compared to quran since Bible is written throughout more than 2000 years of length span between the first and the last revelation. While the quran, is only between about 20 years of muhammad's life at 40 to 60 something. It's not a wild guess to accuse muammad to have actually written the quran through his alter ego and lusts. Even in a sahih hadith, Aisha has realized that allah was very quick in fulfilling muhammad's desire.
Secondly, the OT, as I said also in my post, was FULFILLED by JESUS. The OT was clear in stating Order and Commandment. For a certain place and only to punish certain people. How many times I should say that in my post?

And look at your quran's Later Madinah's part, which is like the New Testament of the Quran. It is the more violent verses which make up most of Madinah's part. Therefore there are strong reason to abrogate the less violent Meccan verses with the more violent Madinah's verses.
So it's the opposite of the Bible actually. Bringing up the Bible into comparison with quran is just giving Islam more damage and destruction.

Since you forced me to see the tafsir, here it is:
(When your Lord inspired the angels) it is also said that this means: when your Lord commanded the angels, ((saying I am with you) I will help you. (So make those who believe stand firm) in war; it is also said that this means: give those who believe the good news of victory. (I will throw) cast (fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve) the fear of Muhammad (pbuh) and his Companions. (Then smite the necks) their heads (and smite of them each finger) each shaped finger.

Islam is a war guide against those who disbelieve, and the war is literally.
If you can show me where Jesus or His disciples said, commanded, or wrote about any violent thing; I'll be happy to know that.
Or another way to do it, let's compare Jesus with muhammad, since both are claimed to be perfect example to be followed.
Or if you think it's unfair in a sense, let's compare Jesus with allah.

 

[Drett]

It is you who asked me to give later verse, since you seems don't understand the nasikh mansoukh of quran.
Claiming the sura 7 I posted was in the earlier verses and therefore abrogated.
I answered in my post, that they were not abrogated at all, that's why I even challenge you to invite your teacher here.
since you don't even understand the nasikh mansoukh of the quran.
The part of Meccan verses which are abrogated are those which in contradiction with the later Madina's verses. Since the part of sura 7 that I posted is in agreement with the Madina's verses, so those are not abrogated.

Again, you went to the Bible and making it the OT become the NT. First, Bible actually can't be compared to quran since Bible is written throughout more than 2000 years of length span between the first and the last revelation. While the quran, is only between about 20 years of muhammad's life at 40 to 60 something. It's not a wild guess to accuse muammad to have actually written the quran through his alter ego and lusts. Even in a sahih hadith, Aisha has realized that allah was very quick in fulfilling muhammad's desire.
Secondly, the OT, as I said also in my post, was FULFILLED by JESUS. The OT was clear in stating Order and Commandment. For a certain place and only to punish certain people. How many times I should say that in my post?

And look at your quran's Later Madinah's part, which is like the New Testament of the Quran. It is the more violent verses which make up most of Madinah's part. Therefore there are strong reason to abrogate the less violent Meccan verses with the more violent Madinah's verses.
So it's the opposite of the Bible actually. Bringing up the Bible into comparison with quran is just giving Islam more damage and destruction.

Since you forced me to see the tafsir, here it is:
(When your Lord inspired the angels) it is also said that this means: when your Lord commanded the angels, ((saying I am with you) I will help you. (So make those who believe stand firm) in war; it is also said that this means: give those who believe the good news of victory. (I will throw) cast (fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve) the fear of Muhammad (pbuh) and his Companions. (Then smite the necks) their heads (and smite of them each finger) each shaped finger.

Islam is a war guide against those who disbelieve, and the war is literally.
If you can show me where Jesus or His disciples said, commanded, or wrote about any violent thing; I'll be happy to know that.
Or another way to do it, let's compare Jesus with muhammad, since both are claimed to be perfect example to be followed.
Or if you think it's unfair in a sense, let's compare Jesus with allah.

What are you talking abrogated ? Surah 7 simply speaks of the cities of the past that were destroyed. Refer to your OT for those cities.

There were some verses that were abrogated, such as verses concerning alcohol. Alcohol was referred to as disliked, then removed. We saw in the US the consequences of trying to ban alcohol abruptly.

The Musllims in Mecca and Madinah faced different challenges. In Mecca they were in a position similar to Jesus. They were only responsible for themselves. In Madinah they were responsible for a community and had people attacking them, they needed to protect themselves. The verses told them our to deal with those situations and gave them limits.

As for the OT being no longer valid. Jesus did not feel that way. Just before he ascended.

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: [SUP]2 [/SUP]“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Jesus thought it was important they learn the law from the Pharisees after he was gone. You apparently have thrown it all out the window because it does not sit well with you.

Forced you to see the Tafsir ? You are making comments on verses in a public forum and you do not bother to see if you have the correct interpretation ?

I see you have your selective bolding happening again. I guess I use it too. That verse referred to the battle of Badr well they were againsyt a force that was superior in number and equipment. God sent them angels to help them. These verses refer to defence.

The Quran is a guide to life. Some of that deals with defending yourself. It sets limits on how you should fight centuries before the Geneva convention.

Example

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors.

Usually the verse above

And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter...

and the verse below are left off Christian and Atheist web sites.

But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).

This is from a Madinah surah

 

[leonardronaldo]

What are you talking abrogated ? Surah 7 simply speaks of the cities of the past that were destroyed. Refer to your OT for those cities.

There were some verses that were abrogated, such as verses concerning alcohol. Alcohol was referred to as disliked, then removed. We saw in the US the consequences of trying to ban alcohol abruptly.

The Musllims in Mecca and Madinah faced different challenges. In Mecca they were in a position similar to Jesus. They were only responsible for themselves. In Madinah they were responsible for a community and had people attacking them, they needed to protect themselves. The verses told them our to deal with those situations and gave them limits.

As for the OT being no longer valid. Jesus did not feel that way. Just before he ascended.

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: [SUP]2 [/SUP]“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. [SUP]3 [/SUP]So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Jesus thought it was important they learn the law from the Pharisees after he was gone. You apparently have thrown it all out the window because it does not sit well with you.

Forced you to see the Tafsir ? You are making comments on verses in a public forum and you do not bother to see if you have the correct interpretation ?

I see you have your selective bolding happening again. I guess I use it too. That verse referred to the battle of Badr well they were againsyt a force that was superior in number and equipment. God sent them angels to help them. These verses refer to defence.

The Quran is a guide to life. Some of that deals with defending yourself. It sets limits on how you should fight centuries before the Geneva convention.

Example

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors.

Usually the verse above

And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter...

and the verse below are left off Christian and Atheist web sites.

But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful... If they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression" (2:190-193).

This is from a Madinah surah

So you don't understand about nasikh mansoukh? Ok.
Bring your evidence that says sura 7 refers to OT. I can't see it in the tafsir, both Jalalayn nor Ibn Abbas. Are you making a new tafsir?
I am not saying the OT is not valid. Why you put words into mine? I said it was fulfilled, Jesus showed the Jews and later Gentiles, how to interpret the law. Which is even setting the bar higher than the Pharisees thought how to interpret the law.
I copied the tafsir in my post. Are you blind or what?

What defence. It was muhammad who attack those people's rituals, looted their belongings, etc etc. Muhammad started them all. The Christians live there alongside the pagans. Why do you think there are no war between them?
Because it was muhammad who started to create troops to fulfill his own ego and lust by saying it was allah who said that to him through jibreel.

Yes it is Madinah's surah.
But sura 8 is after sura 2. Look at your fellow muslim's website:
Revelation Order of the Quran

and the second last chapter revealed is sura 9. That's why it is very important actually to understand the doctrine of nasikh mansoukh. for the beginning of understanding of the term, read this aya: 2:106;
For whatever sign We nullify or cause it to be forgotten, We bring better than it, or similar to it. Hast thou not known that God is Powerful over everything?

(additional critic to the aya: I can understand if it's better, but what's the point for similar? lol and cause to be forgotten? Ooh ok.)

I'll post the tafsir, as you wish, so you won't accuse me anymore.
Then Allah mentions what was abrogated of the Qur'an and that which was not abrogated, as a direct reference to the claim of the Quraysh who said to the Prophet: O Muhammad! Why do you command us to do something and then forbid it, saying: (Such of Our revelations as We abrogate) We do not erase a verse that was acted upon before and which is now not acted upon (or cause to be forgotten) or leave unabrogated so that it is acted upon, (We bring one better) We send Gabriel with that which more profitable and easier to act upon (or the like) in reward, benefit and action. (Knowest thou not) O Muhammad (that Allah is Able to do all things?) of the abrogated and unabrogated.

greatly, allah saved the sake of muhammad from shame before the quraysh. nice job allah.