This Corona virus pandemic could be the weapon that takes our liberties away , all in the name of saving lives?

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Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
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So a virus that attacks the lining of the lungs, because a person's immune system can not produce the antibodies need to fight the virus, is not the cause of that person's death. Where do you folks dig up this nonsense? Sure the person might have died anyway, but suffice it to say that covid19 not only hastened his death, it also made the death much more painful to him.

We know much more about the virus today than we did at the beginning of March. We know who is most susceptible to complications, and how to mitigate the damage the complications cause. Now let's get back to work, while we put that knowledge to work protecting those who are the most susceptible to complications.

Pray that the next mutation of the virus doesn't attack today's young and healthy bodies.
 

acts5_29

Active member
Apr 17, 2020
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Re-posting about Samaritan's Purse here, even though it's a topic unto itself and not the same one. (???)


Samaritan's Purse getting kicked out of New York, not allowed to help Covid patients

This Christian organization set up shop in Central Park in New York City quite some time ago, to help people afflicted with Covid. As you know, their hospital system was inundated, having trouble accommodating everybody. So health care workers from out-of-state came in to help, through the Samaritan's Purse organization. New York City is kicking them out because of their Christian values. The volunteers are required to profess Christian values in order to be a part, including such things as marriage between one man and one woman. However, Samaritan's Purse never turned away patients based on religion, race, or sexual orientation. They helped everybody in need. Hope Rising just got done raising $1.6 million to help Samaritan's Purse.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...fter-councilman-called-on-group-to-leave-city

Also, Governor Cuomo is saying the volunteers are now required to pay state income tax. They were working in the state for more than 14 days, so they are required. They don't get an exception because they were assisting New York with Covid.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/...ork-with-pandemic-must-pay-state-income-taxes

They are in the middle of tearing down their field tents now. Existing patients are being allowed to stay until their cases complete. I guess New York cannot be helped.
Here we go, straight from samaritanspurg.org. I don't know why this board removed my thread. Kind of hard to call it "fake news" when the organization itself says it is closing.

https://www.samaritanspurse.org/art...medical-team-as-central-park-hospital-closes/
 
Aug 10, 2019
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Yes, this is a COVID-19 death. This person got the virus and was the cause/sped up the process of other organs failing/or worsening their pre-existing conditions. Are you saying if a person has multiple illnesses, cause of death is unknown?



Depends on where the shot landed. There should be an autopsy done to figure this out.
No, what I'm saying is that I don't know if its being uniformly reported by every country the same way, or even within a country itself....if regional health authorities are all using the same criteria.

I know most like hard and fast answers...it keeps things simple. He had covid-19 and he died, ergo covid-19 is the cause of death. I know a bit about Diabetes because my father had the disease....most people don't actually die of diabetes, because the disease is insidious and attacks other organs like the heart and kidneys, lots of diabetics die of kidney failure....but if they weren't diabetic chances are their kidneys would have been fine.....I think they list the death as kidney failure complicated by diabetes....now diabetics have this virus to contend with as well.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
698
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So a virus that attacks the lining of the lungs, because a person's immune system can not produce the antibodies need to fight the virus, is not the cause of that person's death. Where do you folks dig up this nonsense? Sure the person might have died anyway, but suffice it to say that covid19 not only hastened his death, it also made the death much more painful to him.
Prove there is a virus. Prove it is the virus attacking the lungs. Prove that the immune system could not produce the antibodies needed to fight the virus. That's all we are asking. If you can prove that, no one would have an objection to listing the death as covid-1984 related. The issue is that *none* of this is being proved. So it looks like it is you who is preaching the nonsense.

We know much more about the virus today than we did at the beginning of March. We know who is most susceptible to complications, and how to mitigate the damage the complications cause. Now let's get back to work, while we put that knowledge to work protecting those who are the most susceptible to complications.

Pray that the next mutation of the virus doesn't attack today's young and healthy bodies.
Prove that viruses can mutate to become deadlier or more contagious. (Hint: You'll need to prove the virus even exists, first). Remember, the only proof they have that polio is contagious is the study where the scientists paralysed one monkey and killed another by injecting spinal fluid directly into their brains. Normal injections and ingestion didn't cut it.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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I am not a WHO fan, either, but it does somewhat bother me that this idea is so widely circulated, that someone died of a condition they could have easily survived another decade or so with is the cause of death and not COVID when it is present. If COVID greatly hastened their death, why is it illegitimate to cite it as the cause of death?
It isn't.

A virus will do two things to cause death.

It will find a vulnerable spot in the body and hasten death for some, not all, depending upon the immunological response and treatment available.

Or the healthy body will over respond to the virus, meaning the immunological response is in excess of that is needed so that the body begins to attack itself in which case the person dies as well. This case being more an anomaly.

In any case the truth of the matter is one just has to compare the number of deaths in New York State over the same time period from last year, all cause mortality is 325% over normal... so really the argument that Covid-19 did not cause the death is really moot.

Now some may go to conspiracy land and state the fake death certificates are being issued, however there would have to be many, many doctors in on that plot risking to loose their license to practice medicine by falsify reports since the data is from across the state
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
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It isn't.

A virus will do two things to cause death.

It will find a vulnerable spot in the body and hasten death for some, not all, depending upon the immunological response and treatment available.

Or the healthy body will over respond to the virus, meaning the immunological response is in excess of that is needed so that the body begins to attack itself in which case the person dies as well. This case being more an anomaly.

In any case the truth of the matter is one just has to compare the number of deaths in New York State over the same time period from last year, all cause mortality is 325% over normal... so really the argument that Covid-19 did not cause the death is really moot.

Now some may go to conspiracy land and state the fake death certificates are being issued, however there would have to be many, many doctors in on that plot risking to loose their license to practice medicine by falsify reports since the data is from across the state
If the death rate is higher, THIS is the reason. NOT the virus;

Anxiety From Reactions to Covid-19 Will Destroy At Least Seven Times More Years of Life Than Can Be Saved by Lockdowns
By Andrew Glen, Ph.D. and James D. Agresti
May 4, 2020




Medical studies show that excessive stress and anxiety are among the most debilitating and deadly of all health hazards in the world. Beyond their obvious effects like suicide and substance abuse—these mental stressors are strongly related to and may trigger and inflame a host of ailments like high blood pressure, digestive disorders, heart conditions, infectious diseases, cancer, and pregnancy complications.

Based on a broad array of scientific data, Just Facts has computed that the anxiety created by reactions to Covid-19—such as stay-at-home orders, business shutdowns, media exaggerations, and legitimate concerns about the virus—will destroy at least seven times more years of human life than can possibly be saved by lockdowns to control the spread of the disease. This figure is a bare minimum, and the actual one is likely more than 90 times greater.

This study was reviewed by Joseph P. Damore, Jr., M.D., who concluded: “This research is engaging and thoroughly answers the question about the cure being worse than the disease.” Dr. Damore is a certified diplomate with the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology, an assistant professor of psychiatry at the Weill Medical College of Cornell University, an assistant attending psychiatrist at New York Presbyterian Hospital, and an adjunct professor in the Department of Behavioral Sciences and Leadership at the U.S. Military Academy.

Stress and Anxiety Levels

Scientific surveys of U.S. residents have found that the mental health of about one-third to one-half of all adults has been substantially compromised by reactions to the Covid-19 pandemic. Examples include the following:

  • An American Psychiatric Association survey in mid-March found that 36% of adults report that anxiety over Covid-19 “is having a serious impact on their mental health.”
  • A Kaiser Family Foundation survey in late March found that 45% of adults “feel that worry and stress related to” Covid-19 “has had a negative impact on their mental health, an increase from 32% from early March.” Additionally, 19% of adults said it is having a “major impact” on their mental health.
  • A Benenson Strategy Group survey in late March revealed that the Covid-19 “situation has already affected” the “mental health” of 55% of U.S. adults “either a great deal or somewhat.”
  • A Kaiser Family Foundation survey in late April found that 56% of adults “report that worry and stress related to” Covid-19 “is affecting their mental health and wellbeing in various ways,” such as “trouble sleeping, “poor appetite or over-eating,” “frequent headaches or stomachaches,” “difficulty controlling their temper,” “increasing their alcohol or drug use,” and “worsening chronic conditions like diabetes or high blood pressure.”
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
3,513
432
83
Prove there is a virus. Prove it is the virus attacking the lungs. Prove that the immune system could not produce the antibodies needed to fight the virus. That's all we are asking. If you can prove that, no one would have an objection to listing the death as covid-1984 related. The issue is that *none* of this is being proved. So it looks like it is you who is preaching the nonsense.

Prove that viruses can mutate to become deadlier or more contagious. (Hint: You'll need to prove the virus even exists, first). Remember, the only proof they have that polio is contagious is the study where the scientists paralysed one monkey and killed another by injecting spinal fluid directly into their brains. Normal injections and ingestion didn't cut it.
I have yet to see you prove anything. All I've seen from you is regurgitated nonsense from a bunch of conspiracy theorist.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
8,280
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Lives Saved By Lockdowns

In the science of epidemiology, or the study of human disease, ethical and practical constraints often make it impossible to conduct experiments that can definitively establish the effects of medical interventions. This applies to determining how many lives might be saved by government lockdowns during the Covid-19 pandemic.

One can easily compare Covid-19 death rates—or the number of people who die from the disease divided by the total population where they live—in nations and states that took different actions. However, many other factors can affect these death rates, such as wealth, age, population density, government, hospital protocols, culture, genetics, diet, and exercise. For example, New York State enacted one of the strictest lockdowns in the U.S. but has 22 times the death rate of Florida, which had one of the mildest lockdowns.

Given such considerations, the highest possible figure for lives saved by lockdowns can be estimated by comparing the nations of Scandinavia. This is because these countries are culturally, economically, and genetically similar to one another but have enacted very dissimilar policies to deal with Covid-19. In the words of Paul W. Franks, professor of genetic epidemiology at Lund University in Sweden:

The Swedish approach to Covid-19 could not be more different from its neighbors, placing much of the responsibility for delaying the spread of the virus and protecting the vulnerable in the hands of the public. It’s now April and, albeit with some restrictions, Swedish bars, restaurants and schools remain open. …

This all contrasts the far more assertive physical restrictions imposed in the culturally similar neighboring countries. Across the borders in Denmark, Norway and Finland, schools closed weeks ago and movement has been severely restricted.

Sweden has taken certain measures to slow the spread of Covid-19, like limiting public gatherings to 50 people. However, these can hardly be characterized as “lockdowns,” and Swedish stores, restaurants, schools, beaches, and other public places are open and bustling.

Stockholm, Sweden, April 1, 2020 (TT News Agency/Fredrik Sandberg via Reuters)

Comparing the current death rates of Scandinavian nations yields a maximum figure for the lives saved by lockdowns because Sweden’s plan involves more deaths in the early stages of the pandemic but less later on. As detailed by Professor Franks, simulations show that the overall death rate is “expected to be similar across countries,” but “unlike its peers, Sweden is likely to take the hit sooner and over a shorter period, with the majority of deaths occurring within weeks, rather than months.”

As of April 27th, the death rate in Sweden is 32% higher than in the United States, 3.1 times that of Denmark, 5.8 times that of Norway, and 6.4 times that of Finland:


Applying the Sweden/Finland death rate ratio of 6.4 to the United States, the maximum number of Americans who could have been saved by past and current lockdowns is 616,590. This figure is based on the most pessimistic projection of 114,228 deaths in the U.S. through August 4th by the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation at the University of Washington. It is calculated by multiplying 114,228 deaths by 6.4 and then subtracting the 114,228 deaths that occur regardless of the lockdown.

The figure of 616,590 lives saved by lockdowns in the U.S. is at the extreme high-end of plausibility because it:

  • uses the worst-case projection for the U.S. death toll.
  • compares the death rate in Sweden to Finland, even though Denmark—which has also implemented a strict lockdown—has twice the death rate of Finland.
  • assumes that Sweden’s death rate doesn’t decline relative to its neighbors over time regardless of Sweden’s strategy to build herd immunity consistent with the following facts:
    • The Imperial College—whose cataclysmic projections of Covid-19 deaths have been a driving force behind government lockdowns—has acknowledged that “the more successful a strategy is at temporary suppression, the larger the later epidemic is predicted to be in the absence of vaccination, due to lesser build-up of herd immunity.”
    • A 2012 paper in the journal PLoS One titled “Immunity in Society” notes that “when a sufficiently high proportion of individuals within a population becomes immune (either through prior exposure or through mass vaccination), community or ‘herd’ immunity emerges, whereby individuals that are poorly immunized are protected by the collective ‘immune firewall’ provided by immunized neighbors.”
    • Large portions of people are highly resistant to Covid-19 and experience no symptoms when they catch it, later making them firewalls against the spread of the disease. For example, the New England Journal of Medicine reported in mid-April that universal Covid-19 testing of pregnant women at two New York City hospitals found that 88% of the women who tested positive for the disease were asymptomatic.
    • U.S. states with strict lockdowns—like New Jersey and New York—have Covid-19 death rates that are three to five times that of Sweden’s:


Nonetheless, this study uses the highly improbable and optimistic scenario of 616,590 lives saved by lockdowns. This figure forms the third key basis of the study.

Comparing Life Lost and Saved

Combining the first two key figures of this study, anxiety from responses to Covid-19 has impacted 42,873,663 adults and will rob them of an average of 1.3 years of life, thus destroying 55.7 million years of life.

Combining the third key figure of this study with data on Covid-19 deaths, a maximum of 616,590 lives might be saved by the current lockdowns, and the disease robs an average of 12 years of life from each of its victims, which means that the current lockdowns can save no more than 7.4 million years of life.
 
Aug 10, 2019
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It isn't.

A virus will do two things to cause death.

It will find a vulnerable spot in the body and hasten death for some, not all, depending upon the immunological response and treatment available.

Or the healthy body will over respond to the virus, meaning the immunological response is in excess of that is needed so that the body begins to attack itself in which case the person dies as well. This case being more an anomaly.

In any case the truth of the matter is one just has to compare the number of deaths in New York State over the same time period from last year, all cause mortality is 325% over normal... so really the argument that Covid-19 did not cause the death is really moot.

Now some may go to conspiracy land and state the fake death certificates are being issued, however there would have to be many, many doctors in on that plot risking to loose their license to practice medicine by falsify reports since the data is from across the state
One thing that will be interesting to see, in a sadly morbid way, is what all cause mortality is like in the years to come. The Toronto Star ran an article with a headline saying 82% of deaths are in LTC/Nursing home type settings, but I didn't read the article so I don't know if that's specific to Ontario, Toronto, or Canada wide.

Regardless I think its a farily agreed upon fact that the overwhelming majority of deaths are occuring among the elderly....one article I read said that those age 60+ are something like 3x more likely to die from Covid, and that those aged 70+ are almost 10x more likely to die than those aged 60-69, and finally that those aged 80+ are more than twice as likely to die as 70-79 year olds. I'm not sure if I'm remembering that exactly right but it makes sense that as age increases the mortality rate jumps.

I think in Canada as a whole, that all cause mortality is in the range of 275,000 per year....and its been climbing year or year for a while. Just checked....287,000 in 2019 as per stats can, and its been climbing 4 straight years in a row and the trend is steadily higher since 2000. https://www.statista.com/statistics/443061/number-of-deaths-in-canada/

Once a vaccine is finally devloped it'll be interesting (again, in a sadly morbid way) to see if we start seeing lower numbers for a few years in a row. I've read that someone going into a LTC type facility in Canada, that the average life expectancy after arrival is something like 2 years on average.

I'm liking our response in Ontario so far....a very gradual re-opening while maintaining social distancing protocols. To me its a good balancing act, between those who are focused on fear of community spread, and those who are concerned about the impact of lockdown measures.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
7,395
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One thing that will be interesting to see, in a sadly morbid way, is what all cause mortality is like in the years to come. The Toronto Star ran an article with a headline saying 82% of deaths are in LTC/Nursing home type settings, but I didn't read the article so I don't know if that's specific to Ontario, Toronto, or Canada wide.

Regardless I think its a farily agreed upon fact that the overwhelming majority of deaths are occuring among the elderly....one article I read said that those age 60+ are something like 3x more likely to die from Covid, and that those aged 70+ are almost 10x more likely to die than those aged 60-69, and finally that those aged 80+ are more than twice as likely to die as 70-79 year olds. I'm not sure if I'm remembering that exactly right but it makes sense that as age increases the mortality rate jumps.

I think in Canada as a whole, that all cause mortality is in the range of 275,000 per year....and its been climbing year or year for a while. Just checked....287,000 in 2019 as per stats can, and its been climbing 4 straight years in a row and the trend is steadily higher since 2000. https://www.statista.com/statistics/443061/number-of-deaths-in-canada/

Once a vaccine is finally devloped it'll be interesting (again, in a sadly morbid way) to see if we start seeing lower numbers for a few years in a row. I've read that someone going into a LTC type facility in Canada, that the average life expectancy after arrival is something like 2 years on average.

I'm liking our response in Ontario so far....a very gradual re-opening while maintaining social distancing protocols. To me its a good balancing act, between those who are focused on fear of community spread, and those who are concerned about the impact of lockdown measures.

There has never been a vaccine for a Corona virus.... not easily done because of the formation of the virus and how it invades the body.
 
Aug 10, 2019
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There has never been a vaccine for a Corona virus.... not easily done because of the formation of the virus and how it invades the body.
I wasn't saying that there "is" a vaccine....sorry if I didn't word my post well. I am assuming that there will be one eventually, in another year or so if proper safety trial protocols are followed.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
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I wasn't saying that there "is" a vaccine....sorry if I didn't word my post well. I am assuming that there will be one eventually, in another year or so if proper safety trial protocols are followed.
What I am saying is there has never been a vaccine for a corona virus produced.... not been done.

The lastest projection I was told by a doctor was five years... if they can do it.

I have also been told we will just have to live with this threat in the world for a long time to come and hope that natural immunity lasts longer than two years.
 
Jun 10, 2019
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One thing I am noticing is the global cases of the serious to critical patients is steadily dropping over the last two weeks.
 
Aug 10, 2019
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What I am saying is there has never been a vaccine for a corona virus produced.... not been done.

The lastest projection I was told by a doctor was five years... if they can do it.

I have also been told we will just have to live with this threat in the world for a long time to come and hope that natural immunity lasts longer than two years.
Five years??? I had been operating under the assumption (always dangerous I know) that it would take 12 to 18 months at minimum....that's the time frame that's been widely reprorted. I've been worried that in a rush to bring a vaccine to market that short cuts would be taken....and that full scale large human trials might be stream lined somehow. Assuming a vaccine is developed at some point, be it in a another year or five....so long as its not mandatory its all good in my opinion....but I won't be lining up for it if its available...I'll be waiting and watching, at some point I might decide I want it.
 
Aug 10, 2019
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Canada
One thing I am noticing is the global cases of the serious to critical patients is steadily dropping over the last two weeks.
In Canada the number of serious/critical cases is less than 1.6% of the total current case load. When I first started looking the % was something like 2.2%, that's when Canada was testing about 10K per 1 million of population, now we're up around 27K per million. As more and more testing is done they're obviously going to be identifying more and more asymptomatic and very mild cases.....at the start the only people being tested were those falling ill and front line health care workers....or those who'd been potentially exposed.

I wish Canada would do a large radmoized sampling of 10,000 people or so.....similar to what's been done by USC, Oxford and Stanford, something to give us a better idea of how widespread infection really is.
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
7,395
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Five years??? I had been operating under the assumption (always dangerous I know) that it would take 12 to 18 months at minimum....that's the time frame that's been widely reprorted. I've been worried that in a rush to bring a vaccine to market that short cuts would be taken....and that full scale large human trials might be stream lined somehow. Assuming a vaccine is developed at some point, be it in a another year or five....so long as its not mandatory its all good in my opinion....but I won't be lining up for it if its available...I'll be waiting and watching, at some point I might decide I want it.
Like I said they have never been able to produce a vaccine for a corona virus... SARS 1 (corona virus one) happened in 2004.

If anything it will only be partially effective... so I it will be pursued I am sure... lots of money will be spent.

An immune response is not always effective enough to protect against the disease.
 
Aug 10, 2019
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Like I said they have never been able to produce a vaccine for a corona virus... SARS 1 (corona virus one) happened in 2004.

If anything it will only be partially effective... so I it will be pursued I am sure... lots of money will be spent.

An immune response is not always effective enough to protect against the disease.
Thanks for sending me down yet another rabbitt hole, just finished reading this article...suggesting an eventual vaccine might be like the annual flu vaccine, targetting different strains if the virus ends up mutating like influenza....there are lots of questions and precious few answers. If a vaccine is developed it might last a long time, or require a periodic booster, or be annual....if one is developed at all.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...-that-s-the-million-dollar-question-1.5558764
 

EleventhHour

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
7,395
7,806
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Thanks for sending me down yet another rabbitt hole, just finished reading this article...suggesting an eventual vaccine might be like the annual flu vaccine, targetting different strains if the virus ends up mutating like influenza....there are lots of questions and precious few answers. If a vaccine is developed it might last a long time, or require a periodic booster, or be annual....if one is developed at all.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toro...-that-s-the-million-dollar-question-1.5558764
I hear ya.. I really do.