Ukraine and Russia: Truth and Propaganda

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ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
32,942
5,776
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The FACT is that Putin started the war. No one put a gun to his head and made him do it. Europe was dependent on Russian oil and gas and had no motivation to trouble Russia. No one went to war with Russia. I don't know how much clearer that can be. Russia went to war with Ukraine.

America has a history of botched military adventures. Afghanistan is just one more catastrophe. It's not the sole domain of Democrats either. Iraq was on a Republican watch and Libya was Obama's disaster. Biden's fiasco was just one of a long line going back to Vietnam. I'm old enough to know these things. I was in the military during the Vietnam war.
As I have said repeatedly, I have no issue if you want to go and help out the cause in Ukraine, nor do I have any issue with you selling your house and giving it to Zelensky.

Instead of telling America what more we have to do after we have already contributed far more than any other country why don't you just focus on what your contribution will be to this "battle for freedom".

I don't think Americans should be telling people in the UK or Australia what they should do, I feel it is arrogant and obnoxious. In the same way it is offensive when people from UK and Australia tell Americans what to do, especially when this is a European war and we are doing far more than either UK or Australia are doing.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
4,994
2,912
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As I have said repeatedly, I have no issue if you want to go and help out the cause in Ukraine, nor do I have any issue with you selling your house and giving it to Zelensky.

Instead of telling America what more we have to do after we have already contributed far more than any other country why don't you just focus on what your contribution will be to this "battle for freedom".

I don't think Americans should be telling people in the UK or Australia what they should do, I feel it is arrogant and obnoxious. In the same way it is offensive when people from UK and Australia tell Americans what to do, especially when this is a European war and we are doing far more than either UK or Australia are doing.
I am not trying to tell anyone what to do about the war. I happen to believe that supporting Ukraine is the right thing. It should have happened in 2014 when Russia invaded illegally. All I'm saying is that Russia, not Europe, America or Ukraine are the bad guys here.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
19,090
7,393
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As I have said repeatedly, I have no issue if you want to go and help out the cause in Ukraine, nor do I have any issue with you selling your house and giving it to Zelensky.

Instead of telling America what more we have to do after we have already contributed far more than any other country why don't you just focus on what your contribution will be to this "battle for freedom".

I don't think Americans should be telling people in the UK or Australia what they should do, I feel it is arrogant and obnoxious. In the same way it is offensive when people from UK and Australia tell Americans what to do, especially when this is a European war and we are doing far more than either UK or Australia are doing.
10% Joey giving $100 billion to Ukraine is copasetic with y'all?
I mean what a payday this bogus war turned out be.
A bigger payday than when they were grifting the joint before the war ever started that's for sure.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
32,942
5,776
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You need to get up to speed with China's progress. It's already the world's largest naval power as far as number of ships. It's not the most experienced but it's well armed. China has a substantial submarine fleet. My hope is that they build their ships out of the same rubbish steel that they export to Australia. The first big storm will sink half their fleet.

China has a pretty good air force also. Will Japan/US /Australia go to war over Taiwan? I don't know. I'm doubtful.
Japan has the most technologically advanced naval ships, combine that with the US Navy and Australia and we can keep the East coast of Taiwan open, hence any naval blockade will fail.

I am not interested in raw tonnage, let's see how they perform in battle. There is a reason that "made in China" has the meaning that it does.

The most difficult job is to try and take a heavily fortified mountainous tropical island. Taiwan is the ideal defensive position and they have had over 40 years of being able to dig in. China would suffer horrific losses if they tried to take Taiwan. Also the prize in Taiwan is their semi conductor industry. If you destroyed that in a war you destroy the prize. That means no EMP, no tactical nukes in these areas.

Also no one should underestimate Taiwan's ability to deliver deadly counterstrikes on China. I lived in Taiwan for 8 years. They have very sophisticated weapons, drones, and smart bombs. Mainland China has an infrastructure hanging by a thread. Take out a few dams, blow up a few power stations and the whole country goes dark. They depend on the trains to feed the cities. Take out the trains, take out the power and there would be massive chaos and Taiwan is capable of that.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
32,942
5,776
113
If. How will the alliance keep shipping lanes open without going to war?
Taiwan, unlike Ukraine is a matter of vital national defense for the US. Also, we do have a treaty with Taiwan. If China attacks Taiwan we will go to war, so will Japan and so will Australia.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,774
13,135
113
All I'm saying is that Russia, not Europe, America or Ukraine are the bad guys here.
If Russia is the bad guy here, why has every Western leader SABOTAGED a negotiated peace settlement between Russia and Ukraine every time it has been presented, and talked incessantly about war, war, war, and WWIII? The warmongers are actually Biden and all the NATO members.

No matter what we think of the CCP, it is China that has presented a sensible plan to deal with the conflict. Here is what they have proposed:
China’s Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis
2023-02-24 09:00
1. Respecting the sovereignty of all countries. Universally recognized international law, including the purposes and principles of the United Nations Charter, must be strictly observed. The sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries must be effectively upheld. All countries, big or small, strong or weak, rich or poor, are equal members of the international community. All parties should jointly uphold the basic norms governing international relations and defend international fairness and justice. Equal and uniform application of international law should be promoted, while double standards must be rejected.
2. Abandoning the Cold War mentality. The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others. The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. The legitimate security interests and concerns of all countries must be taken seriously and addressed properly. There is no simple solution to a complex issue. All parties should, following the vision of common, comprehensive, cooperative and sustainable security and bearing in mind the long-term peace and stability of the world, help forge a balanced, effective and sustainable European security architecture. All parties should oppose the pursuit of one’s own security at the cost of others’ security, prevent bloc confrontation, and work together for peace and stability on the Eurasian Continent.
3. Ceasing hostilities. Conflict and war benefit no one. All parties must stay rational and exercise restraint, avoid fanning the flames and aggravating tensions, and prevent the crisis from deteriorating further or even spiraling out of control. All parties should support Russia and Ukraine in working in the same direction and resuming direct dialogue as quickly as possible, so as to gradually deescalate the situation and ultimately reach a comprehensive ceasefire.
4. Resuming peace talks. Dialogue and negotiation are the only viable solution to the Ukraine crisis. All efforts conducive to the peaceful settlement of the crisis must be encouraged and supported. The international community should stay committed to the right approach of promoting talks for peace, help parties to the conflict open the door to a political settlement as soon as possible, and create conditions and platforms for the resumption of negotiation. China will continue to play a constructive role in this regard.
5. Resolving the humanitarian crisis. All measures conducive to easing the humanitarian crisis must be encouraged and supported. Humanitarian operations should follow the principles of neutrality and impartiality, and humanitarian issues should not be politicized. The safety of civilians must be effectively protected, and humanitarian corridors should be set up for the evacuation of civilians from conflict zones. Efforts are needed to increase humanitarian assistance to relevant areas, improve humanitarian conditions, and provide rapid, safe and unimpeded humanitarian access, with a view to preventing a humanitarian crisis on a larger scale. The UN should be supported in playing a coordinating role in channeling humanitarian aid to conflict zones.
6. Protecting civilians and prisoners of war (POWs). Parties to the conflict should strictly abide by international humanitarian law, avoid attacking civilians or civilian facilities, protect women, children and other victims of the conflict, and respect the basic rights of POWs. China supports the exchange of POWs between Russia and Ukraine, and calls on all parties to create more favorable conditions for this purpose.
7. Keeping nuclear power plants safe. China opposes armed attacks against nuclear power plants or other peaceful nuclear facilities, and calls on all parties to comply with international law including the Convention on Nuclear Safety (CNS) and resolutely avoid man-made nuclear accidents. China supports the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in playing a constructive role in promoting the safety and security of peaceful nuclear facilities.
8. Reducing strategic risks. Nuclear weapons must not be used and nuclear wars must not be fought. The threat or use of nuclear weapons should be opposed. Nuclear proliferation must be prevented and nuclear crisis avoided. China opposes the research, development and use of chemical and biological weapons by any country under any circumstances.
9. Facilitating grain exports. All parties need to implement the Black Sea Grain Initiative signed by Russia, Türkiye, Ukraine and the UN fully and effectively in a balanced manner, and support the UN in playing an important role in this regard. The cooperation initiative on global food security proposed by China provides a feasible solution to the global food crisis.
10. Stopping unilateral sanctions. Unilateral sanctions and maximum pressure cannot solve the issue; they only create new problems. China opposes unilateral sanctions unauthorized by the UN Security Council. Relevant countries should stop abusing unilateral sanctions and “long-arm jurisdiction” against other countries, so as to do their share in deescalating the Ukraine crisis and create conditions for developing countries to grow their economies and better the lives of their people.
11. Keeping industrial and supply chains stable. All parties should earnestly maintain the existing world economic system and oppose using the world economy as a tool or weapon for political purposes. Joint efforts are needed to mitigate the spillovers of the crisis and prevent it from disrupting international cooperation in energy, finance, food trade and transportation and undermining the global economic recovery.
12. Promoting post-conflict reconstruction. The international community needs to take measures to support post-conflict reconstruction in conflict zones. China stands ready to provide assistance and play a constructive role in this endeavor.


Can any sane person object to any of this? At least in this particular case, China is the only country which has actually come up with something sane and sensible.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,814
2,277
113
If Russia is the bad guy here, why has every Western leader SABOTAGED a negotiated peace settlement between Russia and Ukraine every time it has been presented, and talked incessantly about war, war, war, and WWIII? The warmongers are actually Biden and all the NATO members.

No matter what we think of the CCP, it is China that has presented a sensible plan to deal with the conflict. Here is what they have proposed:
China’s Position on the Political Settlement of the Ukraine Crisis
2023-02-24 09:00
1. Respecting the sovereignty of all countries. Universally recognized international law, including the purposes and principles of the United Nations Charter, must be strictly observed. The sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all countries must be effectively upheld. All countries, big or small, strong or weak, rich or poor, are equal members of the international community. All parties should jointly uphold the basic norms governing international relations and defend international fairness and justice. Equal and uniform application of international law should be promoted, while double standards must be rejected.
2. Abandoning the Cold War mentality. The security of a country should not be pursued at the expense of others. The security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs. The legitimate security interests and concerns of all countries must be taken seriously and addressed properly. There is no simple solution to a complex issue. All parties should, following the vision of common, comprehensive, cooperative and sustainable security and bearing in mind the long-term peace and stability of the world, help forge a balanced, effective and sustainable European security architecture. All parties should oppose the pursuit of one’s own security at the cost of others’ security, prevent bloc confrontation, and work together for peace and stability on the Eurasian Continent.
3. Ceasing hostilities. Conflict and war benefit no one. All parties must stay rational and exercise restraint, avoid fanning the flames and aggravating tensions, and prevent the crisis from deteriorating further or even spiraling out of control. All parties should support Russia and Ukraine in working in the same direction and resuming direct dialogue as quickly as possible, so as to gradually deescalate the situation and ultimately reach a comprehensive ceasefire.
4. Resuming peace talks. Dialogue and negotiation are the only viable solution to the Ukraine crisis. All efforts conducive to the peaceful settlement of the crisis must be encouraged and supported. The international community should stay committed to the right approach of promoting talks for peace, help parties to the conflict open the door to a political settlement as soon as possible, and create conditions and platforms for the resumption of negotiation. China will continue to play a constructive role in this regard.
5. Resolving the humanitarian crisis. All measures conducive to easing the humanitarian crisis must be encouraged and supported. Humanitarian operations should follow the principles of neutrality and impartiality, and humanitarian issues should not be politicized. The safety of civilians must be effectively protected, and humanitarian corridors should be set up for the evacuation of civilians from conflict zones. Efforts are needed to increase humanitarian assistance to relevant areas, improve humanitarian conditions, and provide rapid, safe and unimpeded humanitarian access, with a view to preventing a humanitarian crisis on a larger scale. The UN should be supported in playing a coordinating role in channeling humanitarian aid to conflict zones.
6. Protecting civilians and prisoners of war (POWs). Parties to the conflict should strictly abide by international humanitarian law, avoid attacking civilians or civilian facilities, protect women, children and other victims of the conflict, and respect the basic rights of POWs. China supports the exchange of POWs between Russia and Ukraine, and calls on all parties to create more favorable conditions for this purpose.
7. Keeping nuclear power plants safe. China opposes armed attacks against nuclear power plants or other peaceful nuclear facilities, and calls on all parties to comply with international law including the Convention on Nuclear Safety (CNS) and resolutely avoid man-made nuclear accidents. China supports the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) in playing a constructive role in promoting the safety and security of peaceful nuclear facilities.
8. Reducing strategic risks. Nuclear weapons must not be used and nuclear wars must not be fought. The threat or use of nuclear weapons should be opposed. Nuclear proliferation must be prevented and nuclear crisis avoided. China opposes the research, development and use of chemical and biological weapons by any country under any circumstances.
9. Facilitating grain exports. All parties need to implement the Black Sea Grain Initiative signed by Russia, Türkiye, Ukraine and the UN fully and effectively in a balanced manner, and support the UN in playing an important role in this regard. The cooperation initiative on global food security proposed by China provides a feasible solution to the global food crisis.
10. Stopping unilateral sanctions. Unilateral sanctions and maximum pressure cannot solve the issue; they only create new problems. China opposes unilateral sanctions unauthorized by the UN Security Council. Relevant countries should stop abusing unilateral sanctions and “long-arm jurisdiction” against other countries, so as to do their share in deescalating the Ukraine crisis and create conditions for developing countries to grow their economies and better the lives of their people.
11. Keeping industrial and supply chains stable. All parties should earnestly maintain the existing world economic system and oppose using the world economy as a tool or weapon for political purposes. Joint efforts are needed to mitigate the spillovers of the crisis and prevent it from disrupting international cooperation in energy, finance, food trade and transportation and undermining the global economic recovery.
12. Promoting post-conflict reconstruction. The international community needs to take measures to support post-conflict reconstruction in conflict zones. China stands ready to provide assistance and play a constructive role in this endeavor.


Can any sane person object to any of this? At least in this particular case, China is the only country which has actually come up with something sane and sensible.
Might be more believable IF CCP hadn't just sold Russia a WHOLE BUNCH of military drones a few hours before releasing this plan.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
19,090
7,393
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Might be more believable IF CCP hadn't just sold Russia a WHOLE BUNCH of military drones a few hours before releasing this plan.
Well then NATO had better get a move on with this peace plan shouldn't they?
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,814
2,277
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One year of war....
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,814
2,277
113
Well then NATO had better get a move on with this peace plan shouldn't they?
China wants Russia and the US to destroy each other so they can take over the world....been their long term plan since 1950's and 60's. They have actively and consistently stoked hostilities of both nations towards each other....even with limited engagements in Korea and Vietnam by their military.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,814
2,277
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From MI6's lips to your ears.
Why don't you actually watch the video instead of just rejecting it because you think it's biased.

I'm A-Political to begin with....you are a Republican. Instead of practicing oppositional politics (which is the ONLY reason why Republicans oppose Biden helping Ukraine) use INDEPENDENT thought.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
19,090
7,393
113
China wants Russia and the US to destroy each other so they can take over the world....been their long term plan since 1950's and 60's. They have actively and consistently stoked hostilities of both nations towards each other....even with limited engagements in Korea and Vietnam by their military.
So that is why they are attempting to broker this latest peace plan? I admit, the PP may be a feint and a ruse. But it is better than nothing.

Never forget.....Z must do exactly as he is told, by the US and the AZOV nutter apparatchiks. Z was perusing peace negotiations (as was Germany) a year ago. Both got slapped down.

I find it truly amazing that Germany and the EU had their pipeline destroyed by the US/Britian et al and didn't say boo.
I would have exposed/prosecuted the perps and sought financial damages. But they did not. What they DID do is escalate further. Like a bunch of sniveling spineless geeks who allowed crimes against their country and people to go unpunished.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
19,090
7,393
113
Why don't you actually watch the video instead of just rejecting it because you think it's biased.

I'm A-Political to begin with....you are a Republican. Instead of practicing oppositional politics (which is the ONLY reason why Republicans oppose Biden helping Ukraine) use INDEPENDENT thought.
I did watch the video (quickly). Reminded me of typical BBC tommyrot.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
19,090
7,393
113
Why don't you actually watch the video instead of just rejecting it because you think it's biased.

I'm A-Political to begin with....you are a Republican. Instead of practicing oppositional politics (which is the ONLY reason why Republicans oppose Biden helping Ukraine) use INDEPENDENT thought.
So you are a Dem are you? Here....this should help adjust your perspective toward a Daniel ch 7 accurate view of things....

1677333371671.png
1677333510192.png
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,814
2,277
113
So you are a Dem are you? Here....this should help adjust your perspective toward a Daniel ch 7 accurate view of things....

View attachment 248774
View attachment 248775
I'm not a Democrat either....

Again I am A-Political....meaning against ALL political parties...

I believe only in a monarchy system of government. Which is vastly different than what you favor. I don't believe in voting or in communism or Marxism or socialism. All are evil because they are man made contrivance.

WATCH the video!
Then you might be able to hold an intelligent conversation about the subject instead of regurgitating the propaganda your political masters want you to parrot.