United Methodists face vote on LGBTQ issues

[SIMON55]

Simon: "Do you believe that God doesn't HATE ?
First, your question wrongly assumes that we must imitate God. God says, "Vengeance is mine. I will repay, says the Lord." But we ae forbidden to be vengeful or hateful.
Second, you apparently don't understand the meaning of the Hebrew word for "hate." It often does NOT express loathing or negative emotion, but rather preference and priorities. Thus, Jesus teaches that we can't be His disciples unless we "hate" our families.
" God is love and in Him is no darkness at all."

Simon: "Do you believe Jesus never hated anything?"
Jesus was fully human, "grew in wisdom and favor with God," had to Learn obedience through the things He suffered," and "was tested in every way just as we are." So yes, Jesus had to battle the whole range of human emotions, including hatred. \
How do you define an abomination?

Simon: "Have you read Gods word?"
Yes, and I love God's Word enough to learn Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Do you?

I don't know how I could have wrongly made the assumption you allege when I don't believe us capable of imitating God ....and God being God and the only one I think the best we might do is aspire to model our character and traits to align in agreement with his....but to aspire to even consistently mimic what is humanly possible would be the best we could hope for....and Jesus DNA wasn't corrupted by having human father DNA so you know he only had 23 human chromasome and 1 perfect God cromasome so we have 22 more flawed human chromasome than he did.
As far as linguistics go I don't attempt to learn more than one...because I find mastering it to be a big enough project.
So instead I trust the RUACH to move my understanding where it desires to... But I am confident once you master the ancient paleo hebrew pictogramic language you will find the whole story of salvation contained at the begining....God is the master of luinguistics who spoke the whole creation into existence and for me to presume to imitate that would be delusional.....
Please provide scripture that indicates Christ was only fully human....to me your reference doesn't sustain that....I don't see any other fully humans performing divine miracles...next to Christ Moses and Elijah driving out demons in the power of Christs name kind of pales in comparison....the apostles annointings may have allowed them to be credible imitators but I wouldn't suppose myself to be that able.....
So.....in english abomination is strong hatred....either there is a mistranslation or an abomination is an abomination no matter how you tri-lingual slice and dice it......but if you are going to refer to other languages you should use strongs concordance numbers or bolinger quotations when conversing in english "apparently"
Claiming Christ to be "fully human" is a deceptive misleading assertion because sure he was fully human and THE SON OF GOD WITH DIVINE MIRACULOUS POWERS not displayed by any other since......
I myself have been out of body levitated to a heaven somewhere as Paul described and caused to cry out father Abba by adoption but by no power of my own did I effect a 180 degree psychic change other than prayer request and faith.
Vengence may not be ours but defense most certainly is . The strong man does suffer his house to be broken into...the cloaks are sold for daggers and God says send the premeditating murder who lays in wait to him.
But to accept that Christs DNA make up was merely mortal his capacities were thus limited is illogical and not intellectually conceivable....when he was not conceived by a human father and we are told he is Emanuel in advance and existed in the beginning and the word was with God and the Word was God.

 

[NayborBear]

Our job as preacher is not to communicate the truth, but to communicate the truth in the way that makes the difference. Haranguing homosexuality from the pulpit may make us feel righteous, but it makes gays and lesbians feel despised and just ensures that they will reject the Gospel. Pre-evangelism is crucial. Homosexuals need to feel loved and welcome in the church until they can develop a healthy respect for God's Word and then reexamine their lifestyles. One of the most harmful clichés ever minted by evangelicals is "Love the sinne, but hate the sin." Hate is an energy felt as rejection by its target who won't feel loved by the preacher condemning them. Instead, we need to replace hatred in all its forms and accept seekers just the way they are until the Holy Spirit has a chance to woo them to God's grace through our positive accepting attitude and love.

Another one that doesn't "get it!"-smh
LBGT's are an ABOMINATION in the eyes of God! But, there alright in your eyes? These "freaks" SHOULD feel despised! They are an ABOMINATION! Especially IN the Church!
These Baal worshipers are not EVER going to develop a healthy respect for God's word! EVER!!!!
They don't come to a Church building to be converted from their godless and lawless ways!
If ANYTHING? God is allowing them in! Not to be converted, but, as a "sign" to any/everyone who keeps allowing them entrance, as a WITNESS AGAINST THEM! As if to say "these are NOT "MY People!"

Case ya haven't noticed dude?
Joel 1
4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.
5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.
6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.
13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.

 

[SIMON55]

Simon: "Do you believe that God doesn't HATE ?
First, your question wrongly assumes that we must imitate God. God says, "Vengeance is mine. I will repay, says the Lord." But we ae forbidden to be vengeful or hateful.
Second, you apparently don't understand the meaning of the Hebrew word for "hate." It often does NOT express loathing or negative emotion, but rather preference and priorities. Thus, Jesus teaches that we can't be His disciples unless we "hate" our families.
" God is love and in Him is no darkness at all."

Simon: "Do you believe Jesus never hated anything?"
Jesus was fully human, "grew in wisdom and favor with God," had to Learn obedience through the things He suffered," and "was tested in every way just as we are." So yes, Jesus had to battle the whole range of human emotions, including hatred. \
How do you define an abomination?

Simon: "Have you read Gods word?"
Yes, and I love God's Word enough to learn Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Do you?

In my opinion from my experience when people are severely ILL they aren't convicted by love and compassion or frothy emotional appeal ....they are convicted by shame and guilt of conscience unto repentance by the conviction of Gods word or they hit bottom and become sick and tire of being sick and tired.
I had a close family member cousin that died of aids nothing could be done for him he would dissappear to places where he couldn't be found and most likely was engaging in the spread of disease......
If you wish to bring disease into the church and place others at exposure risk in your ministry then that is on you....but I am not someone that agrees with it. Not because I don't have any compassion for Ill people. But because I don't think people that aren't afflicted with certain abominations shouldn't be forced to being exposed to them by societal pressure. The abominations of today far exceed that of those of the time of Christ and society is collaborating with Satan as far as I can see with all they want to promote acceptance of....I don't conform to societies expectations I judge for myself what is acceptable to me.....It's fine for you if you feel called to involve yourself.
I don't feel that way.

 

[LaurieB]

In Other words, you make YOURSELF out to be god.

Same exact lie the woman believed from the devil in the garden.

"Did God really say..."

You pick and choose like your at a buffet, the parts you like, and discard the parts you don't like.
The Bible speaks of curses and punishment for those that do that.
Please repent and believe.

Repent for what, Penn Ed? For thinking. For questioning. For using my God-given brain and for seeing that the Bible is NOT innerrant. It is NOT. Just one case: the sun does not revolve around the earth. We know this is not so. Gallileo was put to death for saying it is not so. Now we know better. That is one iinnerant thing in the Bible. It is not God's fault that it is innerant. He IS innerant, but those who wrote, copied and recopied ... by hand on paprus over and over again Did make mistakes. It would be impossible not to. Then we have the language changes. From Hebrew to Greek and then Aramaic (a really difficult challenge). Anyone who speaks a foreign language knows that you cannot translate exactly ... you paraprhase. You get similar, not exact same words. Then we have the problem of the many different Bibles and languages that the Greek was translated to. Perhaps the original writers had it right, but do you think we can trust all those who rewrote, and translated? W

 

[kaylagrl]

We are absolutely to judge those that name themselves as a brother in the Church. But the exact opposite is true for those that are NOT a brother or sister in Christ. THEY should be welcomed so that they can hear the Word and be saved.
And if the offenders repent of their sin, they must be forgiven and accepted back.

So whatever UM individual Churches decide to not only accept homosexuals and the farce of marrying them, but in effect encourage that detestable behavior, those members should LEAVE that Church IMMEDIATELY.

Only God can judge because He is sinless. We (humans) are all sinners. There are many invisible sins, and so, we do not judge those sinners. We judge gay people because their sin is "visible" to us. Leave it in God's hands. I dont think you can encourage gay "behavior" (whatever that means) because you dont know what they do or dont do. To throw them out of the church is to do the exact opposite of what Jesus did. Jesus hung out with sinners and did not say "I wont hang out with you until you stop sinning". No. He modeled the right behaviour as should we all. Unless, and until, I am without sin, I will not judge their "sin". Unless, of course, they are harming another: examples wojuld be murderers, stealers, pedophiles, etc. If, like many divorced christians they are sinning, then no ... I can't do anything about that. They have to see it for themselves. It has been said "you cannot change others. you can only change yourself and that is hard enough.
I dont think I am better than any other sinner. Do you? If you find it detestable, ask yourself why since you dont have to do it. jmho, on this matter and humility is what Jesus asks of us.[/QUOTE]




I'm sorry this is wrong on several levels. I realize I will take it in the neck for this but I have to speak up. Someone said the lower the church goes,the world goes lower still (something to that effect).

Only God can judge because He is sinless. We (humans) are all sinners. There are many invisible sins, and so, we do not judge those sinners. We judge gay people because their sin is "visible" to us. Leave it in God's hands.

God has already judged homosexuality as a serious sin,to the point of calling it an abomination. We are not to tolerate it in any way. It was so serious that it came with a death penalty in the OT. Why was it so serious? Because homosexuality attacks the very foundation of Gods plan for the family. Marriage is sacred and is to be treated as so between a man and a woman. What does to tell youth if we allow gay couples to live so blatantly against God? No, we cannot accept gays into the church under the banner of inclusion. The Bible never teaches tolerance or inclusion. Love them,yes, accept their lifestyle,no.

I dont think you can encourage gay "behavior" (whatever that means) because you dont know what they do or dont do.

Men and women having sex with the same sex partner,Bible makes it quite clear what it is and that it is a sin against ones own body.

To throw them out of the church is to do the exact opposite of what Jesus did. Jesus hung out with sinners and did not say "I wont hang out with you until you stop sinning". No. He modeled the right behaviour as should we all.

No, you don't throw them out of church but you make clear that what they are doing is sin,that marriage is between a man and a woman. You make it clear that it is unacceptable. Jesus was clear about sin, He never accepted sin, He never left people in bondage. He said "go thy way and sin no more". He wasn't about tolerance and inclusion.

Unless, and until, I am without sin, I will not judge their "sin". Unless, of course, they are harming another: examples wojuld be murderers, stealers, pedophiles, etc.

But they are harming someone. The very foundation of family,of marriage, which is sacred and ordained by God. I don't how Christians don't understand the bondage homosexuality is and the damage it does to society. Your sin is under the blood. And if we are continually living sinful lifestyles then we are not Christians, only in name. Failing is one thing,but if we are no different from the world what are we saved from? How can a pastor preach the truth,he's not sinless? No,we hold up the standard, we are salt and light.

If, like many divorced christians they are sinning, then no ... I can't do anything about that. They have to see it for themselves. It has been said "you cannot change others. you can only change yourself and that is hard enough.

Preach the Word! Preach the Word! Preach the Word!!! They are in bondage,how can they come to salvation if we are too timid to tell them the truth?! I don't know what Christians of today would do if they sat under Leonard Ravenhill, Billy Sunday and many other preachers. If you truly loved people you would tell them the truth. Holy Ghost conviction drives us to our knees,shows us how sin sick we are and how we need Him. Don't water down the Word.

I dont think I am better than any other sinner. Do you? If you find it detestable, ask yourself why since you dont have to do it. jmho, on this matter and humility is what Jesus asks of us.

We're not sinners,we are under the blood saved by grace. They are not and they need to be told the truth of the Word so they too can be under the blood. Again,if we're no different than the world, then why did Christ die? You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Bible and salvation. Why is it detestable?? I cannot understand how a Christian could ask such a question!! Look to the Word if you wish to know why it is detestable. It's no wonder we are where we are when Christians won't call sin,sin. smh

 

[kaylagrl]

1. Very sorry to hear they feel unworthy of God's grace. We ALL are.
2. There is no shame in the attraction as one is born that way.
3. If they are atheists, they do not believe in God. You cannot be angry at someone/thingyou do not believe in.

There is no shame in the attraction as one is born that way.

No,no way. You are calling God a liar. No one is born that way. God is cruel if He creates someone to be gay and then calls it an abomination. That would be a monster. Read the Word,you are in error.

 

[kaylagrl]

"

They are? In quite a few of Paul's writings he says "this is my opinion". His teachings are reflective of Jesus' teachings but not the exact same thing. No. In fact, many scholars suggest that at least 4 of his letters are forged. Jesus did not directly meet Paul. He did not put his words into Pauls mouth. Jesus teachings were never written down so we have memories of what he said. Paul was a man. Jesus was the Son of God. They are most certainly NOT on the same level.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2010/december/9.25.html (this article is one of many that speaks to the difference).

Wow, you are wrong on so many levels. You need to get into a good Bible believing church! The Bible is the inspired Word if God,it is inerrant. Written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. What Jesus said is in perfect agreement with what Paul said and vice versa. Plenty of writers in the Bible didn't meet Jesus personally. That is the beauty of the Bible,how across time with so many different writers they are all in agreement. Nothing Paul said was against Jesus teachings.

 

[kaylagrl]

Did Paul and Jesus preach the same Gospel? (Evangelical take)

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/did-jesus-preach-the-gospel-of-evangelicalism

Yes!! Yes they did 100% Anyone saying different is talking heresy. Period.

 

[kaylagrl]

Read ... read ... read .... history, history of the bible, how it was put together, changes that might have been made ... scholars seek truth. I, like many non fundamentalist christians believe in God, in Jesus but do not believe the bible is innerrant. I also believe in Evolution which does not discount God at all. And in global warming. I don't need the bible to be completely innerrant to believe in God or in Jesus. I am a Red Letter Christian. If you read what the scholars have said on this and if you really look at the bible you will see that certain things are in error. People are errant and over time as the bible was written and rewritten and translated from one language to another, mistakes were made. one prime example is that the sun does not revolve around the earth for which Galileo was put to death for saying. the earth is not 6,000 years old. I cannot believe these things. To do so would be to deny the reality of evolution, that the earth revolves around the sun, etc.

I, like many non fundamentalist christians believe in God, in Jesus but do not believe the bible is innerrant.

Are saved? Going to heaven? Is there even a heaven? Did Jesus die for our sins? Maybe,maybe not. If the Bible is full of errors how do we know what promises are true and which are not? The Bible is either 100% truth or 100% useless,throw it in the trash with the other magazines with mans opinions.

I also believe in Evolution which does not discount God at all.

Evolution killed God according to the beliefs of the time. That's what they said. Darwin killed God. No need of Him. Darwin believed in survival of the fittest. He believed "negros" were the closest to apes. It was his work from which Margret Sanger and the Nazi's sprang believing they could create a pure race. Planned Parenthood carries on her work in earnest today. Evolution and God have nothing, zero in common. Period.It's a false doctrine of lies that has caused the death of thousands upon thousands.

I cannot believe these things.

Doesn't make them any less true. A good read on the subject is found here...

http://www.apologeticspress.org/APContent.aspx?category=11&article=1151

Galileo was put to death by the Catholic church, not by any command of God. The church was wrong and they interpreted the verses incorrectly.

 

[kaylagrl]

put you hand in the hand of man from Galilee

Odd fact here but I met and know the man that wrote that song many years ago.

 

[kaylagrl]

Our job as preacher is not to communicate the truth, but to communicate the truth in the way that makes the difference. Haranguing homosexuality from the pulpit may make us feel righteous, but it makes gays and lesbians feel despised and just ensures that they will reject the Gospel. Pre-evangelism is crucial. Homosexuals need to feel loved and welcome in the church until they can develop a healthy respect for God's Word and then reexamine their lifestyles. One of the most harmful clichés ever minted by evangelicals is "Love the sinne, but hate the sin." Hate is an energy felt as rejection by its target who won't feel loved by the preacher condemning them. Instead, we need to replace hatred in all its forms and accept seekers just the way they are until the Holy Spirit has a chance to woo them to God's grace through our positive accepting attitude and love.

Haranguing homosexuality from the pulpit may make us feel righteous, but it makes gays and lesbians feel despised and just ensures that they will reject the Gospel.

Brother a sermon that doesn't convict isn't worth the paper it's written on. You preach the Word and let the Holy Spirit do the work!! You are wrong. I've told the story several times of how we were doing a concert one Sunday morning and my father began preaching on homosexuality and how it was sin and was against God and would send a person to hell. We had no idea why he said that out of the blue until there was an alter call. A young man came forward and accepted Christ. He spoke to my father later and said he did not know what he was doing was wrong and was sin. He was about to move in with his lover. The last time we checked he was still in church and doing well. Preach the truth and let the Holy Spirit work. Either God is able to save or He isn't. You trying to hide the truth so as not to offend only continues their bondage when God wants to set them free!!

 

[kaylagrl]

Another one that doesn't "get it!"-smh
LBGT's are an ABOMINATION in the eyes of God! But, there alright in your eyes? These "freaks" SHOULD feel despised! They are an ABOMINATION! Especially IN the Church!
These Baal worshipers are not EVER going to develop a healthy respect for God's word! EVER!!!!
They don't come to a Church building to be converted from their godless and lawless ways!
If ANYTHING? God is allowing them in! Not to be converted, but, as a "sign" to any/everyone who keeps allowing them entrance, as a WITNESS AGAINST THEM! As if to say "these are NOT "MY People!"

Case ya haven't noticed dude?
Joel 1
4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.
5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.
6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.
7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.
13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.

View attachment 194411

While I understand your fervor and I believe homosexuality is an abomination I also believe they,like anyone else, can be saved and delivered of that sin. The NT lists several sins, homosexuality being one, and it says "you were some of these".

 

[kaylagrl]

Repent for what, Penn Ed? For thinking. For questioning. For using my God-given brain and for seeing that the Bible is NOT innerrant. It is NOT. Just one case: the sun does not revolve around the earth. We know this is not so. Gallileo was put to death for saying it is not so. Now we know better. That is one iinnerant thing in the Bible. It is not God's fault that it is innerant. He IS innerant, but those who wrote, copied and recopied ... by hand on paprus over and over again Did make mistakes. It would be impossible not to. Then we have the language changes. From Hebrew to Greek and then Aramaic (a really difficult challenge). Anyone who speaks a foreign language knows that you cannot translate exactly ... you paraprhase. You get similar, not exact same words. Then we have the problem of the many different Bibles and languages that the Greek was translated to. Perhaps the original writers had it right, but do you think we can trust all those who rewrote, and translated? W

You are repeating atheist talking points. Stop it!! The Bible NEVER said the sun does not revolve around the earth. Read some apologetics please. You are spreading a lie. The Bible is 100% true or 100% useless. Throw it in the trash where it belongs. The Bible was written under inspiration of the Holy Spirit and men faithfully wrote that Word. It is inerrant.

 

[JosephsDreams]

The bible is accurate. Unfortunately it does have some minor translation errors. Most bible scholars know this. Read Josh McDowells evidence that demands a verdict. Probably one of the top 3 all time books to give a clear and concise, detailed explanation on the validity of the bible.

 

[JosephsDreams]

Still, saying the bible is incorrect because of a few minor translation errors is like saying that because Christian's sin and even backslide that Jesus' sacrifice was null and void is just the height of ridiculousness.

 

[kaylagrl]

The bible is accurate. Unfortunately it does have some minor translation errors. Most bible scholars know this. Read Josh McDowells evidence that demands a verdict. Probably one of the top 3 all time books to give a clear and concise, detailed explanation on the validity of the bible.

Love that book. Gave it to my sister and they lost it. Hope to replace it sometime.

 

[HeraldtheNews]

Our job as preacher is not to communicate the truth, but to communicate the truth in the way that makes the difference. Haranguing homosexuality from the pulpit may make us feel righteous, but it makes gays and lesbians feel despised and just ensures that they will reject the Gospel. Pre-evangelism is crucial. Homosexuals need to feel loved and welcome in the church until they can develop a healthy respect for God's Word and then reexamine their lifestyles. One of the most harmful clichés ever minted by evangelicals is "Love the sinne, but hate the sin." Hate is an energy felt as rejection by its target who won't feel loved by the preacher condemning them. Instead, we need to replace hatred in all its forms and accept seekers just the way they are until the Holy Spirit has a chance to woo them to God's grace through our positive accepting attitude and love.

Simon: "Do you believe that God doesn't HATE ?
First, your question wrongly assumes that we must imitate God. God says, "Vengeance is mine. I will repay, says the Lord." But we ae forbidden to be vengeful or hateful.
Second, you apparently don't understand the meaning of the Hebrew word for "hate." It often does NOT express loathing or negative emotion, but rather preference and priorities. Thus, Jesus teaches that we can't be His disciples unless we "hate" our families.
" God is love and in Him is no darkness at all."

Simon: "Do you believe Jesus never hated anything?"
Jesus was fully human, "grew in wisdom and favor with God," had to Learn obedience through the things He suffered," and "was tested in every way just as we are." So yes, Jesus had to battle the whole range of human emotions, including hatred. \
How do you define an abomination?

Simon: "Have you read Gods word?"
Yes, and I love God's Word enough to learn Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Do you?

Having visited a Methodist church by chance yesterday, I became aware of the issues once again. they happened to be singing "Morning has Broken," again, same as last visit. I was again without a girlfriend, since I'm still without even gas money to meet a date for dinner, and to be honest, I don't like to go to liberal churches alone. Conservative churches can have issues also, like the "spirit of religion," just like the Pharisees sometimes.

I agree with much of what has been discussed here, and the views of "MadHermit." Jesus never "hated," in the negative meaning of the word in modern language. The interpretation of the word for "hate your family," just means to put God and the family of faith first, and set aside all priorities that can have the danger of becoming idols, or anything given more honor in our lives than Divine.
I've heard sermons about the story of the "Good Samaritan," and how the Samaritans were despised, and how the religious people were consumed by self-justification and self-righteousness, and how today, the despised Samaritan could be compared to those who are outcasts in different cultures, such as India, those here in America who are considered lesser like the homeless, emotionally anguished, including ALL identity- related issues, including not realizing that our true identity is found in being born-again faithfully into the New Covenant, or "identity in Christ," as Christian spiritual freedom ministries teach, minorities in race or social standing, and others.

He, like John the Baptist, did express their most severe righteous anger at the religious conservative extremists, who were consumed with hatred of both of them, both John and Jesus referring to them as a "brood of vipers," since they were so consumed by the letter of the law, that religion had become so much of an idol, and their delusional blindness so severe, that they tried to put both to death. They feared John because he had gained the respect of the people through tireless teaching from the pulpit of total poverty, putting all of our modern religion to shame. Their charge against the Lord was that He had to have the death penalty for healing people on the Sabbath. Jesus did this deliberately to shed light on their abuse of the Law. He did not come to "abolish the Law, but to fulfill it." So, He can not be labeled a rebel either. John represented the last of the Old Testament Prophets, and the Lord said that the Gospel of the New Testament was far greater.

I also agree with "MadHermit" where he says that people who are considered to be "Samaritans," whether they are of a sexually contested identity, or any of the above reasons, including single people, should not be persecuted at the door of Christian churches, or from the pulpit. The Lord and all the Apostles said that we are ALL worse than those we judge, especially the ones we judge with the most hatred, and that the best way to "SEE" is to always admit we are blind.

The Lord saved the life of one lady who was about to be given the death-penalty by stones in public, by asking the enraged mob to throw the stones only if they were without sin. Another lady who was publicly shamed by a religious Pharisee in his house, was honored by the Lord for her loving compassion and repentance. I believe the message for everyone was: "Go and sin no more." From the stone-throwers just using the law as an excuse to put someone to death publicly, or "law for law's sake," or malicious idolatry, to the two women whose lives were saved, and souls. The thief on the Cross next to the Lord was saved on the spot, without religion, baptism, or any actions, except just turning to Jesus. The rebel leader on the other side of the Lord, refused to let go of his rebellion and hatred, even in the face of death.

I agree with "MadHermit," also when he says that the reason all people should be welcome in church, is to expose all to the Gospel message and the power of the Holy Spirit and allow the Light of Christ to reach hearts without a condemning message. But, I don't agree with the Methodist progressives in thinking that everyone should be allowed free-reign in a church, who may or may not be a part of a trustworthy lifestyle of any kind, from addictions to behaviors that might not be considered healthy by those who are healthy in body, mind and spirit, and this is reflected in their lives by a confirmation of the power of God in their lives, and that may not be endorsed by the majority of the Church as being approved in salvation history.

So, the answer for the Methodist church, and my grandfather was a Methodist minister in Canada, is not to use the church to promote any one view, or to use the church to persecute others, but to agree on dialog that will lead to a church that is confirmed by the "Lord Who is coming to judge the earth." He is not coming to pacify every whim and compromise of modern society.
Truth does not evolve.
Christians can not make up our own rules and expect God's blessings.
If a Church teaches members things that do not lead to a healthy life in Christ, then they could be risking their salvation.

 

[MadHermit]

Responses on this thread reveal x delusions:
(1) that by denunciatory preaching against gays, they will fall under conviction of sin and get saved: The truth is (a) that very few churches are blessed by Spirit-anointed preaching and (b) that such preaching merely comes across as hate speech to gays, driving them away and alienating them from the Gospel. During the UMC Conference today (Monday) one lesbian college student celebrated how her witness had won campus gays to Christ, but lamented that most gays see opposition to gay marriage as hate speech that demonstrates the lack of evangelical love for gays. As Christians we are responsible not for what we intend to say, but for how what we say comes across to our audience. How many gays have been converted and delivered in your church by harsh anti-gay rhetoric. In my UMC church in Western New York, I never addressed the subject, but put the emphasis on drawing gays to church. Sometimes they flocked to my church, driving 50 miles south from Rochester. When asked why they didn't instead attend a nearby inclusive church in Rochester, they replied, "We know yours in not an inclusive church, but inclusive churches are motivated by a political correctness that feels insincere and we prefer the warm welcome we feel here from believers who are in fact conservation on gay issues!"

(2) that the seeker sensitive approach to preaching waters down the Gospel: in fact agape love is more concerned with its ultimate impace than with feeling righteous for proclaiming the truth and the blaming the hearers for rejecting it.

 

[kaylagrl]

Responses on this thread reveal x delusions:
(1) that by denunciatory preaching against gays, they will fall under conviction of sin and get saved: The truth is (a) that very few churches are blessed by Spirit-anointed preaching and (b) that such preaching merely comes across as hate speech to gays, driving them away and alienating them from the Gospel. During the UMC Conference today (Monday) one lesbian college student celebrated how her witness had won campus gays to Christ, but lamented that most gays see opposition to gay marriage as hate speech that demonstrates the lack of evangelical love for gays. As Christians we are responsible not for what we intend to say, but for how what we say comes across to our audience. How many gays have been converted and delivered in your church by harsh anti-gay rhetoric. In my UMC church in Western New York, I never addressed the subject, but put the emphasis on drawing gays to church. Sometimes they flocked to my church, driving 50 miles south from Rochester. When asked why they didn't instead attend a nearby inclusive church in Rochester, they replied, "We know yours in not an inclusive church, but inclusive churches are motivated by a political correctness that feels insincere and we prefer the warm welcome we feel here from believers who are in fact conservation on gay issues!"

(2) that the seeker sensitive approach to preaching waters down the Gospel: in fact agape love is more concerned with its ultimate impace than with feeling righteous for proclaiming the truth and the blaming the hearers for rejecting it.

Responses on this thread reveal x delusions:
(1) that by denunciatory preaching against gays, they will fall under conviction of sin and get saved: The truth is (a) that very few churches are blessed by Spirit-anointed preaching and (b) that such preaching merely comes across as hate speech to gays, driving them away and alienating them from the Gospel.

Not true. Spent over 20 yrs in evangelistic traveling ministry. Churches are mostly empty because they won't preach the truth. Yes, sinners are saved the same way they have always been, by conviction of the Holy Spirit. Just because the world turned PC doesn't mean the church should.

During the UMC Conference today (Monday) one lesbian college student celebrated how her witness had won campus gays to Christ, but lamented that most gays see opposition to gay marriage as hate speech that demonstrates the lack of evangelical love for gays.

Could you explain the underlined part? A former lesbian? Brother if being against gay marriage is not showing love for gays we have a huge problem. You cannot bend the truth to suit the sinner. It's not possible to accept gay marriage and be a Christ follower, let alone a preacher of the Gospel.

As Christians we are responsible not for what we intend to say, but for how what we say comes across to our audience. How many gays have been converted and delivered in your church by harsh anti-gay rhetoric.

No as Christians we are responsible to preach the truth of the Gospel. If you think being against gay marriage is harsh and anti-gay rhetoric there is a problem, a major one! You are called to preach the whole truth. Where in the Bible does it say preach in a way that doesn't offend the sinner. John the Baptist called out the king for his sin in public and lost his head for it. Preach the truth!! Let Holy Spirit convict.

 

[kaylagrl]

Glad to see the UMC made the right decision...


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/u...age-and-gay-clergy/ar-BBU7TlF?ocid=spartanntp