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C
**I appreciate that you are thinking this way, Brother Zero. Thank you.**
I know many people would gloss over this detail, but I feel like you have a deeper heart than that. It takes courage, especially in such a public square kind of setting like this -even if it is CC- to be taking this stand and asking me this sort of thing. That is the kind of courage that All Christians should have. (not trying to shame anyone else here, ok?) For me, it is a sign of Christian Love in you that you brought this up at all, and I feel complimented that you care about it and about me enough to say something.
I attend a Conservative denomination, and by my church's standards, both she and I are Biblically eligible to remarry. If you want to know more, I will elaborate...I don't mind sharing more, on PM. Since part of the story is not mine, I do not wish to post it in open forum.
Many churches that I know accept divorce and remarriage too lightly. Some churches preach divorce as a sin. Some preach that remarriage, except under certain circumstances, is a sin. I look carefully at all of these arguments and accept that God can forgive any sin. I'm not looking to get into a debate of the legitimacy of divorce and remarriage from the Biblical perspective, but if anyone wants to PM me their thoughts on that, Go for it.
Her son's father remarried earlier this month.
The mother of my two children closed firmly all doors to reconciliation, nailed them shut, and bricked over them. With an objectivity I did not have at the time she left, this was for the best.
Dating the second time around seems to be a whole different thing. I've observed it in the relationships of others, not just in this relationship I can call my own. Divorced people either seem to go hog wild (and against God) or are super cautious, and a lot serious about the whole thing. There may be a lesson in there somewhere.
You're right, Mr.Turbulence. Us being divorced changes Everything. Us both having kids changes it all Even More.
I'm proud of you for speaking up about that. May many gain from you having planted that flag.
T
I most certainly don't take divorce lightly, I think it should only be considered on very serious and biblical grounds. But I've seen your character across the boards and I know a little of your story, so I felt I had no reason to question where you are and what you were doing in regards to this. Besides, you seem to have a good head on your shoulders and you're prayerfully considering everything. You've taken things slowly and been responsible. I wish you the very best and pray your relationship deepens as you grow to know God more and more.
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C
I have awesome brothers and sisters here on CC. I count both Tintin and zeroturbulence in that. I know there are others, many of whom I could name, but this doesn't seem the time.
I believe that all the kindness, all the love, all the good things that people in my life bring to my life are extensions of God's love and God's kindness.
I am a blessed man, and for this I give thanks.
I believe that all the kindness, all the love, all the good things that people in my life bring to my life are extensions of God's love and God's kindness.
I am a blessed man, and for this I give thanks.
**I appreciate that you are thinking this way, Brother Zero. Thank you.**
I know many people would gloss over this detail, but I feel like you have a deeper heart than that. It takes courage, especially in such a public square kind of setting like this -even if it is CC- to be taking this stand and asking me this sort of thing. That is the kind of courage that All Christians should have. (not trying to shame anyone else here, ok?) For me, it is a sign of Christian Love in you that you brought this up at all, and I feel complimented that you care about it and about me enough to say something.
I attend a Conservative denomination, and by my church's standards, both she and I are Biblically eligible to remarry. If you want to know more, I will elaborate...I don't mind sharing more, on PM. Since part of the story is not mine, I do not wish to post it in open forum.
Many churches that I know accept divorce and remarriage too lightly. Some churches preach divorce as a sin. Some preach that remarriage, except under certain circumstances, is a sin. I look carefully at all of these arguments and accept that God can forgive any sin. I'm not looking to get into a debate of the legitimacy of divorce and remarriage from the Biblical perspective, but if anyone wants to PM me their thoughts on that, Go for it.
Her son's father remarried earlier this month.
The mother of my two children closed firmly all doors to reconciliation, nailed them shut, and bricked over them. With an objectivity I did not have at the time she left, this was for the best.
Dating the second time around seems to be a whole different thing. I've observed it in the relationships of others, not just in this relationship I can call my own. Divorced people either seem to go hog wild (and against God) or are super cautious, and a lot serious about the whole thing. There may be a lesson in there somewhere.
You're right, Mr.Turbulence. Us being divorced changes Everything. Us both having kids changes it all Even More.
I'm proud of you for speaking up about that. May many gain from you having planted that flag.
I know many people would gloss over this detail, but I feel like you have a deeper heart than that. It takes courage, especially in such a public square kind of setting like this -even if it is CC- to be taking this stand and asking me this sort of thing. That is the kind of courage that All Christians should have. (not trying to shame anyone else here, ok?) For me, it is a sign of Christian Love in you that you brought this up at all, and I feel complimented that you care about it and about me enough to say something.
I attend a Conservative denomination, and by my church's standards, both she and I are Biblically eligible to remarry. If you want to know more, I will elaborate...I don't mind sharing more, on PM. Since part of the story is not mine, I do not wish to post it in open forum.
Many churches that I know accept divorce and remarriage too lightly. Some churches preach divorce as a sin. Some preach that remarriage, except under certain circumstances, is a sin. I look carefully at all of these arguments and accept that God can forgive any sin. I'm not looking to get into a debate of the legitimacy of divorce and remarriage from the Biblical perspective, but if anyone wants to PM me their thoughts on that, Go for it.
Her son's father remarried earlier this month.
The mother of my two children closed firmly all doors to reconciliation, nailed them shut, and bricked over them. With an objectivity I did not have at the time she left, this was for the best.
Dating the second time around seems to be a whole different thing. I've observed it in the relationships of others, not just in this relationship I can call my own. Divorced people either seem to go hog wild (and against God) or are super cautious, and a lot serious about the whole thing. There may be a lesson in there somewhere.
You're right, Mr.Turbulence. Us being divorced changes Everything. Us both having kids changes it all Even More.
I'm proud of you for speaking up about that. May many gain from you having planted that flag.
C
Wow thank you, Charcoal. I was really just thinking aloud and didn't actually expect you to provide answers to my questions, but now that you have, it seems to me that this new relationship of yours has already been blessed by God.
Our Date Day went well.
The folk dance was canceled, but we found a nice spot for desert, and had significantly more opportunity for conversation.
And yes, I did kiss her on the lips tonight.
C
So.... let's see, yesterday I picked her up at her house... Her father (age 81 - she's adopted) was puttering in the garage when I arrived. I scooped the newspaper from the curb, added to it a post-it note that I had prepared and handed it to him when I shook his hand. I pointed out the post-it (which he was already eyeing) and let him know that it was my mobile phone number in case he needed to get in touch of us for any reason. I knew good and well that she would have her phone, but this seemed like a respectful move. He has the attitude that she is an adult and can make her own choices. I have the attitude that this is his one and only child, and that I should treat him with the same respect that I hope I receive from any man who dates my daughter. He sometimes seems Very amused by the respect I give him. He told me once to call him by his first name, but I just don't find it in me to do that. As an ex-marine, he seems more comfortable with my calling him Sir than Mr. (his last name). I find that if I treat him like a friend, but speak to him like my superior, that he is willing to accept it...and maybe I seem a little less like Eddie Haskell. ( Eddie Haskell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia In case you don't know.)
I will leave out the detail that conversation flowed throughout the day, never once resulting in anything that would pass as awkward silence. There were, periodic and appropriate silences, but they were shared intimate silences without any hint of awkwardness, discomfort, or ill intent. Also, she is still clearly unused to such, but very nearly each time, she allowed me to open her car door for entrance and egress of the car, or the places we visited.
We stopped at the local favorite for specialty sodas and slushes for something to sip on the drive. Then we PRAYED together. (THIS IS SO WORTH DOING, GENTS! If she Likes you being the spiritual leader of the relationship, that's like 35 "keeper" points...if she has ANY other response, then change that date plan to something a whole lot cheaper, treat her nice, and don't worry about a second date! Trust me here, my ex-wife bristled at my attempts to be the spiritual leader of our home and that ended famously bad.)
We drove to (a different town, about 90-120 minutes away). We stopped first at a big box grocery store, where I insisted on paying for the flowers she had picked out (stay with me...) and then we went to visit the graves of her aunt and her grandparents. She had asked if we could do this if we had the time... I explained that it means something to her, therefore it is a priority to me, and made it the First Thing. I cleaned around the headstones, held an arm around her shoulders (it was chilly despite the sunny day), and listened intently as she told me more stories about these deceased relatives. (Family stories had been part of the drive.) Once she was ready, we left there and went to an upscale foodie-type Kosher restaurant near the more upwardly mobile of the Jewish synagogues in town. It was, by this time, one o'clock and we were both ready for a bite. She ordered light fare, I eat like a boy. Hers was baked figs stuffed with homemade chorizo. I had the chef's pick of the day - a chile verde chicken with vegetable tamale and an avocado salad. She enjoyed bites of mine, and we savored our food discerning the recipes. (we both are good cooks.) It was decidedly an good meal, but the company was better still.
We then went to a very well respected museum, and saw many great works, including some so well known that I will not name them (because I like anonymity on the interweb). She pointed out the various saints in many of the early Catholic and Christian art pieces, and we discussed the dichotomous way in which they were displayed intermingled with and in counter point to non-religious works. (All the tribal African art & Egyptian pieces were in separate galleries.) Walking around the museum, we explored together, discussing the works, discovering more about one another, and about one another's tastes. Tales were retold of other museums, of my extensive travels as a child and as a youth. We held hands intermittently, as a natural expression of care and affection for one another, but comfortably and casually letting go to explore different works of art. Every thing felt so downright comfortable, that I did not hesitate occasionally placing my hand or hands on her shoulders, on her upper arm, or - once- on her back between her shoulder blades. These I did when approaching to speak with her about this work or that. Moving through the museum with felt exactly like a well choreographed dance of beauty, performed with unheard music. There was, however, much music in my heart.
When the museum did close, we were again ready to eat. We made our way to what would most accurately be described as The Hipster District, where we walked a block and a half from the car to the Irish pub that had come so highly recommended. We were initially told that it would be an hour wait, but then they offered us immediate seating at a tiny pub-table near the bar that was just vacated. However, a moment after the busboy retreated, a trio that had been boisterously taking up more than their fair share of the waiting area. We were given a sincere apology, and an immediate seat in the expansion portion of the restaurant. We'd not yet warmed our chairs when the hostess returned shortly, though, again apologizing. Our table for two had been left open to join with a larger table for a larger party with reservations (At a pub?), but we were ushered to a delightfully cozy and intimate table in the superior portion of the restaurant. I later observed the trio still at the pub table we would have had, and surmised that we had received their table. We ordered deliciously traditional Irish food (I had a boxty.) and savored each moment as much as the meal.
After a brisk walk down to the car, we made our way downtown. I changed from my museum shoes to my dancing shoes, and then we crossed the street and discovered that the folk-dance was canceled for the night.
Un-thwarted, we took a walk, then returned to the restaurant from lunch ('twas good) for desert. She also had an herbal tea. It was a loose tea in a french press that smelled of jasmine & bergamot, and some other unidentified scents. It truly smelled so good that she said she would wear it as a perfume if given the chance. I joked that she could spill whatever is left upon herself when it came time to leave. She did not elect to do so, but did finish a large French press of the coyly scented herbal infusion.
We walked back to the car, where we kissed, not for the first time that day, but for the first time ever on one another's lips. It was a tender moment, and I kept it as such when I felt that it was appropriate to put the breaks on things and get into the car. This exercise of self restraint was delightfully comfortable for me and so very well received that I have no doubts that she is both appreciative of my conservative boundaries, and attracted to them. The respect that I afford her is from another generation, and I am ever so please to do so. I feel that it is a great thing to show her this respect, for it is also respectful to God and to myself.
We made our way most of the way home, stopping to watch the changing lights on a local cultural icon. We could have "made out" in the car, but instead talked first about religion, about prayer, about our relationship with God and how He has answered different prayers in our life. We then talked more about our hopes and dreams, about our families and our children, and about all manner of wholesome things. I spoke of the one darker thing from my past that she did not yet know about and that I felt she should know. (We have a policy of past being past, and agreement that if it is something that we think the other Needs to know about, that we will tell it in time, but we do not need to dig inside ourselves - or one another- to tell our dirty laundry...because Jesus washed it all clean.) The timing was right, and I felt so prompted, so I told her of the prayer mentioned in the second paragraph of my quoted text in post # 36. We talked more and more about prayer. Her eyes were alight as she listened to me talk about God and my relationship with Him and the ways that I pray, what I pray for and the responses I see in my life from that. At some point in all of this, she rested her head upon my shoulder, and I on hers. Eventually, we did share another brief kiss, before driving the rest of the way into town.
Borrowing a page from JesusLives's playbook, we stopped at a 24-hour big box store for a potty break and a stroll. It was, by this time after one am. We drove through a neighborhood we both like, discussing the architecture of the older homes. We talked more of our children, of our selves, and of the future.
I dropped her at home and walked her to the door. Another kiss, and we called it a night.
I slept well, but not without thanking God first. All told, I had prayed with her Four times yesterday. All told, it was a wonderful day.
She is going to her home church this morning, and I mine. She is having lunch with a small group of friends from church before they all go to the theatre. She had given, by her boss's boss, a pair of box seats for a touring musical that is geared to the young and young at heart. She is, of course, taking her son, and her church friends happen to have (lesser) seats as well. The performance starts about two. If they are out of there in time, she plans to bring her son with her to church with me tonight at five. We're starting a new series and it may prove to be just what the Great Physician ordered.
Her mother and mine are both cautious about this relationship, but excited all the same. Our fathers are each pleased to see it. Our friends are impressed by it. Things are going well, and we are committed to not rushing it into anything more permanent. Also, she is impressed with my ability to drive stick shift with just my left hand as she holds my right with both of hers.
Lord God,
Keep us on your path and lead us to where you would have us. Help us to walk Your way, Father, and not run our own. Bless all children, God, and help them to grow to follow you in ways that surpass the generations before them. Help me to do my part as best I can in showing them an example of faith in you. May you be honored in all that I do.
Ahmen.
C
Shout out to BugeyeSTi with a little special advice... or for anyone else who this may apply to.
If you drive something with stiff suspension (ie, sport tuned, etc) let the PSI on the tires down by about 3lbs for the first date. You can puff them back up later (while convincing your car to not be jealous of the "other lady") and it will give you a softer, ride. Many people will confuse the value of the stiffly engineered suspension for a broken down, slapped together old ricer.
If you drive something with stiff suspension (ie, sport tuned, etc) let the PSI on the tires down by about 3lbs for the first date. You can puff them back up later (while convincing your car to not be jealous of the "other lady") and it will give you a softer, ride. Many people will confuse the value of the stiffly engineered suspension for a broken down, slapped together old ricer.
C
This is all very high praise, considering the source. Thank you, TinTin. I am humbled by your words.
And yes, I think she may be a keeper.
I want to make at least one full rotation around the sun with her before taking any such action, but I can find nothing to give me pause. I'm just going to keep taking it slow and let God's plans for us unfold.
And yes, I think she may be a keeper.
I want to make at least one full rotation around the sun with her before taking any such action, but I can find nothing to give me pause. I'm just going to keep taking it slow and let God's plans for us unfold.
C
Last night She came to church with me again. <happy dance>
The opportunity to suggest this came up a few days after I learned her church does not do a Sunday Evening Service. (We get different sermons Morning vs. Evening, so it really is a whole new thing to come back for, not a re-hashing of what someone working the night shift might have missed. Does your church do that?....separate thread, coming soon.) My sweetie said something about wishing we could spend more time together, and I had a natural opening to suggest she come to church with me Sunday evenings. I expected some reluctance, but she was Excited that I was inviting her to church. Since that suggestion, she's not missed a Sunday night with me.
Last night, she came to church with me and brought her son. I had engaged him talking with another boy who is about his age afterwards and a small fraction of my 60 or so member strong Bible class came over to meet my Sweetheart. I exploded in smiles when I heard her tell someone that my church was now her regular Sunday night plans. ........now to work on Sunday mornings. <Big Grin>
After church, we went to (a chain of restaurants that specializes in giant burritos), which I new to be her son's favorite. He sat across the table from His mother and I, and got to know me a little more. It was great to be able to give him this opportunity of just the three of us to come to be more accustomed to me. I gave him carte blanc to ask me anything, now or in the future. He had some questions, but mostly didn't know what to ask. Most of his questions started with, So if you two do end up getting married..." and the answers mostly began with his mother blushing, and saying something along the lines of "Slowdown there, Turbo," "Cool it, kid you're Way ahead of yourself," or ""For the billionth time, it's early to even be thinking like this."
He seemed to like the idea. A lot. He might also like making his mom blush.
I didn't mind much. She's *Mighty* *Cute* when she blushes.
We only had an hour for dinner, but I am sure that in time there will be more questions and more time to spend with one another. I ran away at seven to go pick up my kids. Next Sunday night, I figure we'll do the opposite - I'll have my kids and her son will be returning from visiting his dad.
The opportunity to suggest this came up a few days after I learned her church does not do a Sunday Evening Service. (We get different sermons Morning vs. Evening, so it really is a whole new thing to come back for, not a re-hashing of what someone working the night shift might have missed. Does your church do that?....separate thread, coming soon.) My sweetie said something about wishing we could spend more time together, and I had a natural opening to suggest she come to church with me Sunday evenings. I expected some reluctance, but she was Excited that I was inviting her to church. Since that suggestion, she's not missed a Sunday night with me.
Last night, she came to church with me and brought her son. I had engaged him talking with another boy who is about his age afterwards and a small fraction of my 60 or so member strong Bible class came over to meet my Sweetheart. I exploded in smiles when I heard her tell someone that my church was now her regular Sunday night plans. ........now to work on Sunday mornings. <Big Grin>
After church, we went to (a chain of restaurants that specializes in giant burritos), which I new to be her son's favorite. He sat across the table from His mother and I, and got to know me a little more. It was great to be able to give him this opportunity of just the three of us to come to be more accustomed to me. I gave him carte blanc to ask me anything, now or in the future. He had some questions, but mostly didn't know what to ask. Most of his questions started with, So if you two do end up getting married..." and the answers mostly began with his mother blushing, and saying something along the lines of "Slowdown there, Turbo," "Cool it, kid you're Way ahead of yourself," or ""For the billionth time, it's early to even be thinking like this."
He seemed to like the idea. A lot. He might also like making his mom blush.
I didn't mind much. She's *Mighty* *Cute* when she blushes.
We only had an hour for dinner, but I am sure that in time there will be more questions and more time to spend with one another. I ran away at seven to go pick up my kids. Next Sunday night, I figure we'll do the opposite - I'll have my kids and her son will be returning from visiting his dad.
C
We've talked about our kids (my 2 & her 1) with regards to the relationship. We've pledged that whatever happens between us, that we will be mature enough about it that the kids can stay friends. We've decreed that there is an acceptable level of PDA (hold hands, hugs, maybe in time a quick peck) that is OK for that audience as well. We KNOW that with our kids teetering on the edge of Middle School (the oldest is 11 - 5th grade, and has started puberty) that it is just a matter of time until the kids are going to be bombarded with dating type information, seeing their friends have "dates" and possibly wanting to date, too. We feel that we have The Prime Opportunity right now to SHOW them what dating should be like. If we tried to keep it hidden from them, then what would they learn? Instead we want to model the behavior to them that we hope they choose when they are dating. The zenith in this (summit, peak, not consumer grade electronics) is that we want to display to the kids the importance of putting God first in the relationship.
I think she is a Very Wise Woman.
I think she is a Very Wise Woman.
You definitely should visit her church. You need to know what sort of doctrine she holds to, the overall feel of the church, what her church teaches, what style of service or preaching she enjoys, how involved she is, or how she relates to the others who go there. Her willingness to attend your church is admirable, but it doesn't tell you much about what she values in a church. If that makes sense. Visiting her church will tell you a lot about her, imo.
C
My initial thought is , "well...Yes and no..."
She grew up with a Presby church, but after a particular incident she stopped going to church all together. Honestly, I'm surprised that she ever went back to ANY church afterwards. She didn't start going to church again until after she was divorced, and fell into a Methodist church because they were the first she encountered who didn't condemn her for her divorce. I'm not an expert on either, but in conversation about the differences I know of, she completely disagreed with them over the things that I held to be problematic. I am generally a "focus on the salvation issues" kind of guy, and let the rest sort itself out under the heading of "people's opinions"
(And NO, I will not engage anyone in the "my denomination can beat up your denomination" fight on here.)
She went to my church's private school for two years, so she knows pretty well what she is walking in to.
She sings in the choir at her church, so she falls right into place with us (and one of her friends from her high school choir days is in my Bible class...though we're all now in our 30's).
Grace, help me understand more, please.
She grew up with a Presby church, but after a particular incident she stopped going to church all together. Honestly, I'm surprised that she ever went back to ANY church afterwards. She didn't start going to church again until after she was divorced, and fell into a Methodist church because they were the first she encountered who didn't condemn her for her divorce. I'm not an expert on either, but in conversation about the differences I know of, she completely disagreed with them over the things that I held to be problematic. I am generally a "focus on the salvation issues" kind of guy, and let the rest sort itself out under the heading of "people's opinions"
(And NO, I will not engage anyone in the "my denomination can beat up your denomination" fight on here.)
She went to my church's private school for two years, so she knows pretty well what she is walking in to.
She sings in the choir at her church, so she falls right into place with us (and one of her friends from her high school choir days is in my Bible class...though we're all now in our 30's).
Grace, help me understand more, please.
My ex left his denomination for mine, because he was quite neutral on doctrinal matters, and I was more involved and held "pickier" views on some issues. He did end up getting very involved in the church we chose, and seemed to fit in well. Fast forward a decade. After our marriage ended, he told me that he'd never felt at home in that church. He wasn't an "intellectual" and he felt that the church was too theologically minded for him. In MY eyes, he was well loved, supported, he was a leader, deacon, teacher, ministry starter. He had close friends there who cared about him. But in his eyes, he felt inadequate.
Of course, he never mentioned any of that to me in all the years we were married. But it's made me think about people who appear to be easy-going, or willing to compromise a lot on things like this. Maybe they really truly don't mind. Or are even excited to embrace a new church. (Sounds like that's the case with your sweetheart.) Or maybe they feel like they SHOULD be the one to give up their church. Who knows... it may not matter at all. It just seems like visiting the church that she chose for herself and is attending would give a good idea of what she values in a church, independent of you. It may give you an opportunity to consider the differences and similarities between the two churches, and decide whether any of them could be an issue for either of you.
(If that doesn't make sense, please disregard!)
Of course, he never mentioned any of that to me in all the years we were married. But it's made me think about people who appear to be easy-going, or willing to compromise a lot on things like this. Maybe they really truly don't mind. Or are even excited to embrace a new church. (Sounds like that's the case with your sweetheart.) Or maybe they feel like they SHOULD be the one to give up their church. Who knows... it may not matter at all. It just seems like visiting the church that she chose for herself and is attending would give a good idea of what she values in a church, independent of you.
It may give you an opportunity to consider the differences and similarities between the two churches, and decide whether any of them could be an issue for either of you. (If that doesn't make sense, please disregard!)
I am sorry for the delay in replying to some of your posts, Brother. I am glad that the two of you are sincere about following the ways of God and about not transgressing the boundaries. I hope and pray that this is a relationship is a blessing, for both of you and for your families.
I think you should visit her church. You could also network with a few of the people she looks up to. It would give you a good picture of her spiritual background. Plus, as Grace-like-rain said, it may show you some differences between both your beliefs so that you guys can talk it out.
Another advice I have for you is that you must be wary of overlooking any red flags that pop up along the way. Sometimes (and I have been guilty of this so many times), we end up speeding along the highway when things seem to fall into place. And we miss the road signs asking us to slow down and turn back. And in the end we are hurt and upset when all our plans crumble. Please pray asking God to work things out the way He intends to do. It may seem as though I am not encouraging you or feeling excited for you but I just want to make sure that this is what God intended for you. And I don't want to see you hurt or shattered in the end.
I will keep praying for you Brother. I hope that God leads you both and that you don't go beyond what He has intended for, in this relationship. I am mighty thrilled for you and I hope this lasts for a lifetime.