Sinful lust or normally functioning hormones?

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cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
3,927
1,978
113
#61
I'm still hoping somebody will bring scripture about this topic. Not verses about "lust is bad and we should avoid it," but verses about "the difference between lust and normal sexual attraction" or "how sexual attraction is supposed to work in a proper christian marriage."

I wonder if we should disallow that one small book of the Bible that is never mentioned from the pulpit... That would be too easy.
Careful, as one of the comments I read about that book from a non-Christian perspective was that it never explicitly states that the two characters are married, apparently we Christians just assume that.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
12,276
4,419
113
#62
I dont think the Bible is fuzzy about sexual immorality keeping people out of heaven.
so whatever teaching christians are getting, which may be confusing them, they may not be getting it from the Bible.

There are lots of biblical sects that twist the Bibles words and that how you end up with elders who molest their young etc. Pastors who watch porn. married couples that have affairs. Young people who have no clue how to control themselves. Then it all gets 'covered over' to pretend it doesnt exist.

?!
 

MegMarch

Well-known member
Nov 11, 2019
432
413
63
#63
I didn't read the entire thread, but here are my thoughts on the topic in general-

The Bible mainly uses the term sexual immorality to give us a guideline of what is sinful in the area of sexuality. We often interpret sexual immorality to mean lust. But lust, in its simplest definition, means a strong sexual desire.

It is not wrong to have a strong sexual desire as a single or married person. (It is also not wrong to have zero sexual desire for those who fall into that category.) What becomes sinful is when that sexual desire is perverted.

Here are a couple hypotheticals:

Single person has a strong sexual desire, sees an attractive person, and has a thought of sexual desire for that person. They try to dismiss the thought/desire and take the thought captive to Christ. They might have to do this several times to overcome the temptation=not sinful.

Single person has a strong sexual desire and views porn, sleeps with someone they aren't married to, or acts on the desire in some way=sinful

Married person has a strong sexual desire for their spouse. They act on that and have sex with them while only thinking about their spouse and do not defile their sexual union=not sinful

Married person has a strong sexual desire for someone other than their spouse. They think about that other person while fulfilling that desire or even go so far as to have sex with that other person=sinful

The Bible addresses every type of sexual perversion/immorality: bestiality, incest, fornication, adultery. The Bible also addresses the confines for sexuality that is pure which is essentially a sexual relationship between a married person and their spouse in thought and action. Sexual desire is not wrong in and of itself. It is how you channel that sexual desire.

Now, if one is asking if it is ok for a married man to treat his wife like a porn actress, or vice versa, that would lead me to ask the person if they feel they are hurting the person to fulfill their sexual desire. Is the sexual interaction between them pure and loving? But ultimately the answer to the question lies in the premise. If you are deriving healthy sexuality from porn, then you are starting in the wrong place.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
17,996
4,785
113
#64
Careful, as one of the comments I read about that book from a non-Christian perspective was that it never explicitly states that the two characters are married, apparently we Christians just assume that.
With all the wives and concubines he had... how could he have TIME to have an affair too?
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
3,927
1,978
113
#65
With all the wives and concubines he had... how could he have TIME to have an affair too?
Leads to the question, which I haven't formulated an answer for, of how to you appropriately implement Christian sexual rules in a polygamist culture or one that has a culture of supported mistresses? Not so much for the future generations because I think you'd just tell them limit yourselves to one wife and that's it. But if a man converts to Christianity and has 3 wives how does he as a Chrsitian now behave towards his multiple wives because I don't think it's very godly or a good testimony to make that an excuse to divorce and abandon 2 out of 3 wives. Similarly in a culture where there's a social understanding that a married man takes a mistress and provides her financial support (and I imagine there still are cultures where this is done in a way that according to that culture isn't considered improper or cheating) what becomes of the mistress if her man becomes a Christian?
 

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
Sep 17, 2018
2,769
2,275
113
#66
Actually, your response is precisely what I'd expect from someone who isn't a Christian.
And that is the kind of response I'd expect from a self righteous religious nut.

PS thats the same answer I'd have given as a Christian. And as a Christian that had struggles I was typically too ashamed and afraid to speak up about them because of people like you.

Have you ever walked through hell
And there was no one you could tell
To help you through it all
When all else seemed to fail?
Why can’t we be honest
About our struggles and our pains
The skeletons we dance with
Our secrets buried in their graves?

We all fight against the grain
All of us circling the drain
Villainous, voodooed, star-crossed fools
All of us equal in our pain
We count our scars
In any weather
We are brothers, we are sisters
Now let’s sing together

Sinner’s are the new holy
Before the throne I stand
Righteous by the Blood only
And that means that you don’t
Got to live phony
Pretending that your fine
Smiling while you die slowly
At the same time a righteous and a sinful man
That’s what I am
While I’m living this life span
I’m defeated and that was my last stand
No matter, man, i’ll grab my songbook
And I’ll sing it with the whole fam
And we stand side by side
Smiles on our faces with our broken lives
How would that look?
Everyone singing from the same Sinner’s Songbook?
And we’ll stand hand in hand
Grateful for the mercy that we can’t understand
But loving the freedom
That we get from the same Sinner’s Songbook!
-The Insyderz-
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
17,996
4,785
113
#67
They missed the point, but you gotta admit they illustrated it beautifully! :cool::LOL:
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,008
1,501
113
#69
In brief the question was, what's the difference between lust and just normal inbuilt sexual desire that's part of being human (and biblically we suppose was part of being human when the command be fruitful and multiply was given before the fall )? Behind the question is a lifetime as a single in church and responses to a recent thread that seemed to equate lust with sexual desire and treat it all as sinful and leave people feeling guilty and sinful for feelings they may have little control over experiencing (such as the day I was at the beach with a couple guy friends, a woman in a small bikini walks by and the guy just out loud prays forgive me Lord (is he really doing something wrong by having an involuntary reaction to someone that walked by? then again, me being a girl, how voluntary is a guy's hormonal reaction to a pretty girl and when does the will start to come in?)) and it may not even be in God's plan to eradicate.
First off thanks for the reply....

It's really pretty plain and simple, in my opinion. It's not wrong to be attracted to someone, but like I was trying to address in my previous posts (definitely not condemning anyone and even used myself as an example)...

as soon as attraction turns into sexual thoughts then it is time to deal with it. If you don't deal with it swiftly then it will become sin in one way or another. (still not condemning)

Scripture teaches us how to deal with it. Once again this is not condemning anyone. The only way to get victory over any sin is to walk in the Spirit. Jesus overcame all sin. We are made overcomers through him.

We have to renew our minds through him. As soon as a sexual thought enters the mind, it is time to rebuke it and turn from it and get our minds upon God and his ways and walk in Jesus Christ. Now this is the only way to overcome it. (not condemning anyone...only trying to help people understand how to overcome).

Yes, God said be fruitful and multiply....That is for marriage only and scripture also deals with that....Marriage is holy and the bed is undefiled. So no problems with sex in a marriage. However, we don't need to (should not) practice for it in our imaginations. As long as you seek the Lord and study his scriptures then we know how marriage is supposed to be and what is acceptable and what is not.

Everything we need is in the scripture. If we try to cut scripture out then we will definitely fail.

Let the word of God be true and every man a liar....

Other than that I'm not sure what to say....

It's plain, it's simple, it's the truth, and by using and following the word of God we can become overcomers.

When scripture says mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit....That is exactly what it means.

Sexual desires while single is nothing but a deed of the body and must be mortified through the Spirit. (Still not condemning anyone) Like I said before being attracted to someone is not a sin, but as soon as we start having sexual desires or sexual thoughts, then that is when it will become a sin if not dealt with.

It might be a struggle and we might have to keep taking it to God and continue to retrain our minds in his holy ways....

This ain't no game.... it is spiritual warfare. You can fight it or not. It's up to each of us to make up our own minds.

But if anyone chooses to fight then they had better pick up the sword of the Spirit and put on the whole armor of God.

That is our defense. If we cut it out or think it is somehow too difficult or condemning, then we are sure to fall.
 

1ofthem

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
3,008
1,501
113
#70
They missed the point, but you gotta admit they illustrated it beautifully! :cool::LOL:
How about you explain it to us then...O wise one?

If possible, I'd like to hear some scripture about it....

It's a pretty serious topic (compared to stuff like how to lose a date in 10 seconds) So I'm not really looking for any of the usual nonsense, at the moment...Some scripture would be good....Just saying
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
17,996
4,785
113
#71
How about you explain it to us then...O wise one?

If possible, I'd like to hear some scripture about it....

It's a pretty serious topic (compared to stuff like how to lose a date in 10 seconds) So I'm not really looking for any of the usual nonsense, at the moment...Some scripture would be good....Just saying
Don't look at me man! I already said I'm hoping somebody else will bring that. :whistle:
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
12,276
4,419
113
#72
concubines have a long history in various cultures, even Jacob the founding patriarch of Israel had 4 wives.
abraham also had quite a number, he had Hagar, and Keturah as well as Sarah.

when the Bible says if you want an office of a bishop you must be the husband of one wife, well its because the ideal is to just have ONE family as it is much much simpler than having 2 or 3.

many families are not that simple, sadly, in fact the majority would have a lot of half and step siblings, plus adopted and foster children. It becomes unnecessarily complicated because of land and titles and property who is heir to what. A lot of people have actually done away with the idea of inheritance. You on your own! You get nothing for being a son or daughter. Basically its abandoning the biological family.

But Jesus came up with a solution to that one. You dont get to be a christian by having sex thats for sure lol
 

seoulsearch

OutWrite Trouble
May 23, 2009
13,253
3,434
113
#73
And that is the kind of response I'd expect from a self righteous religious nut.

PS thats the same answer I'd have given as a Christian. And as a Christian that had struggles I was typically too ashamed and afraid to speak up about them because of people like you.

Have you ever walked through hell
And there was no one you could tell
To help you through it all
When all else seemed to fail?
Why can’t we be honest
About our struggles and our pains
The skeletons we dance with
Our secrets buried in their graves?

We all fight against the grain
All of us circling the drain
Villainous, voodooed, star-crossed fools
All of us equal in our pain
We count our scars
In any weather
We are brothers, we are sisters
Now let’s sing together

Sinner’s are the new holy
Before the throne I stand
Righteous by the Blood only
And that means that you don’t
Got to live phony
Pretending that your fine
Smiling while you die slowly
At the same time a righteous and a sinful man
That’s what I am
While I’m living this life span
I’m defeated and that was my last stand
No matter, man, i’ll grab my songbook
And I’ll sing it with the whole fam
And we stand side by side
Smiles on our faces with our broken lives
How would that look?
Everyone singing from the same Sinner’s Songbook?
And we’ll stand hand in hand
Grateful for the mercy that we can’t understand
But loving the freedom
That we get from the same Sinner’s Songbook!
-The Insyderz-
Thank you for saying perfectly what I was thinking but not able to 'pen out.'
@cinder, I'm sorry for derailing your thread, but I'm going to go off on a little sidetrack here.

@Mezame83 -- Thank you for the kind words. One of the reasons I wrote what I did is because Sub's post is something I could have written myself -- not about anyone here, but about my experiences in the church.

@Subhumanoidal -- I know we don't always see eye-to-eye (but believe me, I have fierce arguments even with the people I'm closest to here, so I know I'm not the easiest to get along with), but I appreciate your honesty about what you have observed in life, and within the church.

There are some times when I mention that I have been on CC since 2009 -- and the reason I bring this up is NOT because a long time gives anyone more clout or value -- not at all.

But what it DOES do is give a person more time to observe the site and its members. I have seen many people here come and go, or go and come back, and a few here, have been here a very long time, and you get to know a little bit about them through their posts.

Some people here who have "unsure" or "not a Christian" in their profile actually have very strong roots in Christianity, but the church and Christian circles have let them down and hurt them time and time again when they needed loving Godly representation the most, and they are trying to work through their pain like anyone else.

I have seen a few long time members here who once publicly identified as being Christian change their status to something else, simply because they were trying to cope, and we all have our own ways of coping.

I have had times myself when I wanted to change my own spiritual status in my profile, but I haven't because I know people would automatically assume I'm a rebellious heathen who knows nothing about the Lord -- as my Bible is open to Jeremiah because I'm on the 7th time of reading the Bible all the way through, and I have been a very rooted part of Christian schools and the church for my entire life.

Again, this does NOT somehow make me a "better" Christian or even a "real" Christian, and some probably judge me to be UN-Christian as well. But what I have found is that is that if you're real and say you're struggling and wrestling and crying out to God, and maybe out of pain you go silent on Him for a while, or choose to change your spiritual label -- it seems like Christians will either make it their mission to save your ignorant, helpless self as aggressively as possible, or else shun you for being on par with the antichrist.

I'm always a little sad and bewildered as to why a third option isn't recognized, because it's the one I seem to run into the most frequently -- people who were VERY strong believers and active parts of the body of believers, but were condemned, shunned, and excommunicated when they tried to talk about and seek help for their actual problems.

I often consider myself to be very much a part of this last category, and I have a deep sympathy for others who are going through it as well.

I hope this won't be offensive but, don't give up, Sub.

Keep on searching, and God bless you. :)
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
3,927
1,978
113
#74
Someone said that the church was the only army that shot its own wounded :(
 

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
Sep 17, 2018
2,769
2,275
113
#75
@cinder, I'm sorry for derailing your thread, but I'm going to go off on a little sidetrack here.

@Mezame83 -- Thank you for the kind words. One of the reasons I wrote what I did is because Sub's post is something I could have written myself -- not about anyone here, but about my experiences in the church.

@Subhumanoidal -- I know we don't always see eye-to-eye (but believe me, I have fierce arguments even with the people I'm closest to here, so I know I'm not the easiest to get along with), but I appreciate your honesty about what you have observed in life, and within the church.

There are some times when I mention that I have been on CC since 2009 -- and the reason I bring this up is NOT because a long time gives anyone more clout or value -- not at all.

But what it DOES do is give a person more time to observe the site and its members. I have seen many people here come and go, or go and come back, and a few here, have been here a very long time, and you get to know a little bit about them through their posts.

Some people here who have "unsure" or "not a Christian" in their profile actually have very strong roots in Christianity, but the church and Christian circles have let them down and hurt them time and time again when they needed loving Godly representation the most, and they are trying to work through their pain like anyone else.

I have seen a few long time members here who once publicly identified as being Christian change their status to something else, simply because they were trying to cope, and we all have our own ways of coping.

I have had times myself when I wanted to change my own spiritual status in my profile, but I haven't because I know people would automatically assume I'm a rebellious heathen who knows nothing about the Lord -- as my Bible is open to Jeremiah because I'm on the 7th time of reading the Bible all the way through, and I have been a very rooted part of Christian schools and the church for my entire life.

Again, this does NOT somehow make me a "better" Christian or even a "real" Christian, and some probably judge me to be UN-Christian as well. But what I have found is that is that if you're real and say you're struggling and wrestling and crying out to God, and maybe out of pain you go silent on Him for a while, or choose to change your spiritual label -- it seems like Christians will either make it their mission to save your ignorant, helpless self as aggressively as possible, or else shun you for being on par with the antichrist.

I'm always a little sad and bewildered as to why a third option isn't recognized, because it's the one I seem to run into the most frequently -- people who were VERY strong believers and active parts of the body of believers, but were condemned, shunned, and excommunicated when they tried to talk about and seek help for their actual problems.

I often consider myself to be very much a part of this last category, and I have a deep sympathy for others who are going through it as well.

I hope this won't be offensive but, don't give up, Sub.

Keep on searching, and God bless you. :)
Nothing offensive in your post. In fact it's nice to hear I'm not the only one.
One thing I learned from all this that I thought I saw before, but wasn't sure, is non-Christians are viewed as enemies by many on this site. And being seen as an enemy, attack is their first reaction.
The Gospel is no longer viewed as being about people getting saved, but about being right and creating paranoia about anyone not in line with you. And the further they are from your view, the worse of a person they're viewed as. The Gospel as a weapon against man, not Satan.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
3,927
1,978
113
#76
Nothing offensive in your post. In fact it's nice to hear I'm not the only one.
One thing I learned from all this that I thought I saw before, but wasn't sure, is non-Christians are viewed as enemies by many on this site. And being seen as an enemy, attack is their first reaction.
The Gospel is no longer viewed as being about people getting saved, but about being right and creating paranoia about anyone not in line with you. And the further they are from your view, the worse of a person they're viewed as. The Gospel as a weapon against man, not Satan.
Reminds me of looking back on growing up in church, and the churches I grew up in (which seemed for the most part reasonably normal and healthy) left me with the impression that the number one goal of all non-Christians is to get a Christian to compromise their faith. And as I've grown and actually had to interact with non-Christian people more I've realized that's ludicrous and as long as you live up to a pretty basic and low moral standard (something on the level of don't go around murdering or harming innocent people for the fun of it and don't betray your friends) and aren't hypocritically judging others, most people don't care.
 

cinder

Senior Member
Mar 26, 2014
3,927
1,978
113
#77
Nothing offensive in your post. In fact it's nice to hear I'm not the only one.
One thing I learned from all this that I thought I saw before, but wasn't sure, is non-Christians are viewed as enemies by many on this site. And being seen as an enemy, attack is their first reaction.
The Gospel is no longer viewed as being about people getting saved, but about being right and creating paranoia about anyone not in line with you. And the further they are from your view, the worse of a person they're viewed as. The Gospel as a weapon against man, not Satan.
I might revise that to non-Christians are viewed (in most christian forums / discussions I've been around) as having one basic overarching problem and need and that's to become Christians. This is the only thing Christians want to talk to them about because it will magically and dramatically improve all their problems because then they'll know the right answers and what they should do. And if they (or any other Chrsitian) don't find that sufficient then they must be doing the Christian thing wrong or not really serious about it.
 

Subhumanoidal

Well-known member
Sep 17, 2018
2,769
2,275
113
#78
Reminds me of looking back on growing up in church, and the churches I grew up in (which seemed for the most part reasonably normal and healthy) left me with the impression that the number one goal of all non-Christians is to get a Christian to compromise their faith. And as I've grown and actually had to interact with non-Christian people more I've realized that's ludicrous and as long as you live up to a pretty basic and low moral standard (something on the level of don't go around murdering or harming innocent people for the fun of it and don't betray your friends) and aren't hypocritically judging others, most people don't care.
The churches I went to as a teen never seemed to reflect any of the issues I see on here. While certainly not perfect, the main goals taught were spiritual growth and being a witness. The animosity and antagonism I see here is really the first time I'd seen this attitude among Christians. That was over 20 years before it.
I remember being 17/18 and a leader at a youth group I attended. My appearance was a bit outside the Christian norm, even for youth (really long hair, band shirts, chain wallet, etc...)
One of the parents noticed me when picking her kids up and grew suspicious of me. She was shocked I was in leadership, but still distrusted me. Every week after picking her kids up she questioned them about me, what I said and did.
Eventually she worked her way to talking to me directly, since her kids never had anything negative to report back. Long story short(er) she took time to get to know me and realized she misjudged. Eventually trusting me so much as to entrust me with her kids. Watching them when she had to work over night. She basically made her home open to me 24/7.

I compare that to someone on CC who pretended to be friendly and trying to get to know me, then without warning or provocation turned and publicly trashed me and accused me of having bad motives.

I know what I believe on spiritual matters, but I'm not confident or concrete in them. And being unsure means I'm not out to change anyone else's mind on theirs, despite the (so far unfounded) accusations otherwise by some on here.
I'm looking for my own answers and I can Promise that many here do a much greater job at turning me away from God than ever being a help. And I'm certain I'm not the only one that feels that way.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
12,276
4,419
113
#79
the multiple wives thing
you dont forget your first love (Jesus put this in revelation). I do think that divorce seems to be allowed instesd of waiting for the other spouse to die, and I know many divorcees actually agreed to divorce so the other person would be free to marry rather than commit adultery.
otheriwse you are looking at a David complicit in Uriahs death scenario.
but that did end with his first child with Bathesehba dying at birth so that has high repercussions. People often dont think that the children of adultery pay a huge price, sometimes with their lives.
 

MatthewWestfieldUK

Well-known member
May 13, 2021
622
356
63
#80
So here is the thing, when it comes down to the actual stressful points where people are likely before they are gonna need a short and Direct answer. No one is going to remember these lengthy post