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1christian1

Active member
Sep 13, 2018
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Do I get to decide what happens to me before, during and after I murder someone? Or before, during and after I jump off a cliff?

Sometimes choices have consequences that you don't get to choose to avoid if you don't like them. If you don't like the potential consequences of a particular choice, don't make that choice.

Are you gay? If so should you be judged...
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
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Are you retarded! I told you about my situation with my daughter! How I am totally against abortion. My decision in life. I don't get to make decisions for other people any FYI. You don't either...
As usual, you respond with an insult. A person who is supposedly as dedicated to the Lord as you claim to be would not respond in that manner. A person who claims to be a Christian does not respond to another christian by calling them "retarded." Not to mention the term itself is highly pejorative and should not ever be used in any situation.

You are not actually against abortion. You claim to be. I don't go off of what anyone says. Actions are the only thing that count when it comes to gauging whether someone's words are truthful or not. You have made it plain in more than one post that you vote for politicians who are Democrats. Part of the DNC's platform is full support of unfettered elective abortion. Since you vote for Democratic candidates, you support abortion. If you did not support abortion, you would not vote for candidates that did support it. I've pointed this out to you several times, but you steadfastly refuse to deal with it because there isn't anything you can do with it. You can keep claiming that you oppose abortion, but until you stop supporting candidates that advocate it, your words have no meaning behind them. When people are against something, especially a Christian, they work actively to try and stop it, especially when it is a moral issue. You perform actions which literally guarantee that abortion will not only continue, but increase in frequency. So you are "totally" against abortion? Not so much.
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
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Are you retarded! I told you about my situation with my daughter! How I am totally against abortion. My decision in life. I don't get to make decisions for other people any FYI. You don't either...
Your daughter has no relation to the issue itself. You didn't want her aborted, because you helped make her. In that very narrow band you view the issue through, you cared about her. But you don't care about an unborn child you don't know. You don't believe they should have a choice. Only the woman gets a choice. You won't confront that issue either. You avoid angles that you have no wish to deal with. There is a reason for that.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
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God says we do not have the right to murder another human being. A woman is murdering another human being when she has an abortion.
the bible does not say an unborn fetus is the same as a human. murder is killing another human.
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
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the bible does not say an unborn fetus is the same as a human. murder is killing another human.
Wrong. The Bible says God knows each individual before they are even conceived, so God knows every person as an individual human being, before they are even born. So it is still murder, no matter how you wish to put some secular spin on it. Because that's all an argument like yours even is: secular.

"An unborn child doesn't have the same rights, 'cuz it's not a person. Duh."

Ludicrous. Not to mention that anyone that says they care about people and still says abortion is OK, does not actually care about people at all. If they did, they would be advocates for all people equally, not just part of them. You position says the unborn child does not get a choice. You remove that choice from them, and seemingly have no problem with that. Attempting to redefine what a child is while in the womb does not solve your problem. It's still a child.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
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Wrong. The Bible says God knows each individual before they are even conceived, so God knows every person as an individual human being, before they are even born.
of course He does, our soul exist before we are born, but thats a soul and not a human being. a human is flesh plus soul.

So it is still murder, no matter how you wish to put some secular spin on it. Because that's all an argument like yours even is: secular. [/QUOTE]

nope, not murder when the human is not completely formed.

"An unborn child doesn't have the same rights, 'cuz it's not a person. Duh."
???

Ludicrous. Not to mention that anyone that says they care about people and still says abortion is OK, does not actually care about people at all. If they did, they would be advocates for all people equally, not just part of them. You position says the unborn child does not get a choice. You remove that choice from them, and seemingly have no problem with that. Attempting to redefine what a child is while in the womb does not solve your problem. It's still a child.
whats ludicrous is people that think they can edit the bible based on political agendas

life begins with breath, it ends with breath. a baby does not begin to breath until its born.
life does not begin until it receives a soul, we receive our soul at first breath.
how many generations are counted in the bible, many of them, does the generations begin at conception, no, they begin when the child is born.
when Eve says "the Most High gave me a man child" did she say this at conception or birth? answer is birth.
do we have conception days or birth days? answer is birth day because thats when life begins.

is abortion wrong, of course it is, but it doesnt have to be called murdr to be wrong.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
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the bible does not say an unborn fetus is the same as a human. murder is killing another human.
https://www.biblehub.com/jeremiah/1-5.htm
But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace, was pleased Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came ...

I have 4 children, 9 Grandchildren and likely great grand children soon. They are glad that abortion wasn't available to my biological mother in 1954.

Some common sence must prevail. Like when does life begin? And when is killing a helpless, harmless, innocent creation of Gods not murder?
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
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of course He does, our soul exist before we are born, but thats a soul and not a human being. a human is flesh plus soul.

So it is still murder, no matter how you wish to put some secular spin on it. Because that's all an argument like yours even is: secular.
nope, not murder when the human is not completely formed.


???



whats ludicrous is people that think they can edit the bible based on political agendas

life begins with breath, it ends with breath. a baby does not begin to breath until its born.
life does not begin until it receives a soul, we receive our soul at first breath.
how many generations are counted in the bible, many of them, does the generations begin at conception, no, they begin when the child is born.
when Eve says "the Most High gave me a man child" did she say this at conception or birth? answer is birth.
do we have conception days or birth days? answer is birth day because thats when life begins.

is abortion wrong, of course it is, but it doesnt have to be called murdr to be wrong.

Unless you are a Mormon, no, our souls do not exist before we are born. We are not body-less souls drifting around wait for a "host" body. Our souls come into existence when we are conceived.

The fact that abortion is murder in God's eyes, and should be seen as murder by every person who claims to be a Christian has nothing to do with a political agenda. That is nothing but a feint to try and distance one's self from the actual act. Life does not begin once a person is lucky enough to make it out of the womb. If that were true there would be no way that any human being was viable, as a human being until the pregnancy was full term. Life begins the moment a person is conceived. You avoid that definition because for some personal reason, you have no wish to call abortion exactly what it is. You can redefine when life begins, but you can't change the reality of it. There is nothing political about that. You either care about everyone, including unborn children, or you only care about certain groups of people that you think you can segregate by divisions only you understand.

"An unborn child doesn't have the same rights, 'cuz it's not a person. Duh."

The above seems to be your attitude towards abortion. And Biblically-speaking, it's 100% wrong.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
5,134
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lawton ok
Unless you are a Mormon, no, our souls do not exist before we are born. We are not body-less souls drifting around wait for a "host" body. Our souls come into existence when we are conceived.

The fact that abortion is murder in God's eyes, and should be seen as murder by every person who claims to be a Christian has nothing to do with a political agenda. That is nothing but a feint to try and distance one's self from the actual act. Life does not begin once a person is lucky enough to make it out of the womb. If that were true there would be no way that any human being was viable, as a human being until the pregnancy was full term. Life begins the moment a person is conceived. You avoid that definition because for some personal reason, you have no wish to call abortion exactly what it is. You can redefine when life begins, but you can't change the reality of it. There is nothing political about that. You either care about everyone, including unborn children, or you only care about certain groups of people that you think you can segregate by divisions only you understand.

"An unborn child doesn't have the same rights, 'cuz it's not a person. Duh."

The above seems to be your attitude towards abortion. And Biblically-speaking, it's 100% wrong.
Did any of your biological mothers ever tell you they didn't want you and so they left you at the hospital and didn't really care if you lived or died? Mine did! Does anyone really think a mother should have the right to prematurely end a pregnancy because it's unwanted or inconvenient? Or because it's not their plan?

"It's better to be thrown overboard at sea with a large millstone tied around the neck than to harm (corrupt, infect) a child."

Of course I realize the verse I paraphrased is out of context. It's because science and the (so called) Supreme court hadn't decided that unborn babies aren't human until delivery. Horse :poop:.

FYI A major part of my growth as a Christian was when I was able to forgive my bio-mom, set aside my bitterness and live like I belong alive. My children and grandchildren are grateful!
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
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Did any of your biological mothers ever tell you they didn't want you and so they left you at the hospital and didn't really care if you lived or died? Mine did! Does anyone really think a mother should have the right to prematurely end a pregnancy because it's unwanted or inconvenient? Or because it's not their plan?

"It's better to be thrown overboard at sea with a large millstone tied around the neck than to harm (corrupt, infect) a child."

Of course I realize the verse I paraphrased is out of context. It's because science and the (so called) Supreme court hadn't decided that unborn babies aren't human until delivery. Horse :poop:.

FYI A major part of my growth as a Christian was when I was able to forgive my bio-mom, set aside my bitterness and live like I belong alive. My children and grandchildren are grateful!
The millstone reference may not be the best you could use, but the one you gave in Jeremiah earlier is. It clearly says God, Himself forms a person, and that He knows them before they even exist.

Jeremiah 4:4-5 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

That is why people like jaybird won't deal with scripture, they just give their personal opinion or try and say it's a "political" issue. Personal opinion does not trump scripture, ever.

No, I was not left at the hospital. My Dad just treated us like crap the whole time we were growing up. No matter, I'm here for a reason, and so are you. If your Mother had taken you home, who knows what would have happened to you in that kind of situation. That is the whole point that others who just don't see a problem with abortion continually fail to confront, or deal with it all: You are depriving a person of having the ability to have a life. Someone else makes their decision for them. And in this kind of case, where they even think a decision needs to be made, the unborn child usually takes the pipe.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
5,134
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lawton ok
The millstone reference may not be the best you could use, but the one you gave in Jeremiah earlier is. It clearly says God, Himself forms a person, and that He knows them before they even exist.

Jeremiah 4:4-5 The word of the LORD came to me, saying, 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

That is why people like jaybird won't deal with scripture, they just give their personal opinion or try and say it's a "political" issue. Personal opinion does not trump scripture, ever.

No, I was not left at the hospital. My Dad just treated us like crap the whole time we were growing up. No matter, I'm here for a reason, and so are you. If your Mother had taken you home, who knows what would have happened to you in that kind of situation. That is the whole point that others who just don't see a problem with abortion continually fail to confront, or deal with it all: You are depriving a person of having the ability to have a life. Someone else makes their decision for them. And in this kind of case, where they even think a decision needs to be made, the unborn child usually takes the pipe.
I'm not sad or disgusted about the situation. I'm not mad at my egg doner. I'm glad for my current family's sake that common sense used to prevail over selfish, self serving, amoral thinking. I am glad I was adopted and so are my descendants.






Just a few.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
26,213
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the bible does not say an unborn fetus is the same as a human. murder is killing another human.
Exodus 21:22-23. “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
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https://www.biblehub.com/jeremiah/1-5.htm
But when God, who set me apart from my mother's womb and called me by His grace, was pleased Psalm 139:15 My frame was not hidden from You when I was made in secret, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Psalm 139:16 Your eyes saw my unformed body; all my days were written in Your book and ordained for me before one of them came ...

I have 4 children, 9 Grandchildren and likely great grand children soon. They are glad that abortion wasn't available to my biological mother in 1954.

Some common sence must prevail. Like when does life begin? And when is killing a helpless, harmless, innocent creation of Gods not murder?
no one is saying abortion is ok, im just saying it is not murder.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
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Unless you are a Mormon, no, our souls do not exist before we are born. We are not body-less souls drifting around wait for a "host" body. Our souls come into existence when we are conceived.
is this how you establish facts, find the biggest mainstream group and jump right in, and disagree with what anything the that is supported by the minority group?
i am a bit different, i dont let the people next door do the thinking for me, i base my biblical decisions on what the bible says:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

the spirit returns to the Most High. it does not return to non existence.



The fact that abortion is murder in God's eyes, and should be seen as murder by every person who claims to be a Christian has nothing to do with a political agenda. That is nothing but a feint to try and distance one's self from the actual act.
it has everything to do with political agendas. abortion is wrong, why not leave it at that and teach our children to do the same, but we cant because it does not have the same political impact as screaming MURDER!!

Life does not begin once a person is lucky enough to make it out of the womb.
according to the bible it does. lets look at those facts i gave you before, you remember, they were the ones you ignored:

life begins with breath, it ends with breath. a baby does not begin to breath until its born.
life does not begin until it receives a soul, we receive our soul at first breath.
how many generations are counted in the bible, many of them, does the generations begin at conception, no, they begin when the child is born.
when Eve says "the Most High gave me a man child" did she say this at conception or birth? answer is birth.
do we have conception days or birth days? answer is birth day because thats when life begins.
do you have a response?



If that were true there would be no way that any human being was viable, as a human being until the pregnancy was full term. Life begins the moment a person is conceived. You avoid that definition because for some personal reason, you have no wish to call abortion exactly what it is. You can redefine when life begins, but you can't change the reality of it. There is nothing political about that. You either care about everyone, including unborn children, or you only care about certain groups of people that you think you can segregate by divisions only you understand.

"An unborn child doesn't have the same rights, 'cuz it's not a person. Duh."

The above seems to be your attitude towards abortion. And Biblically-speaking, it's 100% wrong.
i follow what the bible teaches. i agree the life creation process may begin at conception, but you are not a human until you have a soul and breathing on your own.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
5,118
365
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Exodus 21:22-23. “If men fight, and hurt a woman with child, so that she gives birth prematurely, yet no harm follows, he shall surely be punished accordingly as the woman’s husband imposes on him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. But if any harm follows, then you shall give life for life.
very controversial passage. i dont really have a stance on it. some believe that if the baby dies and the mother lives its life for life, others that if the baby dies and the mother dies its life for life for the mother.
im assuming your going with the life for life for the baby, if the baby is born dead its life for life, if the baby is born premature and lives, the man pays a fine. the issue i have with this is why is the man charged a fine for doing nothing wrong, the baby was born ok, all went well. doesnt make sense.

biblehub.com
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(22-25) A personal injury peculiar to women—a hurt producing miscarriage—is here considered. The miscarriage might cost the woman her life, in which case the man who caused it was to suffer death (Exodus 21:23); or it might have no further ill result than the loss of the child. In this latter case the penalty was to be a fine, assessed by the husband with the consent of the judge (Exodus 21:22). The death penalty, where the woman died, is clearly excessive, and probably belongs to the pre-Mosaic legislation, which required “life for life” in every case.

(22) If men strive, and hurt a woman with child.—It is assumed that this hurt would probably take place through the interference of a pregnant wife in some strife wherein her husband was engaged. It would almost certainly be accidental.

And yet no mischief follow—i.e., no further mischief—nothing beyond the loss of the child.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
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Are you saying unborn babies aren't people? Which translation of the bible did you get that idea from?
im saying i think there is a difference between a body with a soul and a body without one.

i thnk abortion is wrong, not because its murder, its wrong because you dont screw around with the creation process once it is started. the baby is being formed by the Most High, that in its self is a big deal, neither the mother or father tell the egg to grow two arms and legs, thats the Father doing that. however i believe the birth is very significant.
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
5,134
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lawton ok
im saying i think there is a difference between a body with a soul and a body without one.

i thnk abortion is wrong, not because its murder, its wrong because you dont screw around with the creation process once it is started. the baby is being formed by the Most High, that in its self is a big deal, neither the mother or father tell the egg to grow two arms and legs, thats the Father doing that. however i believe the birth is very significant.
And I believe in the development of the soul starting with conception. The Bible shows that very clearly.
 

cobalt1959

Active member
Feb 10, 2019
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is this how you establish facts, find the biggest mainstream group and jump right in, and disagree with what anything the that is supported by the minority group?
i am a bit different, i dont let the people next door do the thinking for me, i base my biblical decisions on what the bible says:
In America, those who feel abortion is wrong are now a minority, so you just shot yourself in the foot with that comment. You have sided with the majority. How convenient.

You are not going by what the Bible says. If you were, you would not have to continue to paint anyone who disagrees with you as having some kind of political agenda. That is a feint, every time you do it, and it doesn't work. You either care about everyone, or you care about no one. You don't have the option of excluding one group just because you don't think they are "alive." And your way of thinking is NOT supported by the Bible. If you think it is, you don't have a good working knowledge of the Bible. People have given you scripture, and you wave your hand in dismissal and then offer a passage from Ecclesiastes that doesn't even support what you are saying. Also, that particular scripture has huge problems with the way you posted it.. Let's look at it exactly as you posted it:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

the spirit returns to the Most High. it does not return to non existence.
Where did the red part come from? Because that last part was not attached to any translation I looked at. If that was something added by you, you should have so noted instead of making it look like it was part of the original verse. That scripture is the exact one that Mormons use to try to support their false doctrine of pre-existence, so your choice to use it in this thread is interesting. It doesn't prove souls pre-exist because it does not deal with the soul's point of origin except for God giving it, and even a simple review of the Bible shows a person's soul comes into existence when that person is conceived. Once the soul is in existence, then it exists forever, but only in one of two places. Are you a Mormon?
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
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In America, those who feel abortion is wrong are now a minority, so you just shot yourself in the foot with that comment. You have sided with the majority. How convenient.
Wow that went right over your head. Im running out of ways to explain this point. I dont use any group (majority / minority) to establish a point.

You are not going by what the Bible says. If you were, you would not have to continue to paint anyone who disagrees with you as having some kind of political agenda. That is a feint, every time you do it, and it doesn't work. You either care about everyone, or you care about no one. You don't have the option of excluding one group just because you don't think they are "alive." And your way of thinking is NOT supported by the Bible. If you think it is, you don't have a good working knowledge of the Bible. People have given you scripture, and you wave your hand in dismissal and then offer a passage from Ecclesiastes that doesn't even support what you are saying. Also, that particular scripture has huge problems with the way you posted it.. Let's look at it exactly as you posted it:
I actually am going by what the bible says, here they are again:

life begins with breath, it ends with breath. a baby does not begin to breath until its born.
life does not begin until it receives a soul, we receive our soul at first breath.
how many generations are counted in the bible, many of them, does the generations begin at conception, no, they begin when the child is born.
when Eve says "the Most High gave me a man child" did she say this at conception or birth? answer is birth.
do we have conception days or birth days? answer is birth day because thats when life begins.
strange you keep ignoring these facts

Where did the red part come from? Because that last part was not attached to any translation I looked at. If that was something added by you, you should have so noted instead of making it look like it was part of the original verse.
Are you being serious, are you really suggesting im presenting my own words as scripture? Lets look again:

Ecclesiastes 12:7
and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
SPACE----------------------
the spirit returns to the Most High. it does not return to non existence.
do you see where i wrote "space" i even made a line "-------------" , now i didnt have that in before but i added that to let you know there was a space there. that means the passage is over and the next words are my comments on the passage. make sense?

That scripture is the exact one that Mormons use to try to support their false doctrine of pre-existence, so your choice to use it in this thread is interesting. It doesn't prove souls pre-exist because it does not deal with the soul's point of origin except for God giving it, and even a simple review of the Bible shows a person's soul comes into existence when that person is conceived. Once the soul is in existence, then it exists forever, but only in one of two places. Are you a Mormon?
and here we are back to you establishing facts based on what mormons think. so anytime we read the bible we have to run and find a mormon and find out what they think, see how dumb that sounds? i have no idea what mormons believe, like i said before (3rd time now) i dont let groups do the thinking for me. i would advise against it being as you will always be changing your mind based on what group your currently with at that moment.
the fact of the matter is the bible says our spirit goes "back" to where it came from. it goes back to its point of origin which is the Most High. this point of origin is where the soul existed before it was given. now if the bible said our spirit vanished into thin air because it never existed until we were born, you would have a valid argument, however no scripture says this.

here are some fun facts on pre existence. in the days of Jesus and the 12, these are the different sects that believed in pre existence:
Pharisees
Zealots
Essenes - (John the Baptist)
Nazoreans - (Jesus)

only one sect i klnow that rejected this idea and that was the Sadducee, they believed in no pre existence, no heavens, no angels, no afterlife. very dark hopeless sect, sound so much like atheist of today. if my thoughts lined up with these guys i would be very worried.

it was not until imperial rome came along, killed Jesus, killed and imprisoned most of the 12, killed St Paul, took over the faith and made many changes. pre existence would be one of those changes.