Please explain if possible

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iConflicted

Guest
#61
I have no idea what a 'Christian Filter ' is. As for Enoch it has been known in the west from at least the early 20th Century.
A man surnamed Charles translated amd commentated on that book and many other Books outside the Bible and his translations can still be bought today. Constantine did not select the Books to be included in the Bible. The council consisted a large number of Bishops over which Constantine presided. It was they that approved those of the New Testament. The Greek translation of the Old Testament had been accepted as Scripture from the very beginning of the Church by Gentile Christians. Some of the NT books now included were not accepted at that time. A notable one is the Book of Revelation. Other rejected books were the 1st and 2nd book of Peter, The Gospel of Peter and The Shepherd of Hermas. I concede that Constanties motives were partly political in that he saw the Christian faith as a means of consolidating his power. It is debatable whether he was a Christian himself at that time, having been a devotee
of Sol Invictus. although his Mother was a Christian. He is belived to have been coverted on his death bed.
Christian filters. Paradigm. Dogma.

Considering the Church's early history, I have a very hard time accepting them as the ones who decided what we read today as Scripture. How early did Satan take over, as I can't help but think he has plenty of control over the Vatican.

In another thread, I'm coming to some understanding about Scripture. If I keep replying here I feel I'll lose it. Perhaps we can switch over to 'Answer me this' thread in the Bible discussion section. Remaining in the conspiracy thread at this point may not be helpful to me. I need to correct my thinking method. And I think sticking to a single thread will keep me grounded. I'm all over the place. Need a focal point, as my threads are concerning the same thing basically.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#62
A great many Christians are under the impression that our scriptures were written in the same order in which they now appear in the canon. These documents have been exhaustively studied by a great many biblical scholars particularly in the last two centuries. The large majority of these scholars, both conservative and liberal, now agree with what has come to be called "the documentary hypothesis" when dealing with the Torah.

In the late 1800s, a group of scholars in Germany led by Professors K. H. Graf and Julius Wellhausen began to study rigorously the details of the first five books of the Bible – Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. These books, called the Torah or the Books of Moses, constitute the most sacred part of the Hebrew Scriptures and were traditionally required by the Jews to be read in their entirety on the Sabbaths of a single year in the synagogues of the Jewish world. These scholars began to apply to these texts the insights of literary criticism. The results were salutary and more than anything else opened the doors to a new academic interest in the Bible itself.

Analyzing these texts carefully, these scholars discovered that there were many observable differences that could be noted which led them to the conclusion that the Torah consisted of several strands of what had once been independent material. One strand referred to God by the name Yahweh, or at least by an unpronounceable set of consonants that were written as YHWH, and it called the holy mountain of the Jews Mt. Sinai. Another strand of material called God by the name of Elohim and it called the holy mountain Mt. Horeb. A third strand of material reflected life in the Kingdom of Judah in the seventh century. Still another strand appeared to be dated during the time of the Exile and perhaps even later. When they began to separate these strands from one another, other insights became available.

These four strands are termed, in the order mentioned above, as J or Jahwist, E or Elohist, D or Deuteronomist and P or Priestly. These four strands were cut and pasted into a new document by R or Redactor (Editor) at some point late in the Exile or shortly after. All of this leads to modern confusion because the subject matter of the different strands is frequently similar but is handled quite differently.

For example, there are contradictions found in the three versions of the Ten Commandments contained in the Bible (Exodus 34:1-28, Exodus 20:1-17, Deuteronomy 5:1-21). The three versions are not the same. Exodus 34, the oldest version at about 950 BC, is from the pen of the "J" or Jahwist writer and is not one of which many have ever heard. The final commandment in this earliest version reads "You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk." Why, we are led to wonder, was this original set of Ten Commandments rejected or replaced? The second version Exodus 20, from about 850 BC, was from the pen of the "E" or Elohist writer, but was greatly expanded about 560 BC by a group of people called the "P" or priestly writers. Did these writers, who added so much to the entire body of the Jewish Scriptures, do so because they judged the original version to be so woefully inadequate that it required major additions and editing? Does one alter or tamper with what one believes to be "The Word of God?" The third version, Deuteronomy 5 in about 625 BC, was from the pen of the "D" or Deuteronomic writers composed somewhere between the original writing of Exodus 20 and the expansion done on that same text some 400 or so years later. For example, the version in Deuteronomy did not offer as the reason the Sabbath must be observed the fact that God rested on the Sabbath, for that version of that seven day creation story had not yet been written. So this author states that the Sabbath is to be observed because the people of Israel must remember that they were once slaves in Egypt and even slaves must have a day of rest. Which of these versions of the Ten Commandments, we might ask, can qualify as "The Word of God?"
 
Much later in the Old Testament Micah seems to summarize the commandments into just three:

Micah 6:8 --- And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

Looking ahead into the New Testament we find:

Mark 10:19 --- Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
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Here Jesus only lists six of the ten. When we look at the other two synoptic gospels we quickly note that "Defraud not" is not on Matthew's and Luke's list of Jesus' commandments. We also note Jesus' famous summary of the commandments down to just two:

Matthew 22: 35-40 --- One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
this misrepresents numerous factual matters related to the documentary hypothesis...

these days the documentary hypothesis is really only still unquestioningly accepted by scholars in the united states and canada...much of the scholarly community in europe...where the theory first originated...are now ahead of us in abandoning or at least severely modifying the theory... among those who still accept the general idea of documentary sources...there is an increasing proliferation of variations on the theme...eliminating one or more of the originally postulated four sources...adding new sources...shifting material from one source to another...

also misrepresented here is the origin of the documentary hypothesis...in reality it was far more agenda driven than simply two scholars noticing a pattern in the torah... a theory already existed due to edward tylor that suggested an 'evolutionary' approach to how judaism and other world religions developed...when wellhausen saw in the torah increasingly sophisticated 'strands' of authorship in accordance with tylor's theory...he was only seeing what he wanted to see...

the truth is that the documentary hypothesis rests entirely on almost laughable logic...so seriously flawed that it is hard to understand how anyone ever accepted it except in the context of tylor's theory on the evolutionary development of religion... essentially the documentary hypothesis demands the most complicated scenario possible as an explanation for characteristics of the torah text that can be much more simply explained without it...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#63
Why do people wish to discount Enoch so hard when it is obviously important to this generation's plight?

Roswell happened in '47.
Is it coincidence that a boy found Enoch the following year in a cave? Or was it God handing us a manual? I take the latter view myself.
your history is faulty...

the book of enoch was known from the ethiopic long before it was found among the copies stored in the qumran caves...

and furthermore neither constantine nor the council he convened canonized anything...contrary to what you mistakenly imply in your other post below...

the truth is the opposite of what you think it is...the increasing interest in the books of enoch and other mythological and occultic texts is one of the major -causes- of this generation's plight...these days people and even many christians are seeking 'knowledge' everywhere -except- in God's word...
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#64
oh and regarding 'lilith'...lilith was a jewish fairy tale based on a misunderstanding of a text in isaiah that mentions desert creatures...the word in the text is connected with 'lilah' which simply means 'night'...it was referring to some kind of night animal that lives in the desert...probably a type of owl according to many scholars...

but some jews with overactive imaginations supposed instead that lilith was some kind of nocturnal desert demon...they actually used to tell children that 'lilith' would get them at night if they weren't good...

by medieval times a whole set of myths and occultic teachings had appeared around this imaginary character of 'lilith'...including the one where she was the original created wife of adam who was found to be insufficiently submissive...was replaced by eve who was made from adam's rib as in genesis...and then ran off with satan and became a demon...


the 'common denominator' confusion problem i am seeing is that you are looking at -late fabrications- and mistakenly putting them on the same level as the scriptures that these fictions were produced to embellish...
 
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Tintin

Guest
#65
iConflicted, I know I posted that Chuck Missler video about the Bible and how it came to us. But it was rather long. Here's another video. It's available in two parts of 30mins each. I don't agree with everything in it (eg. the need to celebrate the Sabbath day, because I believe Jesus is the Sabbath) but the video is still very worthwhile. I hope this helps.

Part One:
[video=youtube;Pu4TJcyq5n0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu4TJcyq5n0[/video]

Part Two:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_L5crqWQbs
 
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iConflicted

Guest
#66
In another thread, I'm coming to some understanding about Scripture. If I keep replying here I feel I'll lose it. Perhaps we can switch over to 'Answer me this' thread in the Bible discussion section. Remaining in the conspiracy thread at this point may not be helpful to me. I need to correct my thinking method. And I think sticking to a single thread will keep me grounded. I'm all over the place. Need a focal point, as my threads are concerning the same thing basically.
:) I'm taking a break from non-canonical books atm. Im going to read my Bible some more and pray that what I've learned here from some of you will help me process it differently. I want nourishment more than a deeper understanding. I should be more grounded in my faith before I attempt to wrestle Satan again. He's a wicked hard opponent.
I'm grateful for the helps. Be blessed :)
(Oh and I'm visiting less 'serious' threads as advised):)
 
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iConflicted

Guest
#67
iConflicted, I know I posted that Chuck Missler video about the Bible and how it came to us. But it was rather long. Here's another video. It's available in two parts of 30mins each. I don't agree with everything in it (eg. the need to celebrate the Sabbath day, because I believe Jesus is the Sabbath) but the video is still very worthwhile. I hope this helps.

Part One:
[video=youtube;Pu4TJcyq5n0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu4TJcyq5n0[/video]

Part Two:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_L5crqWQbs
I went here instead https://bible.org/seriespage/7-bible-holy-canon-scripture
:) I hope the site is credible.
 
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RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#70
:) I'm taking a break from non-canonical books atm. Im going to read my Bible some more and pray that what I've learned here from some of you will help me process it differently. I want nourishment more than a deeper understanding. I should be more grounded in my faith before I attempt to wrestle Satan again. He's a wicked hard opponent.
I'm grateful for the helps. Be blessed :)
(Oh and I'm visiting less 'serious' threads as advised):)
this sounds like a good idea...

but i want to point out that scripture -never- advises us to look into the 'deep things of satan' -regardless- of where we are in our spiritual walk...that stuff is dangerous at any stage and even 'grounded' people have been led astray all too easily...you don't want to get grounded in your faith only to jump back into the stuff that exists solely to dissolve the ground you stand on...

of course this is directly opposite to the 'know your enemy' obsession mindset that is frequently promoted among christians these days...but it seems you may have come to understand that such approaches are not as wise as they pretend to be...


anyway i started this thread on the forum a while ago...it may help you with what you have decided to focus on...
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/115631-torah-study.html
you are invited to join in...the main rule is not to be contentious...so far people have refrained from making contentious statements and from having to prove themselves 'right' :)
 
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iConflicted

Guest
#71
'deep things of satan' -regardless- of where we are in our spiritual walk...that stuff is dangerous at any stage and even 'grounded' people have been led astray all too easily..
I appreciate your warning. I don't think is so bad as demonic, all fairy tales and pixie dust.. but certainly far less important than a closer relationship with God.
I study non-canon because much is cultural history. I enjoy history heaps. I don't aim to have it added to the Bible, I was just genuinely wanting to know why it wasn't important enough to include. I understand better after some enlightening posts, messages and solid links.

Thank you for the invite to Torah. I'm going to begin solo I think. If I start to lose motivation or feel uninspired I will definitely seek fellowship here at CC.
 
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Tiz

Guest
#72
Shouldn't this be in the bible forum, rather than the conspiracy forum? :confused:
Literally every thread I've looked at since I joined this site has you saying it's in the wrong place.