Question about The Masks

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maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
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Pretty good perspective Rose but i'm glad you use the word Placebo.
This is exactly why i was asking why the second amendment is there in the first place, and i also linked it to a placebo
without saying the word placebo.

So if you're able to see other placebos which apply to different groups in life, would you be able to see your own placebo which someone would like to take away from you for example?
You try to make the argument here that just as a mask is a placebo, so is the 2nd amendment, based on the fact that gun owners don't run around every day shooting tyrants.

This is a false dichotomy.
A.)
A mask is not like a gun... one is effective at it's intended purpose, and the other is not.
B.) Constraining your use of a thing (such as a firearm) does not render the thing intrinsically ineffective, like a placebo.


1.) A mask and a gun are not equal in effectiveness:
A.) A mask is completely ineffective in preventing viral transmission, it does nothing. That is the scientific data.
B.) A gun is quite effective at what it's intended to do. If you don't think a gun is effective, trying standing in front of one when it's being fired.

2.) If a mask is ineffective but a gun is effective, then only the mask has the ability to act as a placebo... as the definition of placebo requires intrinsic ineffectiveness.
A.) A thing which is effective at it's stated purpose cannot be a placebo, as the definition of placebo entails that something be wholly ineffective. A placebo must be intrinsically incapable of causing an effect. A placebo is used for control groups, in studies, BECAUSE it is intrinsically incapable of causing an effect.
B.) Whether or not you choose to use a thing has nothing to do with it's intrinsic effectiveness.
C.) Example #1: If I don't drive my car today, my car does not turn into a placebo. My car is still a car, and it's quite effective at it's intended purpose... it is wholly effective, and I'm able to choose how often I use it. Even if I never drive my car at all, it's still intrinsically effective at it's stated purpose.
D.) Example #2: If I have a mask, it is completely ineffective, whether I use it or not. The scientific data confirms it is intrinsically ineffective, incapable, of stopping viral transmission. It is intrinsically ineffective. On the other hand, cars and firearms are quite effective... they are still intrinsically effective at their stated purpose, even when we choose not to use them.
E.) Conclusion: My car never becomes a placebo when I choose not to use it, and neither does a firearm - both remain inherently effective at their at stated purposed.

3.) The means (such at the 2nd amendment) to own something effective (such as a firearm), simply does not fit the definition of a placebo.
A.) A placebo is something which is intrinsically ineffective.
B.) The 2nd amendment is the means to own something which is intrinsically effective.
C.) As proven above, the frequency with which we use a thing has nothing to do with it's intrinsic effectiveness... and thus has no bearing on a thing being a placebo.



It's gets tiresome to watch the ceaselessly browbeating of normal folks with endless gaslighting and illogical arguments.




Have a lovely day.

.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
4,778
2,067
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You try to make the argument here that just as a mask is a placebo, so is the 2nd amendment, based on the fact that gun owners don't run around every day shooting tyrants.

This is a false dichotomy.
A.)
A mask is not like a gun... one is effective at it's intended purpose, and the other is not.
B.) Constraining your use of a thing (such as a firearm) does not render the thing intrinsically ineffective, like a placebo.


1.) A mask and a gun are not equal in effectiveness:
A.) A mask is completely ineffective in preventing viral transmission, it does nothing. That is the scientific data.
B.) A gun is quite effective at what it's intended to do. If you don't think a gun is effective, trying standing in front of one when it's being fired.

2.) If a mask is ineffective but a gun is effective, then only the mask has the ability to act as a placebo... as the definition of placebo requires intrinsic ineffectiveness.
A.) A thing which is effective at it's stated purpose cannot be a placebo, as the definition of placebo entails that something be wholly ineffective. A placebo must be intrinsically incapable of causing an effect. A placebo is used for control groups, in studies, BECAUSE it is intrinsically incapable of causing an effect.
B.) Whether or not you choose to use a thing has nothing to do with it's intrinsic effectiveness.
C.) Example #1: If I don't drive my car today, my car does not turn into a placebo. My car is still a car, and it's quite effective at it's intended purpose... it is wholly effective, and I'm able to choose how often I use it. Even if I never drive my car at all, it's still intrinsically effective at it's stated purpose.
D.) Example #2: If I have a mask, it is completely ineffective, whether I use it or not. The scientific data confirms it is intrinsically ineffective, incapable, of stopping viral transmission. It is intrinsically ineffective. On the other hand, cars and firearms are quite effective... they are still intrinsically effective at their stated purpose, even when we choose not to use them.
E.) Conclusion: My car never becomes a placebo when I choose not to use it, and neither does a firearm - both remain inherently effective at their at stated purposed.

3.) The means (such at the 2nd amendment) to own something effective (such as a firearm), simply does not fit the definition of a placebo.
A.) A placebo is something which is intrinsically ineffective.
B.) The 2nd amendment is the means to own something which is intrinsically effective.
C.) As proven above, the frequency with which we use a thing has nothing to do with it's intrinsic effectiveness... and thus has no bearing on a thing being a placebo.



It's gets tiresome to watch the ceaselessly browbeating of normal folks with endless gaslighting and illogical arguments.




Have a lovely day.

.
The first thing i'd like to tell you here is that because you are emotionally charged in this topic you're reading past a lot of things that i've said.
Since you've been unable to answer me why are you asking about threads derailing let me tell you my perspective.

Because you are emotionally charged, you're unable to see things fairly which is why you ignored that topics derail all the time here since you've ever been here in this site.
And as you know Maxwell someone who is not fair and is biased cannot be trusted in their assessment can he?

I propose we try a new thing.
Every time i see things that are completely off-base here i will CC you (by tagging your name). You might ask what will we gain from this? Well, first it would be a lot of fun because you and I will play together in the conspiracy forums and secondly ... who knows you might even learn something about fairness and bias.
Let me know what you think.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,526
2,608
113
I propose we try a new thing. Every time....
I'm quite happy with the ways things are:
You are free to subject the forum to irrational nonsense, at your good pleasure,
and I am free to refute said nonsense, whenever I happen to have the time.

Have a lovely day.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
4,778
2,067
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I'm quite happy with the ways things are:
You are free to subject the forum to irrational nonsense, at your good pleasure,
and I am free to refute said nonsense, whenever I happen to have the time.

Have a lovely day.
Ah okay, so this means that you want to be in your bubble then or your placebo. Got it.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
2,174
113
Is this discussion about the who's who in moral dictation? Is my conscience only a placebo?
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
6,233
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Not sure I would call a religious reason for a face covering a placebo. Nor would I say at all times a mask is a placebo. Some use the mask against the flu or colds and say it works for them. If they choose that, I am not against it. What I am against is mandates for people to wear masks and closing down schools, even playgrounds were closed. There was no science behind any of the social distancing, the plastic partisans, the one way arrows, one person per household, the eating in a tent in the parking lot. And the vast majority of this has made people distrust their doctors, the CDC and world health org.
The arguments you are making are incongruous.

Just because you personally don't understand why....others do.

And ever since the Government was first formed nobody has ever trusted them. This is obvious with Saul, David, Solomon and through today. If you trust a politician then you have some real issues. "In God we trust" that doesn't extend to the Politicians who are not God or anything like God.
The WHO?
They have never, ever been trustworthy in their public statements. The only thing they really are valuable for is in assisting researchers attain contacts in various places so they can conduct research. Otherwise they are a waste of space/time. They do have some good studies though.
But trust them?
Nope...never...and I am good friends with several people who work there.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
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The arguments you are making are incongruous.

Just because you personally don't understand why....others do.
Can you elaborate? What don't I personally understand?!

And ever since the Government was first formed nobody has ever trusted them. This is obvious with Saul, David, Solomon and through today. If you trust a politician then you have some real issues. "In God we trust" that doesn't extend to the Politicians who are not God or anything like God.
I don't know about trusting politicians, but I don't think anyone saw the COVID restrictions coming. And they were worse in some states than others. So if I had even a modicum of trust in them, now it's considerably less.


The WHO?
They have never, ever been trustworthy in their public statements. The only thing they really are valuable for is in assisting researchers attain contacts in various places so they can conduct research. Otherwise they are a waste of space/time. They do have some good studies though.
But trust them?
Nope...never...and I am good friends with several people who work there.
Honestly not familiar with them. Maybe because I grew up in Canada, I don't know. I mean I understood basically who they were but never gave it any serious thought until COVID hit.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
6,233
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Can you elaborate? What don't I personally understand?!



I don't know about trusting politicians, but I don't think anyone saw the COVID restrictions coming. And they were worse in some states than others. So if I had even a modicum of trust in them, now it's considerably less.




Honestly not familiar with them. Maybe because I grew up in Canada, I don't know. I mean I understood basically who they were but never gave it any serious thought until COVID hit.
I understand....
My wife has been a member of the research community for a long time. I have many personal relationships with many PhDs and research scientists. Some who even had done stints at the CDC. Vaccines, quarantines, masks and distancing are SOP for viruses. It has been successful many times against ebola and many other nasty viruses you really don't want to know about.

When I heard about covid and its coming...I at first thought nothing of it. Then the first quarantines came about overseas. And I became concerned. Then they came here.
Unfortunately I know way too much about all this. Most everything that you are hearing is propaganda anymore. Yes, masks protect others from you. You will never know that you are sick until its too late. The 10 day minimum incubation period is one of the worst we have ever had to deal with. And that incubation period is one of the chief indicators of how severe a pandemic will be. Influenza is 6 hours minimum by comparison. Viral load is another key factor. One or two virons is a massive difference than getting a thousand. One won't get you sick....the other will in two weeks.

And despite the hype...this is NOT a respiratory virus. It may transmit using your respiratory system but it primarily is an endocrine system virus. The damages done by this virus are much more severe and longer lasting than a respiratory virus. Despite the politics...this is not really a thing to play political games with. What really shocked me was the literal blizzard of phoney research papers making headlines and a few even got into respected journals. All using key phrases like "peer reviewed"...as if the janitors at hospitals could review the science and calculus used.

In the USA the individual states have exclusive power over quarantines instead of the Federal Government. It's OUR system...not Canada's.
You guys got Trudeau...a Real piece of work there.

Where nobody can force you to take a vaccine...but the trying to force vaccinations by governments is a human rights violation.

Funny how they have campaigned before on such issues perpetrated by others. Now they are the guilty.

The coming variants are extremely unpredictable. They thought they had a projected variant path...it was wrong.
There are over 20,000 different variations of this virus. Some kill you quick and others slow...I've heard about the ones causing open bleeding sores. (Likely coming soon too)
 

NightTwister

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2023
2,101
793
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65
Colorado, USA
I understand....
My wife has been a member of the research community for a long time. I have many personal relationships with many PhDs and research scientists. Some who even had done stints at the CDC. Vaccines, quarantines, masks and distancing are SOP for viruses. It has been successful many times against ebola and many other nasty viruses you really don't want to know about.

When I heard about covid and its coming...I at first thought nothing of it. Then the first quarantines came about overseas. And I became concerned. Then they came here.
Unfortunately I know way too much about all this. Most everything that you are hearing is propaganda anymore. Yes, masks protect others from you. You will never know that you are sick until its too late. The 10 day minimum incubation period is one of the worst we have ever had to deal with. And that incubation period is one of the chief indicators of how severe a pandemic will be. Influenza is 6 hours minimum by comparison. Viral load is another key factor. One or two virons is a massive difference than getting a thousand. One won't get you sick....the other will in two weeks.

And despite the hype...this is NOT a respiratory virus. It may transmit using your respiratory system but it primarily is an endocrine system virus. The damages done by this virus are much more severe and longer lasting than a respiratory virus. Despite the politics...this is not really a thing to play political games with. What really shocked me was the literal blizzard of phoney research papers making headlines and a few even got into respected journals. All using key phrases like "peer reviewed"...as if the janitors at hospitals could review the science and calculus used.

In the USA the individual states have exclusive power over quarantines instead of the Federal Government. It's OUR system...not Canada's.
You guys got Trudeau...a Real piece of work there.
Where nobody can force you to take a vaccine...but the trying to force vaccinations by governments is a human rights violation.

Funny how they have campaigned before on such issues perpetrated by others. Now they are the guilty.

The coming variants are extremely unpredictable. They thought they had a projected variant path...it was wrong.
There are over 20,000 different variations of this virus. Some kill you quick and others slow...I've heard about the ones causing open bleeding sores. (Likely coming soon too)
Results prove that masks did nothing to slow the spread of the virus. There was no difference in outcomes in places that forced mandates, and those that did not. The arrogance of the medical field knows no bounds. They claim to be scientists, but refuse any sort of criticism. The CDC's long history of experimentation on Americans completely disqualifies them from any conversation, recommendation, and mandate.
 

notmyown

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
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Results prove that masks did nothing to slow the spread of the virus. There was no difference in outcomes in places that forced mandates, and those that did not. The arrogance of the medical field knows no bounds. They claim to be scientists, but refuse any sort of criticism. The CDC's long history of experimentation on Americans completely disqualifies them from any conversation, recommendation, and mandate.
i cannot, for the life of me, understand why we're supposed to obey rules laid down by non-legislators.

a pox on all the regulatory agencies.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
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Results prove that masks did nothing to slow the spread of the virus. There was no difference in outcomes in places that forced mandates, and those that did not. The arrogance of the medical field knows no bounds. They claim to be scientists, but refuse any sort of criticism. The CDC's long history of experimentation on Americans completely disqualifies them from any conversation, recommendation, and mandate.
Okay so here's the problem here with "results".
Depending on which team you're on, if i or John give you some results then you will dismiss them as left-wing biased propaganda.
And if you give me some results, i will dismiss them as right-wing biased propaganda.
So where is the truth then?

This is why i was trying to keep the convo at the common-sense level not at the technical level.
Common sense tells you that when you have a barrier in your face you prevent someone from sneezing on you and getting their saliva.

This is also a pure fashion choice and i love using the word fashion here because think of it as someone wearing a tie at the office.

Now the general sentiment here is that most people don't have a problem with what people wear in their face or their neck but they have a problem with mandates and in response to that i said that complaining doesn't do much except maybe venting a little and getting it off your chest - that's helpful actually.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
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i cannot, for the life of me, understand why we're supposed to obey rules laid down by non-legislators.

a pox on all the regulatory agencies.
They are training you the same way they train a dog.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,748
6,740
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Okay so here's the problem here with "results".
Depending on which team you're on, if i or John give you some results then you will dismiss them as left-wing biased propaganda.
And if you give me some results, i will dismiss them as right-wing biased propaganda.
So where is the truth then?

This is why i was trying to keep the convo at the common-sense level not at the technical level.
Common sense tells you that when you have a barrier in your face you prevent someone from sneezing on you and getting their saliva.

This is also a pure fashion choice and i love using the word fashion here because think of it as someone wearing a tie at the office.

Now the general sentiment here is that most people don't have a problem with what people wear in their face or their neck but they have a problem with mandates and in response to that i said that complaining doesn't do much except maybe venting a little and getting it off your chest - that's helpful actually.
A sneeze guard at the checkout is much more effective than the mask.

This does sound like common sense but when you see people driving around alone in a car with the mask on it is obvious this is not a common sense debate.
 

NightTwister

Well-known member
Jul 5, 2023
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Colorado, USA
Okay so here's the problem here with "results".
Depending on which team you're on, if i or John give you some results then you will dismiss them as left-wing biased propaganda.
And if you give me some results, i will dismiss them as right-wing biased propaganda.
So where is the truth then?

This is why i was trying to keep the convo at the common-sense level not at the technical level.
Common sense tells you that when you have a barrier in your face you prevent someone from sneezing on you and getting their saliva.

This is also a pure fashion choice and i love using the word fashion here because think of it as someone wearing a tie at the office.

Now the general sentiment here is that most people don't have a problem with what people wear in their face or their neck but they have a problem with mandates and in response to that i said that complaining doesn't do much except maybe venting a little and getting it off your chest - that's helpful actually.
"Results" are what happened across the country and world. Results show no difference. It's really not biased, nor propaganda. It becomes propaganda when you try to silence dissent.
 

LightOfMyLife

Well-known member
May 6, 2023
389
429
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Independence, Mo
They are training you the same way they train a dog.
It is about power and control. They want your cooperation/obedience to comply. One of these days those left behind in the tribulation the ac will want you to take the mark or you will not be able to buy or sell. For those who don't comply they will be beheaded.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
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"Results" are what happened across the country and world. Results show no difference. It's really not biased, nor propaganda. It becomes propaganda when you try to silence dissent.
Those who silence dissent have their own agenda obviously but in here, right now, this is a free, open talk where we're trying to understand each-other's point of view.

As i mentioned earlier, the problem seems to be with mandates and yes i totally agree with those who don't want to wear them just because the government says so. It's totally your right.
I also said that on a molecular level, common sense tells you that the virus isn't prevented because otherwise how would you be able to breathe air through your mask right?
But it DOES prevent someone's snot on your salad like you said.

That's why some people have them.
Also, people in Asia have been keeping them for decades as 2 other members mentioned so maybe they do it for fashion choices maybe to prevent snots in salads or for other reasons.

The point is we should all have free-will to make a choice.
You should have a choice to reject what the government says and i should have a choice to put a mask on.