Outsider: The Truth & Why I'm Here

[hattiebod]

Some of you may have already seen a few of my posts or talked to me over the chat. If you have, you probably know that I am quite opinionated, and I won't hesitate to speak my mind if I feel someone is wrong. However, it's about time I shed some light on my views and the reason why I'm here.

Outsider isn't merely an alias, it represents what I am. I am an outsider, an atheist within a theist community. The reason I bring this up is because it would be unfair for me to post under the false premise that I'm a Christian, when in reality, I'm not.

I did not come to this site to convert people to atheism. The two reasons I am here are as follows: 1.) I wish to examine different Christian views and responses to different questions and problems. 2.) I would like to offer the best advice I can to people who can use it.

About My Atheism:

I am going to briefly explain why I'm an atheist, a few of my views on religion, and I'm going to clear up potential misconceptions. As I said before, I have no intention of converting anyone to atheism. If you want to talk to me about my religious views (or lack thereof), feel free to do so here, or PM me, or talk to me over the chat when I'm on.

Some people believe atheists hate God. I want to let you know that I do not hate God, I simply don't believe in him. I did not say to myself, "I really hate God, I'm going to stop believing in him." Truth be told, I felt horrible when I admitted to myself that I was an atheist. I honestly wanted to believe God existed. But, to me, choosing to believe in God would be like choosing to believe something you know isn't true. I told myself God was real, but deep down, I didn't believe it. The day I realized I was an atheist was the day I stopped lying to myself. Some of you may feel like I'm lying to myself now, that I'm telling myself God doesn't exist when I know he does, but that's not true. I sincerely do not believe he exists.

Even though there isn't a god in my life, there is meaning to it. My belief in God may be gone, but my love for other people is still strong, and growing stronger all the time. It is the love of others that gives my life meaning. Recently, a teenager said he was going to dump his girlfriend because he realized he was loving her more than he loves God. It breaks my heart to hear this, because I believe this is the amount of love we should all hold for one another (though many of you will disagree).

I follow what is known as the non-coercion principle. I also support the free market as well as property rights. In short...
I'm a libertarian.

~<*>~~<*>~~<*>~

I normally wouldn't make a big deal about being an atheist, but this being a Christian forum, all of you deserve to know. As I said before, I'm not here to convert anyone to atheism, only to observe and to help out where I can. My advice may come from an atheist perspective, but I will never ask anyone here to sacrifice their belief in God to solve their problems.

Its great that you decided to introduce yourself. At 23 or 90, things can always change...so I will join the many here who pray that you will understand the Truth and form a relationship with the risen Christ. I think i do find it a little difficult that you choose a Christian forum in which to tell your views, the trouble with this for me is that many who come here assume posts are from Christians...and its not hard to see the confusion that can result. However, of course you have a right to be here, but you do need to be aware of how challenging it could be, after all, the things of God are foolishness to those who do not believe, so it will do us all good to learn patience as we discuss and share. Lastly, i do not believe you are an atheist , agnostic? yes, but you can no more prove to me God does not exist....than I can apparently 'prove' to you he does God Bless you. <><

 

[Outsider]

Its great that you decided to introduce yourself. At 23 or 90, things can always change...so I will join the many here who pray that you will understand the Truth and form a relationship with the risen Christ. I think i do find it a little difficult that you choose a Christian forum in which to tell your views, the trouble with this for me is that many who come here assume posts are from Christians...and its not hard to see the confusion that can result. However, of course you have a right to be here, but you do need to be aware of how challenging it could be, after all, the things of God are foolishness to those who do not believe, so it will do us all good to learn patience as we discuss and share. Lastly, i do not believe you are an atheist , agnostic? yes, but you can no more prove to me God does not exist....than I can apparently 'prove' to you he does God Bless you. <><

As I said before, part of the reason I'm here is so I can learn. I'm not going to offer spiritual advice, but more... earthly advice. For example, if two people are having relationship problems, I'll avoid telling them to pray, and I'll advise that they talk to each other. Hopefully, my advice will help them. If the couple needs spiritual help, there will be plenty of other people who will provide it. I will give advice that may seem to contradict their views if I honestly believe they're going to hurt themselves. If someone says they are having heart problems, but they're going to pray for God to heal them instead of going to see a doctor, I will intervene and tell them they should see the doctor and there is no reason for them to not ask for the help of God and another human being.

Lastly, i do not believe you are an atheist , agnostic? yes, but you can no more prove to me God does not exist....than I can apparently 'prove' to you he does

Well, a gnostic-atheist isn't a person who knows God doesn't exist, he's a person who claims that he knows God doesn't exist.

Gnostic-Atheist: A person who believes there is evidence that can prove, without a doubt, that there are no gods.

Agnostic-Atheist: A person who believes there isn't enough evidence to prove a higher power, therefore theynot believe in any gods. In a nutshell, "I don't know, for a fact, that there isn't a god, but the chances are so unlikely that I don't think there is a god."

Agnostic-Theist: A person who believes there isn't enough evidence to disprove a higher power, therefore they believe in a god. In a nutshell, "I don't know, for a fact, that there is a god, but I believe the odds of him existing are pretty good."

Gnostic-Theist: A person who believes there is enough evidence to prove, without a doubt, that a god does exist.

I am an agnostic-atheist (most atheists are agnostic).

That's the "technically correct" way to use the word agnostic, and it's the way I prefer to use the word because it's a little more in depth. Though, when people consider themselves or others to be agnostic, I understand that they often refer to a person who is "undecided either which way", which is okay too.

Outsider, can I ask what your "religious" history is? It sounds like you grew up in some religion.

I don't have the time to do so at this moment, but I'll do so at a later time.

 

[FAITHFULGILLIAN]

Libertarianism is really just a celebration of dog-eat-dog selfishness. Why should anyone believe in it, unless of course they thought it would benefit them personally?

 

[Grey]

Libertarianism is really just a celebration of dog-eat-dog selfishness. Why should anyone believe in it, unless of course they thought it would benefit them personally?

The fewer things the government controls in your life the better I suppose? Though I'm not I can certainly see and understand the viewpoint.

 

[FAITHFULGILLIAN]

The fewer things the government controls in your life the better I suppose? Though I'm not I can certainly see and understand the viewpoint.

So No police force? No obligatory education system?

 

[Outsider]

Libertarianism is really just a celebration of dog-eat-dog selfishness.

Selfishness? Capitalism is the ultimate system of cooperation! Sure, goods might not be handed to you for free, but how can society thrive if everyone wants to obtain without putting forth their own fair share of work?

And what is selfishness? The idea that we want goods bad enough to the extent where we will trade labor with one another to obtain the goods we want? Isn't that a good thing?

If you work at a restaurant to obtain money, you're trading your labor for the owner's money. You and the owner are working together (with the rest of the staff) to provide good and affordable food to other people! They trade the money they worked for the food prepared by the restaurant. It's a whole system of cooperation! A society in which a government promises to provide everything to the people for free is a society in which people slack off.

Of course, there is a lot more than that. We're just scratching the surface. There are thousands and thousands of pages dedicated to explaining capitalism and how it actually works.

That pencil that sits in front of you, it came from the free market, the "selfish" market. But do you know how much cooperation it took to create it? Everyone worked for themselves, sure, but the only way they could profit was to trade! But don't take my word for it.

If you want to learn about economics, Economics In One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt is a wonderful book to start you off.

The problem with our current economy is that we live under a corporatist system. Sure, there's a lot of free market capitalism at work, but it's not the idea capitalist system. But, this is more advanced stuff. I'll get into it more at a later time.

 

[Outsider]

So No police force? No obligatory education system?

Libertarianism =/= Anarcho-Capitalism

Government will still exist, but it will play a different role. Police will still exist, because the government will deal with protecting people and their private property. The government will still have court systems and such as well.

Libertarians often disagree with what the best education system would be. However, libertarians believe Charter schools would be the fairest compromise for today's generation. There's no reason for education to be as expensive as it is today. However, the price of education is artificially inflated due to government involvement.

Education isn't free, it comes from taxes.

The reason high taxation works in other countries is that people end up paying for their needs one way or another. Instead of buying a good with their own cash, they give their cash to the government to buy said good for them. It's less efficient, but it still works. Libertarians want to let people keep their taxes and buy the goods themselves so they actually have the CHOICE as to what they buy.

 

[Daphy_D]

I'd rather TRY to forcefully drag someone into believing in God by forcefully feeding them the gospel of God while they are kicking and screaming than just say "oh well you'll believe some day" knowing that that might never happen.

*JUST SAYING*

 

[FAITHFULGILLIAN]

Selfishness? Capitalism is the ultimate system of cooperation! Sure, goods might not be handed to you for free, but how can society thrive if everyone wants to obtain without putting forth their own fair share of work?

And what is selfishness? The idea that we want goods bad enough to the extent where we will trade labor with one another to obtain the goods we want? Isn't that a good thing?

If you work at a restaurant to obtain money, you're trading your labor for the owner's money. You and the owner are working together (with the rest of the staff) to provide good and affordable food to other people! They trade the money they worked for the food prepared by the restaurant. It's a whole system of cooperation! A society in which a government promises to provide everything to the people for free is a society in which people slack off.

Of course, there is a lot more than that. We're just scratching the surface. There are thousands and thousands of pages dedicated to explaining capitalism and how it actually works.

That pencil that sits in front of you, it came from the free market, the "selfish" market. But do you know how much cooperation it took to create it? Everyone worked for themselves, sure, but the only way they could profit was to trade! But don't take my word for it.

If you want to learn about economics, Economics In One Lesson by Henry Hazlitt is a wonderful book to start you off.

The problem with our current economy is that we live under a corporatist system. Sure, there's a lot of free market capitalism at work, but it's not the idea capitalist system. But, this is more advanced stuff. I'll get into it more at a later time.

I have studied economics, enough to recognise that the free market is not appropriate in all instances and even where it is , it requires oversight and regulation. I think having rejected God, you have decided to worship Mammon instead.

 

[Outsider]

I have studied economics, enough to recognise that the free market is not appropriate in all instances and even where it is , it requires oversight and regulation. I think having rejected God, you have decided to worship Mammon instead.

You should understand that less regulation does not mean less accountability.

I believe in regulation, but I would prefer to find alternative means to achieve regulation rather than use government. Some government regulations aren't that bad. However, the reason it's getting harder and harder for people to open up new businesses is because so many regulations are way too overbearing and unrealistic.

Many government regulations that exist are redundant. For example, businesses must be handicap accessible. Before the law was passed, most businesses were already handicapped accessible, or on their way to becoming handicapped accessible. But the government jumped in and added the law, then claim that the only reason businesses are accessible to handicapped people is because the law was put in place. Now, there are instances where small mom and pop shops are closed down because they don't meet this criteria, and to meet it would require them to spend way too much money. For bigger businesses it isn't as much of a problem, but we should let everyone have the chance to sell goods in the free market, not just the giant corporations who can afford to meet overbearing regulations.

 

[Grey]

So No police force? No obligatory education system?

Where did I say that -.-

 

[FAITHFULGILLIAN]

Where did I say that -.-

You did day that libertarianism held that the fewer things .government controlled he better. The logical extension of that idea is that we would best off with no Government at all..

 

[hattiebod]

I'd rather TRY to forcefully drag someone into believing in God by forcefully feeding them the gospel of God while they are kicking and screaming than just say "oh well you'll believe some day" knowing that that might never happen.

*JUST SAYING*

Many will run a mile.... we need to be gentle...chaos, anger & descent are not of God. Most of all we need to remember its not us, its not our job to 'convert'. God is the creator & the sustainer of our faith. There is more than one way to 'give the gospel' and we can fully rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the best way in any given situation, if we are in tune with Him. God Bless you, <><

 

[Outsider]

Anyway, someone asked me for my religious history a few posts back. I've been thinking about how much detail I should go into. Whether I should give a general idea of how I became an atheist or try to collect all the reasons I became one. I decided I can always go into more depth later, I'm going to keep it fairly simple.

I didn't go to church on Sundays with my family, we weren't very religious. I still ended up going to Catholic school from K - 8th grade. I was never baptized, but almost every one of my classmates were. In religion class our teacher would tell us that we must be baptized to go to heaven. Someone would always ask, "What about other Christians who worship God but don't believe in baptism, or people who live a good life but never heard of God before?" Our religion teacher would say that God would make exceptions for these people. I realized, the only way for me to burn in hell for not being baptized is to worship God with the Catholic belief. I decided I wasn't Catholic, just a regular Christian. I held my own belief, surely God wouldn't punish me for not being baptized.

Certain parts of the Catholic church seemed utterly stupid. For example, why were we required to talk to a priest for our sins to be forgiven? God is in all of us, we can pray to him directly, to suggest he will only forgive us if a priest asks for his forgiveness was an absolutely rubbish idea.

Eventually, I stopped believing in God and Jesus of the bible. I thought to myself, "Christians talk about how God answers their prayers, this is what makes them believers. If this is the case, then why do other people continue to pray to their own Gods? Surely they must feel their prayers are answered as well." I believed in a God that was beyond any humanly religion, one that didn't care to be known or worshiped, but only wanted us to treat each other in kindness.

In grade school, I was taught that how we treated others is how we treated God. If we gave a person food to eat, it would be like giving God food to eat. If we stole from someone, it would be like stealing from God. This became the center of my belief system. I believed that whatever higher power lived through us, and therefore we only had to do good by other people for God to be happy.

Eventually, my grandma was invited to go to church on Sunday by a friend, and I went with her. The pastor said, "What you do unto others is not what you do unto God, but rather, what you do unto God is what you do unto others." Hearing those words made me sick, and an old lady behind me whispered, "amen". I almost wanted to shout! Maybe that's why they held bible study before mass, so nobody could tear pastors a new one for stupid stuff they say. I may not have believed in the same God as him, but I knew the advice he gave was bogus! Praying to God for the hungry to be fed is NOT the same as giving food to the hungry. Living a life free of sin for God wasn't the same as living a life free of sin for others (and honestly, how would that help them?). What he said was so selfish, it made me realize that church might actually convince people to pray instead of act.

Down the road, I read a quote. I can't remember who said it, or what the exact words were, but it changed me. "Man often creates God in his own image." I realized, everything I believed, they were my own ideas of what God SHOULD be. If I didn't agree with a religion, I would simply believe otherwise.

Sure, I could have gone back and believed in God of the bible. But the reason I stopped believing in the bible in the first place is because it didn't make any sense to me.

After living as an undecided agnostic, I decided I had to make a choice. Either I believed, or I didn't believe. At one moment I would pray to God to help me believe in him again, at the next moment I would put on my "atheist glasses" and look at the world as if there was no God. I kept going back and fourth. I would pray, then I would "pretend" I was an atheist and try to see what it felt like to not believe in any gods. I would take the glasses off, and later the next night I would repeat the process, each time wearing the atheist glasses a little longer than before. Finally, I tried to take my atheist glasses off, and I realized I wasn't wearing them. The way I viewed the world, it truly was through atheist eyes. (I apologize for getting metaphorical here).

I used to believe I would die, and my soul would exist in heaven. Admitting there was no god made me admit that I will eventually die. It made me sad, and it depressed me. I would stay up on the internet all night because I couldn't bear lay in bed alone with my thoughts, alone with my fear of death. But eventually, I accepted it. I believe I'm going to die. I don't think there's going to be an afterlife, even though I wish there would be one. But I learned to appreciate what limited amount of time I have on this earth. I learned that even though I feared death, I still feared the death of my loved ones more. If I have to, I would put my own life in danger if it meant prolonging the life of someone else I loved.

So that's the short version of how I became an atheist.

 

[gad22]

Jesus Loves you Outsider!!

 

[gad22]

Jesus Loves me!!
Thats the truth!
And as to why Im here?
well, to tell you that He loves you too

God bless you!

 

[Daphy_D]

Many will run a mile.... we need to be gentle...chaos, anger & descent are not of God. Most of all we need to remember its not us, its not our job to 'convert'. God is the creator & the sustainer of our faith. There is more than one way to 'give the gospel' and we can fully rely on the Holy Spirit to reveal the best way in any given situation, if we are in tune with Him. God Bless you, <><

Hmmmm you're probably right...but it just fraustrates me seeing people take the wrong path and not being able to do anything.Maybe i should learn to be more patient

 

[PrettyBelle]

Once again I could say the same thing about you, you haven't shown any evidence to validate your claim over own disbelief.

And on that day when the truth is relieved when each one of us dies and likely sees that nothing is there all will be well acquainted with the sham.

I was quoting scripture actually. I have faith in the unseen. I don't have to see proof of my heart in my body as I cannot see it with my eye in a mirror. But I know I have a heart because I can feel it beating in my chest.

I can't see God with my eyes but I feel his presence in my heart. I feel the tingling of every inch of my body when the holy spirit washes over me as I pray or sing to the Lord. It's something that is experienced.

Now of course this is something you can never put a microscope on and see, or place the elements in a beaker to see chemical reactions. There is proof all around you but you refuse to see it.

God can't be explained in these terms. So there will never be enough proof in the world for you to believe. Only by truly experiencing what is unseen and taking a leap of faith is how you find God. I'm sorry I don't have the proof you need to believe. Only God does.

I will pray that God shows you the evidence you need to usher Him into your heart.

 

[Grey]

I was quoting scripture actually. I have faith in the unseen. I don't have to see proof of my heart in my body as I cannot see it with my eye in a mirror. But I know I have a heart because I can feel it beating in my chest.

I can't see God with my eyes but I feel his presence in my heart. I feel the tingling of every inch of my body when the holy spirit washes over me as I pray or sing to the Lord. It's something that is experienced.

Now of course this is something you can never put a microscope on and see, or place the elements in a beaker to see chemical reactions. There is proof all around you but you refuse to see it.

God can't be explained in these terms. So there will never be enough proof in the world for you to believe. Only by truly experiencing what is unseen and taking a leap of faith is how you find God. I'm sorry I don't have the proof you need to believe. Only God does.

I will pray that God shows you the evidence you need to usher Him into your heart.

My Muslim friends tell me exactly the same thing.

 

[nonplasticcholyman]

Well, I am an outsider too. Because I believe a different version of scripture to the common,I am poo pooed and attacked and ridiculed daily.Even though what I have been studying,reading,viewing is supposedly the "truth" told, and the original,unchanged,uncorrupted scriptures from over 2000 years ago. And deemed by some Jewish scholars as the root source to the scriptures.

The Ancient Church of the East,that emerged out of Jerusalem at the end of the Apostolic Age, referred to it as Leeshana Ateeqah or the "old tongue." It is still used in the liturgy, although it is explained in the modern vernacular by the priests and deacons during church services.

There are a few priests and bishops that know how to read it. It comes in many dialects of the Middle East and Africa of the Eastern Churches or Eastern rites of the Catholic and Orthodox churches. Nobody speaks this language anymore -- not the ancient form of it. Those who claim to speak Aramaic, are only speaking modern versions of the language, just as nobody speaks Old English or even Middle English anymore. Nobody speaks Koine Greek, Old Norse, or Old German, and so on.