There is no such thing as Sola Scriptura
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O
Did you miss the part where I said " we are encouraged to pray for eachother - BUT - we pray to God for one another;"
This means that even when we pray for each other, we pray to God; not to another person to pray to God for us.
There is simply no point;
Go to the Father it's plain and simple
Christ is the mediator and Christ and the Father are one.
Why do you need someone else to do it for you?
This means that even when we pray for each other, we pray to God; not to another person to pray to God for us.
There is simply no point;
Go to the Father it's plain and simple
Christ is the mediator and Christ and the Father are one.Why do you need someone else to do it for you?
Asking Mary or another saint tor pray for you is IDOLATRY?
Since when?
Do you even know what Idolatry is? It is the worship of somebody or something other than God.
As Catholics, we worship God and God ALONE. Apparently, you weren't a very faithful or knowledgeable Catholic if this is what you actually believed.
The word, "pray", in its most rudimentary form means to ask, to entreat to supplicate. We pray to God in worship, thanksgiving and supplication. We ask those in heaven to pray FOR us to God.
Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in heaven bringing our prayers before God and Rev. 8:3-4 speaks of the Angels in heaven doing the same thing.
Since when?
Do you even know what Idolatry is? It is the worship of somebody or something other than God.
As Catholics, we worship God and God ALONE. Apparently, you weren't a very faithful or knowledgeable Catholic if this is what you actually believed.
The word, "pray", in its most rudimentary form means to ask, to entreat to supplicate. We pray to God in worship, thanksgiving and supplication. We ask those in heaven to pray FOR us to God.
Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in heaven bringing our prayers before God and Rev. 8:3-4 speaks of the Angels in heaven doing the same thing.
Did you miss the part where I said " we are encouraged to pray for eachother - BUT - we pray to God for one another;"
This means that even when we pray for each other, we pray to God; not to another person to pray to God for us.
There is simply no point;
Go to the Father it's plain and simple Christ is the mediator and Christ and the Father are one.
Why do you need someone else to do it for you?
This means that even when we pray for each other, we pray to God; not to another person to pray to God for us.
There is simply no point;
Go to the Father it's plain and simple
Christ is the mediator and Christ and the Father are one.Why do you need someone else to do it for you?
As I just stated in the post before this one - word, "pray", in its most rudimentary form means to ask, to entreat to supplicate. We pray to God in worship, thanksgiving and supplication. We ask those in heaven to pray FOR us to God. Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in heaven bringing our prayers before God and Rev. 8:3-4 speaks of the Angels in heaven doing the same thing.
I don't understand this total rejection of the Body of Christ that you people harbor.
O
I'll repost what I said since you missed it and accused me falsely:
"Even on earth, we are encouraged to pray for one another; but we don't pray to our dead brother's and sisters of Christ do we? No, we pray to God."
I do pray for my brothers and sisters; I just pray to Christ...the Father, because I know he is God, and God hears all our prayers.
In contrast -
Mary is a sinner, she is a mere woman like me, and she can't hear a word of what anyone is praying to her, because she is not God who receives all prayers.
"Even on earth, we are encouraged to pray for one another; but we don't pray to our dead brother's and sisters of Christ do we? No, we pray to God."
I do pray for my brothers and sisters; I just pray to Christ...the Father, because I know he is God, and God hears all our prayers.
In contrast -
Mary is a sinner, she is a mere woman like me, and she can't hear a word of what anyone is praying to her, because she is not God who receives all prayers.
What makes you think she or anybody esle in heaven can't hear us?
Hebrews 12:1 calls them a "great cloud of witnesses". A witness is sopmebody who sees and HEARS things - otherwise they are just paperweights.
Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in heaven bringing our prayers before God and Rev. 8:3-4 speaks of the Angels in heaven doing the same thing.
So much for them not seeing or hearing us . . .
Hebrews 12:1 calls them a "great cloud of witnesses". A witness is sopmebody who sees and HEARS things - otherwise they are just paperweights.
Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in heaven bringing our prayers before God and Rev. 8:3-4 speaks of the Angels in heaven doing the same thing.
So much for them not seeing or hearing us . . .
O
You do understand that these are parables right?
I'm not going to speak on them, because I'm not 100% sure of them.
All that is clear though, is that if God wanted us to pray to other beings outside of himself, it would have been clearly stated; not assumed from the scriptures.
And again, the same book of Revelations says that the dead have not even been judged yet; so how is it that Mary is in heaven or any of the Apostles? How do you know they are the elders or even the angels with the fragrance of prayers as you assume them to be?
How do we even know for a fact what is going on in these passages?
Again, I don't agree with you because the Bible states otherwise; but I admit I'm not sure what's going on in these passages to jumped to assumed conclusions.
If one is to take these verses literal, then that means everything else in Revelations is literal. Plus you have to make sure the prophecy is in line or else it's untrue.
All I know, is that the Bible never says to give prayers to anyone else but God; you can distort it all you want but it's not like the Catholic church isn't well - known for it's perversions to the gospel anyway.
I'm not going to speak on them, because I'm not 100% sure of them.
All that is clear though, is that if God wanted us to pray to other beings outside of himself, it would have been clearly stated; not assumed from the scriptures.
And again, the same book of Revelations says that the dead have not even been judged yet; so how is it that Mary is in heaven or any of the Apostles? How do you know they are the elders or even the angels with the fragrance of prayers as you assume them to be?
How do we even know for a fact what is going on in these passages?
Again, I don't agree with you because the Bible states otherwise; but I admit I'm not sure what's going on in these passages to jumped to assumed conclusions.
If one is to take these verses literal, then that means everything else in Revelations is literal. Plus you have to make sure the prophecy is in line or else it's untrue.
All I know, is that the Bible never says to give prayers to anyone else but God; you can distort it all you want but it's not like the Catholic church isn't well - known for it's perversions to the gospel anyway.
O
Mary isn't in heaven though; the dead have not been judged yet.
She is a mere woman, on earth and in spirit. She was a sinner on earth, or else she never would have been born on the earth.
The Son of man came to seek and save the sinners - not the righteous hun.
Mary was not perfect, she was not sinless, and all she was was a vessel for which Christ could be brought into the world.
Why do you " hail her," and why do you bow down to statues of her? Why is she idolized?
I do believe Mary will enter heaven, but according to scripture, no one has been judged for it yet.
Again I say, how do you even know Mary has received your prayers?
She is a mere woman, on earth and in spirit. She was a sinner on earth, or else she never would have been born on the earth.
The Son of man came to seek and save the sinners - not the righteous hun.
Mary was not perfect, she was not sinless, and all she was was a vessel for which Christ could be brought into the world.
Why do you " hail her," and why do you bow down to statues of her? Why is she idolized?
I do believe Mary will enter heaven, but according to scripture, no one has been judged for it yet.
Again I say, how do you even know Mary has received your prayers?
Did you bother to read posts 183 and 184? I will repost since it appears that you didn't:
The word, "pray", in its most rudimentary form means to ask, to entreat to supplicate. We pray to God in worship, thanksgiving and supplication. We ask those in heaven to pray FOR us to God.
We ASK (pray to) the saints to pray FOR us.
We WORSHIP (pray to) God alone.
As for The Book of Revelation being a "Parable" - I'm sorry that you feel that way but it's not. It is highly symbolic but that doesn't make it a parable.
Rev. 21:27 says that nothing unclean can enter heaven.
Is that a parable?
Rev. 22:13 says that Jesus is the alpha and the omega - the beginning and the end.
Is that a parable?
Rev. 21:2 says that God will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed.
Is that a parable?
No - you won't address Rev. 5:8 and 8:3-4 because you can't.
Plain and simple.
The word, "pray", in its most rudimentary form means to ask, to entreat to supplicate. We pray to God in worship, thanksgiving and supplication. We ask those in heaven to pray FOR us to God.
We ASK (pray to) the saints to pray FOR us.
We WORSHIP (pray to) God alone.
As for The Book of Revelation being a "Parable" - I'm sorry that you feel that way but it's not. It is highly symbolic but that doesn't make it a parable.
Rev. 21:27 says that nothing unclean can enter heaven.
Is that a parable?
Rev. 22:13 says that Jesus is the alpha and the omega - the beginning and the end.
Is that a parable?
Rev. 21:2 says that God will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death' or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed.
Is that a parable?
No - you won't address Rev. 5:8 and 8:3-4 because you can't.
Plain and simple.
WRONG.
Hebrews 9:27 tells us: "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment."
There is the Particular Judgement and the General Judgement of all.
Secondly, the Church has never taught that Mary wasn't saved. One of the oldest allegories in Christendom explains her salvation like this:
Wherease we all fall into the mud of Original Sin and pulled out of the mud by the saving work of Christ - Mary was kept from falling into the mud to begin with.
In the end - she was SAVED by her Son's sacrifice.
Finally, how do we know that Mary has heard our prayers (requests for prayer)? Because we trust in GOD.
Hebrews 9:27 tells us: "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment."
There is the Particular Judgement and the General Judgement of all.
Secondly, the Church has never taught that Mary wasn't saved. One of the oldest allegories in Christendom explains her salvation like this:
Wherease we all fall into the mud of Original Sin and pulled out of the mud by the saving work of Christ - Mary was kept from falling into the mud to begin with.
In the end - she was SAVED by her Son's sacrifice.
Finally, how do we know that Mary has heard our prayers (requests for prayer)? Because we trust in GOD.
O
It is " highly symbolic;" meaning it is a parable lol. If it wasn't symbolic at all then it wouldn't be one. I say it may be because there are cases in which the altar on earth is approached in the same manner as the altar of heaven.
I'm not sure; that's why I'm not assuming as you are.
The other verses you said, obviously they are not - but that's because of the context. It's just like how people believe the plagues described in Revelations are all physical plagues;
That's why I said you have to pay attention to the prophecy in order to be sure. I'm not sure; so I can't address Rev 5:8 and 8: 3-4, but how are you so certain you can?
I'd be more inclined to believe what the Catholic church teaches if it wasn't riddled with corrupted teaching and abolishments of God's law.
And why can't you answer my other inquiries?
Why do you " hail " Mary? Why do you bow down before her? Why do you idolize this woman?
I get the assumption of praying to her, but you do not construct statues and idols of people you merely pray too; you do that to things you worship in the church.
And yeah, your definition of prayer is correct, but then, what power does it have if you aren't praying to God? Why not pray to God is a better question.
My best friend is Catholic and she said the same thing about those assumed to be in Heaven being closer to God, so somehow that makes their prayer more " worthy" than ours -
But, the Apostles didn't pray to anyone but God; Jesus himself didn't pray to anyone but Father. So then, if Jesus was the Christian example, why is Mary being bowed down to and prayed to?
Even Christ when asked about his physical mother said:
Matthew 12:50
" For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother sister and mother."
Is praying to Mary and idolizing her the will of God?
You can twist any scripture you'd like to defend it, but the big picture is that you bow down before this idolized woman, which violates the first commandment; you cast idols of her and put them in high places in your church, when the 2nd commandment says clearly, not to cast an idol of anything on earth, or in heaven; Mary was on earth - the idol was casted of her earthly form; you assume she's in heaven - again an idol casted of her form.
What power does this woman have...this sinner born on this sinful earth, that you must bow before her and forsake the teachings of Christ?
I'm not sure; that's why I'm not assuming as you are.
The other verses you said, obviously they are not - but that's because of the context. It's just like how people believe the plagues described in Revelations are all physical plagues;
That's why I said you have to pay attention to the prophecy in order to be sure. I'm not sure; so I can't address Rev 5:8 and 8: 3-4, but how are you so certain you can?
I'd be more inclined to believe what the Catholic church teaches if it wasn't riddled with corrupted teaching and abolishments of God's law.
And why can't you answer my other inquiries?
Why do you " hail " Mary? Why do you bow down before her? Why do you idolize this woman?
I get the assumption of praying to her, but you do not construct statues and idols of people you merely pray too; you do that to things you worship in the church.
And yeah, your definition of prayer is correct, but then, what power does it have if you aren't praying to God? Why not pray to God is a better question.
My best friend is Catholic and she said the same thing about those assumed to be in Heaven being closer to God, so somehow that makes their prayer more " worthy" than ours -
But, the Apostles didn't pray to anyone but God; Jesus himself didn't pray to anyone but Father. So then, if Jesus was the Christian example, why is Mary being bowed down to and prayed to?
Even Christ when asked about his physical mother said:
Matthew 12:50
" For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother sister and mother."
Is praying to Mary and idolizing her the will of God?
You can twist any scripture you'd like to defend it, but the big picture is that you bow down before this idolized woman, which violates the first commandment; you cast idols of her and put them in high places in your church, when the 2nd commandment says clearly, not to cast an idol of anything on earth, or in heaven; Mary was on earth - the idol was casted of her earthly form; you assume she's in heaven - again an idol casted of her form.
What power does this woman have...this sinner born on this sinful earth, that you must bow before her and forsake the teachings of Christ?
O
Yes we face judgement after death - BUT - the dead haven't been judged yet so.
I never said Mary wasn't saved; heck I'm saved too. What of it?
All I said is that she was a sinner; or else she wouldn't have been on the Earth to be redeemed by Christ now would she?
LOL MARY HAS ORIGINAL SIN. Or else she wouldn't of had to be saved. See the contradiction you just made?
All the angel said was that she was blessed for conceiving and that was it. Just like the Bible says we are blessed if we hear the words of prophecy of the Bible. Doesn't mean we weren't born without original sin.
You trust in God...so you pray to someone else to give your prayers to God?
Just pray to God if you trust him so much; what grounds does she have to mediate for you - when Christ, God in the flesh, Father himself, said that he was the mediator?
What...is Mary a better mediator than Christ?
I never said Mary wasn't saved; heck I'm saved too. What of it?
All I said is that she was a sinner; or else she wouldn't have been on the Earth to be redeemed by Christ now would she?
LOL MARY HAS ORIGINAL SIN. Or else she wouldn't of had to be saved. See the contradiction you just made?
All the angel said was that she was blessed for conceiving and that was it. Just like the Bible says we are blessed if we hear the words of prophecy of the Bible. Doesn't mean we weren't born without original sin.
You trust in God...so you pray to someone else to give your prayers to God?
Just pray to God if you trust him so much; what grounds does she have to mediate for you - when Christ, God in the flesh, Father himself, said that he was the mediator?
What...is Mary a better mediator than Christ?
That's a little different.
What does "might eonian" mean to you, ChristReconcilesAll?
And did you "pray" to the statue of a dead person? If so, how did you pray?
What did you read that gave you "enough to know that Catholic Church tradition does not conform to the word of God" ?
I too left the church as a young man. Your story intrigues me. But for me it was not so much what I 'read'. It was more what I experienced... or stopped experiencing....
What does "might eonian" mean to you, ChristReconcilesAll?
And did you "pray" to the statue of a dead person? If so, how did you pray?
What did you read that gave you "enough to know that Catholic Church tradition does not conform to the word of God" ?
I too left the church as a young man. Your story intrigues me. But for me it was not so much what I 'read'. It was more what I experienced... or stopped experiencing....
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C
This started out as a reply to the message about the mud thing, but I've gotten distracted several times caring for my handicapped sister. So I'm also answering the question to me about what I read that changed my mind. It was scripture, brother, and realizing what I had also experienced in the church of Rome did not conform to scripture. I'm sorry for the length of this, but I just kept thinking of something else to say. I better post it before it gets even longer. PS: I just remembered you asked another question about "might eonian." The word "might" is power, right? And "eonian" refers to the eons. Here is a screenshot of the eons for you.
The rest of this started as a reply to our Catholic brother, but there's some good stuff for everybody.
I can see there's not much point in discussing this with you since you prefer Roman church doctrine to the word of God, but here's a few words for you anyway. I want you to know that I mean the same thing when I say "scripture" or "the word of God."
There's nothing in scripture about "the mud of original sin" or Mary being kept from falling into it. Mary was blessed to be the mother of the only begotten son of God, but she died and is still dead, not alive in heaven. I know this because the word of God says so, and I believe it. So praying to her or asking her to pray for you is a waste of time. You should pray to God. Why wouldn't you want to pray to God instead anyway?
I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church. So don't tell me I don't know what's up with it. It does not conform to the inspired written word of God. The church even has a history of torturing and killing people just for reading scripture, and the church still considers it heresy to believe scripture correctly translated rather than the doctrine of church tradition. But that's another story.
What you're saying is the word of God is wrong where it says only Christ has been immortalized.
"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
The word of God says the dead are reposing.
Death is like sleep.
"He said these things, and after this He is saying to them, 'Lazarus, our friend, has found repose, but I am going that I should be awakening him out of sleep.' The disciples, then, said to Him, 'Lord, if he has repose, he shall be saved.' Now Jesus had made a declaration concerning his death, yet they suppose that He is saying it concerning the repose of sleep. Jesus, then, said to them with boldness then, 'Lazarus died.'" (John 11:11-14)
"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from Satan's lie in the garden of Eden. "And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis3:4)
The soul is the conscious sensation resulting from the combination of the body and spirit.
"And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)
Death is a return.
"I know that You are turning me back to death, To that house appointed for all the living." (Job 30:23)
The body returns to the soil.
"In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till you return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning." (Genesis 3:19)
The spirit returns to God.
"And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
And the soul returns to the "unseen."
"The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim." (Psalms 9:17)
"For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:27)
"perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay" (Acts 2:31)
Scripture says the soul dies.
"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)
So the question is, do you believe the church or the word of God about the dead being dead and only Christ being immortalized and in heaven with God? That's a rhetorical question because we already know the answer.
I want you to know that I'm not coming from a Protestant position because I have a beef with their doctrine too. I have experienced both churches. What I said earlier about the church torturing and killing people for reading scripture goes for both churches. Neither church wanted the common people to learn the truth in scripture. When the church couldn't suppress scripture by killing people with fire, it changed scripture to terrorize people with torture in fire forever after they die. I'm considered a heretic by both churches because of my unorthodox belief, but heresy is simply a belief that does not conform to church doctrine. I don't conform to church doctrine because church doctrine does not conform to the word of God. But that's another story. This thread is a discussion about "sola scriptura" which I've said I don't care about because the Latin manuscripts have been corrupted to conform to church doctrine. I do however believe scripture suffices if it is from Hebrew or Greek manuscripts concordantly literally translated into English for those of us who don't understand the ancient languages. That being said, I consider you, my Catholic brother, a Christian as well as my Protestant brothers and sisters, but I don't believe some doctrine of both of your churches. I think we should all come to an understanding that we are family and love each other while we are discussing our differences in doctrine. If somebody believes Christ died for the sins of the whole world and was roused from the dead, then that person is a Christian regardless of other excess baggage the church adds to the game. Don't you know Satan is happy we're all arguing about church doctrine? Until we all use a common reference to work from, we're not going to get any closer to agreeing on doctrine. For me that is a concordant literal translation of scripture, not any church tradition. God bless all my Christian brothers and sisters, Catholic, Protestant, and non-church folks like me too.
PS: If you're wondering why I'm considered a heretic by both churches, it's because I believe this.
"Hell" is an Old English word translated from the Greek "hades," literally meaning "unseen," which refers to the "unseen" state of a dead soul, but the meaning of "hell" has been distorted by intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" in common bibles. Those who support the corrupt translations say Christ was speaking figuratively of "Gehenna" as a place where unbelievers are tortured in fire forever after they die. "Gehenna" is actually the ravine of Hinnom outside Jerusalem, used by the ancient Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god, and later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon (Isaiah 66:23,24). Mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" has propagated the myth of "hell fire." Failing to suppress scripture by killing people with fire, the church changed scripture to deceive people with fear of torture in fire forever, but even the corrupt translations of scripture used by the church say all are reconciled through Christ.
So the question is, do you believe the church or the word of God?
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
“Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.” (1Corinthians 15:20-28)
"out of Him and through Him and for Him is all" (Romans 11:36)
The rest of this started as a reply to our Catholic brother, but there's some good stuff for everybody.
I can see there's not much point in discussing this with you since you prefer Roman church doctrine to the word of God, but here's a few words for you anyway. I want you to know that I mean the same thing when I say "scripture" or "the word of God."
There's nothing in scripture about "the mud of original sin" or Mary being kept from falling into it. Mary was blessed to be the mother of the only begotten son of God, but she died and is still dead, not alive in heaven. I know this because the word of God says so, and I believe it. So praying to her or asking her to pray for you is a waste of time. You should pray to God. Why wouldn't you want to pray to God instead anyway?
I was raised in the Roman Catholic Church. So don't tell me I don't know what's up with it. It does not conform to the inspired written word of God. The church even has a history of torturing and killing people just for reading scripture, and the church still considers it heresy to believe scripture correctly translated rather than the doctrine of church tradition. But that's another story.
What you're saying is the word of God is wrong where it says only Christ has been immortalized.
"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)
"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)
The word of God says the dead are reposing.
Death is like sleep.
"He said these things, and after this He is saying to them, 'Lazarus, our friend, has found repose, but I am going that I should be awakening him out of sleep.' The disciples, then, said to Him, 'Lord, if he has repose, he shall be saved.' Now Jesus had made a declaration concerning his death, yet they suppose that He is saying it concerning the repose of sleep. Jesus, then, said to them with boldness then, 'Lazarus died.'" (John 11:11-14)
"Now we do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are reposing, lest you may sorrow according as the rest, also, who have no expectation. For, if we are believing that Jesus died and rose, thus also, those who are put to repose, will God, through Jesus, lead forth together with Him. For this we are saying to you by the word of the Lord, that we, the living, who are surviving to the presence of the Lord, should by no means outstrip those who are put to repose, for the Lord Himself will be descending from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the Chief Messenger, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall be rising first. Thereupon we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. And thus shall we always be together with the Lord. So that, console one another with these words." (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17)
Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from Satan's lie in the garden of Eden. "And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis3:4)
The soul is the conscious sensation resulting from the combination of the body and spirit.
"And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)
Death is a return.
"I know that You are turning me back to death, To that house appointed for all the living." (Job 30:23)
The body returns to the soil.
"In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till you return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning." (Genesis 3:19)
The spirit returns to God.
"And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
And the soul returns to the "unseen."
"The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim." (Psalms 9:17)
"For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:27)
"perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay" (Acts 2:31)
Scripture says the soul dies.
"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)
"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)
So the question is, do you believe the church or the word of God about the dead being dead and only Christ being immortalized and in heaven with God? That's a rhetorical question because we already know the answer.
I want you to know that I'm not coming from a Protestant position because I have a beef with their doctrine too. I have experienced both churches. What I said earlier about the church torturing and killing people for reading scripture goes for both churches. Neither church wanted the common people to learn the truth in scripture. When the church couldn't suppress scripture by killing people with fire, it changed scripture to terrorize people with torture in fire forever after they die. I'm considered a heretic by both churches because of my unorthodox belief, but heresy is simply a belief that does not conform to church doctrine. I don't conform to church doctrine because church doctrine does not conform to the word of God. But that's another story. This thread is a discussion about "sola scriptura" which I've said I don't care about because the Latin manuscripts have been corrupted to conform to church doctrine. I do however believe scripture suffices if it is from Hebrew or Greek manuscripts concordantly literally translated into English for those of us who don't understand the ancient languages. That being said, I consider you, my Catholic brother, a Christian as well as my Protestant brothers and sisters, but I don't believe some doctrine of both of your churches. I think we should all come to an understanding that we are family and love each other while we are discussing our differences in doctrine. If somebody believes Christ died for the sins of the whole world and was roused from the dead, then that person is a Christian regardless of other excess baggage the church adds to the game. Don't you know Satan is happy we're all arguing about church doctrine? Until we all use a common reference to work from, we're not going to get any closer to agreeing on doctrine. For me that is a concordant literal translation of scripture, not any church tradition. God bless all my Christian brothers and sisters, Catholic, Protestant, and non-church folks like me too.
PS: If you're wondering why I'm considered a heretic by both churches, it's because I believe this.
"Hell" is an Old English word translated from the Greek "hades," literally meaning "unseen," which refers to the "unseen" state of a dead soul, but the meaning of "hell" has been distorted by intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" in common bibles. Those who support the corrupt translations say Christ was speaking figuratively of "Gehenna" as a place where unbelievers are tortured in fire forever after they die. "Gehenna" is actually the ravine of Hinnom outside Jerusalem, used by the ancient Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god, and later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon (Isaiah 66:23,24). Mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" has propagated the myth of "hell fire." Failing to suppress scripture by killing people with fire, the church changed scripture to deceive people with fear of torture in fire forever, but even the corrupt translations of scripture used by the church say all are reconciled through Christ.
So the question is, do you believe the church or the word of God?
"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)
“Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.” (1Corinthians 15:20-28)
"out of Him and through Him and for Him is all" (Romans 11:36)
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PS: I just saw that you asked me if I prayed to statues. When I was a kid in the Catholic Church, it was full of statues, pictures, and medallions of dead folks that were supposed to be prayed to for this and that. There are special "saints" for special purposes. Even the saint thing is different than scripture. It's an official designation by the pope not just a believer like in scripture. The whole church thing is to make everything officially controlled by Rome. It all came from the Roman Empire and is still run like a political state because that is what the Vatican is. If you're Catholic, you're paying taxes (tithing) to Rome. I am free from that system as well as the Protestant system which has it's own corrupt doctrine that it neglected to purge during the Reformation. That being the torture forever in fire of unbelievers which is not in a correct translation of scripture. Neither is the Trinity. God's ultimate plan is to be all in all. That is made possible by Christ's sacrifice. Creation and reconciliation have the same scope.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyUBUG8bmqEFvXPe26iDtyw
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyUBUG8bmqEFvXPe26iDtyw