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LOL
This reminds me of how some guy was ranting about how Atheist are all possessed by the devil or something like that.
Some of them are indeed manipulated - these are those hard core atheist, but then there are atheist whom are more agnostic. They just wanna know for sure; which is totally fine.
What did you really come here for?
This reminds me of how some guy was ranting about how Atheist are all possessed by the devil or something like that.
Some of them are indeed manipulated - these are those hard core atheist, but then there are atheist whom are more agnostic. They just wanna know for sure; which is totally fine.
What did you really come here for?
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Ah.
I just got back into the whole theist thing may be 5 or so months ago.
I just asked a simple question lol, how do we know God is real? I mean, what's the point of following if he doesn't exist ya know?
Of course they waved the Bible in my face which prompted me to roll my eyes and ask, " How do you know that is even true."
Yeah it's true...freakishly true, and I'm not talking about that sugary " God - loves," mashugana that was spewed at me for 16 years of my life before.
You ever studied the prophecy element of the Bible?
I just got back into the whole theist thing may be 5 or so months ago.
I just asked a simple question lol, how do we know God is real? I mean, what's the point of following if he doesn't exist ya know?
Of course they waved the Bible in my face which prompted me to roll my eyes and ask, " How do you know that is even true."
Yeah it's true...freakishly true, and I'm not talking about that sugary " God - loves," mashugana that was spewed at me for 16 years of my life before.
You ever studied the prophecy element of the Bible?
L
I actually have a couple questions along the same vein, though I don't want to seem disrespectful at all. I have no problem whatsoever with christianity and other religions in general, I love studying them in fact! I'm basically just trying to say I don't want any kind of argument, just a friendly discussion. But I've never really gotten a satisfying answer to one question that's really put me off from considering Christianity again.
I'm a Zen Buddhist, and to give a brief background of my tradition for context, we believe in something called "samsara," a cycle of life, death and rebirth. Similar to reincarnation, but not reincarnation per say, but I'll spare you the philosophy. The goal of Buddhism is to liberate oneself from this cycle, achieving "nirvana," which is the cessation of desire. When you reach this state, in my sect (Mahayana), instead of liberating yourself from samsara, you're supposed to stay in the cycle and help liberate others, until everyone has been freed of desire. These people are called Boddhisatvas. In a sense, they are postponing their own "salvation" (I use the term VERY loosely) to help others.
My question is, why does God save only those who believe and follow him? If flawed, imperfect humans are capable of willingly and knowingly making the decision to forsake their own enlightenment to save all of mankind, why does God play favorites? Most responses I get are that we just can't know the ways of God or that our morality doesn't really apply the same way to him, but if God does an action that by most standards is considered questionably moral at best, why does he get a free pass?
Again, I'm not trying to start an argument. Just a discussion. I've been here well over a year, I'm definitely not a troll
I've just never gotten a good answer to this question from a Christian.
I'm a Zen Buddhist, and to give a brief background of my tradition for context, we believe in something called "samsara," a cycle of life, death and rebirth. Similar to reincarnation, but not reincarnation per say, but I'll spare you the philosophy. The goal of Buddhism is to liberate oneself from this cycle, achieving "nirvana," which is the cessation of desire. When you reach this state, in my sect (Mahayana), instead of liberating yourself from samsara, you're supposed to stay in the cycle and help liberate others, until everyone has been freed of desire. These people are called Boddhisatvas. In a sense, they are postponing their own "salvation" (I use the term VERY loosely) to help others.
My question is, why does God save only those who believe and follow him? If flawed, imperfect humans are capable of willingly and knowingly making the decision to forsake their own enlightenment to save all of mankind, why does God play favorites? Most responses I get are that we just can't know the ways of God or that our morality doesn't really apply the same way to him, but if God does an action that by most standards is considered questionably moral at best, why does he get a free pass?
Again, I'm not trying to start an argument. Just a discussion. I've been here well over a year, I'm definitely not a troll
I've just never gotten a good answer to this question from a Christian.
Just as you decided to follow the teachings of your Bodhisattva (enlightenment being) when you believed and became a follower, the same happened to followers of our God.
Our pastors and bishops are similar to Bodhisattva. Christians, also enter a path “Path to Eternal Life” and are born into it. What Buddhist refers to as enlightenment, Christians call glorification. Once glorified (born again) we begin our journey of eternal life and just as a child has to learn and grow so does the “Christian” spiritually. Every born again Christian becomes an “enlightenment being” called ministers.
What your religion calls “Avidyā”; Christians call it “Sin”.
Unlike Zen Buddhism, there is another path that all humans are physically born, the “Path to Eternal Damnation”. This path ends at the “The Lake of Fire”. We believe that all men and women have an opportunity to change and escape “Sin”. Unlike Avidyā, there is no recurring cycle of chances to escape. As a corporal being and living in the present state of (flesh) being, you get one chance to live this life according to the “Path of Eternal Life” or the “Damnation Path”.
Your question “…why does he get a free pass” is an excellent one and deserves an answer.
In the Buddhist view, liberation from “samsara” is possible by following the Buddhist path. In Christianity, our liberation from sin is possible by following the God (Jesus) path.
Our sacred (Holy) scriptures teach Christians that God subjected himself to our level of existence and died a horrible death by rejecting a path of sin that is a repetitive cycle of death through sin. Sin being the carnal desires when men and women seek the pleasures of this life and fixate on self and temporary pleasure experiences that eventually result in suffering, anxiety, dissatisfaction and the actions that accompany these mindsets. If this behavior path continues until physical death, they enter into a spiritual holding place called Hell.
Being both God and Man, Jesus became the ultimate example to all humanity concerning how to live life. He is the perfect example for humanity by living this life under the same conditions and experiencing the same by becoming the very things that He abhorred. From birth to death, Jesus’ example made it possible for us to follow the same “Jesus Path” to eternal life. He also gave his live as a sacrifice (the Crucifixion) for ignorant humanity; thereby, eliminating the “free pass” excuse forever.
The Zen Buddhist view of successful liberation from samsara is nirvana; literally translated as “blowing out” as a person would blow out a candle”; Encyclopedia Britannica, paraphrased.
The Christian faith of successful liberation from sin on all levels of our existence is “raptured out” or glorification of the body to full spirit being; receiving a glorified body; ref. Holy Bible, Rom. 8:20-23; 1 Cor. 15:35-38; Eph. 1:13-14; Phil. 1:6,10; 3:10-11,20-21; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 4:13-18; Tit. 2:11-14
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It sounds as though you didn't have true faith to begin with when you use that sort of phraseology.
The textbook logic is strong with this one.
The Leviticus laws are horrifying, though. I'm actually grateful to have an exchange with someone who has a foundation for what they believe. As much as I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, in all fairness, I'd rather have dialogue with you than someone that has nothing but feelings to exchange or retort with. You're a pretty sharp guy, Grey. I hope my replies don't imply condescension.
The textbook logic is strong with this one.
The Leviticus laws are horrifying, though. I'm actually grateful to have an exchange with someone who has a foundation for what they believe. As much as I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, in all fairness, I'd rather have dialogue with you than someone that has nothing but feelings to exchange or retort with. You're a pretty sharp guy, Grey. I hope my replies don't imply condescension.
T
Siberian. Thought alot on this and like most important questions, it is impossible to properly communicate in a text box. I put it in a book called "The Our Father, Version 3" that I self published through CreateSpace. Not saying to buy this, really! I am actually bringing the price to the minimum range soon, and going on Kindle, after a friend gets back to me with her thoughts. I will just say that it is clearly possible that we can understand what we refer to as God, if we stop thinking of Him as an individual entity like us, and we utilize science/philosophy and logical thought, over generations.
God will have Mercy on whom God will have Mercy, and when God does have or has shown one this Nercy via the cross then God reveals truth to those that will not abuse it, and keeps it from those that will and do
What a great and marvelous salvation by the cross and tell me how weill any of us escape
Hebrews 2:3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
2 Timothy 3:8Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;
What a great and marvelous salvation by the cross and tell me how weill any of us escape
Hebrews 2:3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
2 Timothy 3:8Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;
well then if ones heart can't be filled here then maybe one has been made for another place and that is God's kingdom as Christ said as he had Peter put down his sword after Peter cut off the ear of that man that came to take Christ away.
Christ told Peter and this is to us all as well that his kingdom is not here on earth, it is in Heaven
And we all being here forget this easily caught up oin the affairs of this life crowding out truth that is from God and that when we became believers we became citizens of Heaven and that is where we are to worship in Spirit and truth
Just some food for thought take it or leave it, free choice
Christ told Peter and this is to us all as well that his kingdom is not here on earth, it is in Heaven
And we all being here forget this easily caught up oin the affairs of this life crowding out truth that is from God and that when we became believers we became citizens of Heaven and that is where we are to worship in Spirit and truth
Just some food for thought take it or leave it, free choice
so maybe we are to learn what Christ told his disciples in Matt 10;16-20
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
The division was the work of Satan; Jesus explains in the weeds and wheat how the enemy would sow his seed after Jesus and the aposltes died.
That seed was the massive church authority at that time, which gave birth to the Reformation and various denominations.
The Bible tells us to both seek God ( meaning seek answers,) and to test the spirits that claim they are of God, because there are many false prophets.
We cannot just sit aside and allow ourselves to be spoon fed by whatever ritzy pastor or seemingly knowledgable Christians comes our way;
wolves in sheep's clothing, will devour us in this case.
It's not easy, and I did fall into atheism for questioning the truth of God after hearing so many dead - end, and uncertain fallacies presented by the greater Christian ideaology. However, I found God again, though this time ha ha -
I'm so blessed, but I had no idea how incredibly deep God really was; and it's not even a shaving off the tip of the spiritual ice berg
That seed was the massive church authority at that time, which gave birth to the Reformation and various denominations.
The Bible tells us to both seek God ( meaning seek answers,) and to test the spirits that claim they are of God, because there are many false prophets.
We cannot just sit aside and allow ourselves to be spoon fed by whatever ritzy pastor or seemingly knowledgable Christians comes our way;
wolves in sheep's clothing, will devour us in this case.
It's not easy, and I did fall into atheism for questioning the truth of God after hearing so many dead - end, and uncertain fallacies presented by the greater Christian ideaology. However, I found God again, though this time ha ha -
I'm so blessed, but I had no idea how incredibly deep God really was; and it's not even a shaving off the tip of the spiritual ice berg
John 8:32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
G
It sounds as though you didn't have true faith to begin with when you use that sort of phraseology.
The textbook logic is strong with this one.
The Leviticus laws are horrifying, though. I'm actually grateful to have an exchange with someone who has a foundation for what they believe. As much as I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, in all fairness, I'd rather have dialogue with you than someone that has nothing but feelings to exchange or retort with. You're a pretty sharp guy, Grey. I hope my replies don't imply condescension.
The textbook logic is strong with this one.
The Leviticus laws are horrifying, though. I'm actually grateful to have an exchange with someone who has a foundation for what they believe. As much as I love my brothers and sisters in Christ, in all fairness, I'd rather have dialogue with you than someone that has nothing but feelings to exchange or retort with. You're a pretty sharp guy, Grey. I hope my replies don't imply condescension.
When I mention levitical laws a lot of people use the "jesus fufilled the law" we don't need to abide by them any more. Thats not my issue, my issue was even before utilizing rational thought, I saw any god that dictated the Levitical laws as a Tyrant.
And thank you, I also appreciate a non-hostile dialouge with people on here. :]
oh wow, this thread escalated quickly 0_0
I really want to respond to PennEd formally, but all I'll say is that if you can't say something tactfully, you shouldn't say it at all.
@Living Epistle: I do agree that our religions do have a lot of similarities, such as what you described, but i dont know if I'd agree to the extent of some of them. For example, the analogy of Bodhisattvas to priests only works on some level. They're much more analogous to Catholic/Orthodox saints. We don't follow the teachings of or believe in boddhisatvas, they fulfill roles of spiritual role models, or provide comfort to those who need it. For example, Ksitigarbha, aka Jizo is known as the guardian of children, both alive and deceased, and veneration of him is common amongst parents or people who have had abortions or miscarriages.
Likewise Avidya isn't really like sin. Avidya is just ignorance, specifically ignorance of what many of the buddhist doctrines really mean. I was plagued by this for a couple years, as I thought I REALLY totally understood buddhism, but really had no idea what i was talking about. Now I'm much more careful to say I know something for sure I digress
There are definite parallels between our religions. Our concept of "suffering," or dukkha is related to your concept of sin, though it encompasses a bit more then just sin. But we both agree that this concept adversely affects humanity, and that it must be remedied. How we propose to remedy it is where we diverge. Zen Buddhists believe it can be remedied through zazen (similar to meditation). Christians believe that having God forgive us of our sins helps remedy it, though never fully. Buddhists believe that you can end suffering, whereas christians believe it can only be mitigated by living a Godly life, but never fully fixed until you die and go to heaven.
Lastly, I disagree that you dispelled forever the idea of God being given a "free pass;" Yes, in the Christian tradition, God did send his son to die for us, which is a gesture of supreme love. Ignoring my issues with the idea that he HAD to send his Son in the first place, my biggest issue is why he would make this ultimate sacrifice, but then restrict it to only those who believe in and follow his Son. I don't believe that eternal punishment is justice in any way, shape or form, especially for someone who has only lived a mortal life. I'd have less of a problem with Christianity if hell wasn't eternal I feel.
Anyway, that's my thing. Hopefully it won't start another crapstorm >.>
I really want to respond to PennEd formally, but all I'll say is that if you can't say something tactfully, you shouldn't say it at all.
@Living Epistle: I do agree that our religions do have a lot of similarities, such as what you described, but i dont know if I'd agree to the extent of some of them. For example, the analogy of Bodhisattvas to priests only works on some level. They're much more analogous to Catholic/Orthodox saints. We don't follow the teachings of or believe in boddhisatvas, they fulfill roles of spiritual role models, or provide comfort to those who need it. For example, Ksitigarbha, aka Jizo is known as the guardian of children, both alive and deceased, and veneration of him is common amongst parents or people who have had abortions or miscarriages.
Likewise Avidya isn't really like sin. Avidya is just ignorance, specifically ignorance of what many of the buddhist doctrines really mean. I was plagued by this for a couple years, as I thought I REALLY totally understood buddhism, but really had no idea what i was talking about. Now I'm much more careful to say I know something for sure
I digressThere are definite parallels between our religions. Our concept of "suffering," or dukkha is related to your concept of sin, though it encompasses a bit more then just sin. But we both agree that this concept adversely affects humanity, and that it must be remedied. How we propose to remedy it is where we diverge. Zen Buddhists believe it can be remedied through zazen (similar to meditation). Christians believe that having God forgive us of our sins helps remedy it, though never fully. Buddhists believe that you can end suffering, whereas christians believe it can only be mitigated by living a Godly life, but never fully fixed until you die and go to heaven.
Lastly, I disagree that you dispelled forever the idea of God being given a "free pass;" Yes, in the Christian tradition, God did send his son to die for us, which is a gesture of supreme love. Ignoring my issues with the idea that he HAD to send his Son in the first place, my biggest issue is why he would make this ultimate sacrifice, but then restrict it to only those who believe in and follow his Son. I don't believe that eternal punishment is justice in any way, shape or form, especially for someone who has only lived a mortal life. I'd have less of a problem with Christianity if hell wasn't eternal I feel.
Anyway, that's my thing. Hopefully it won't start another crapstorm >.>