There is no such thing as Sola Scriptura

[eternally-gratefull]

They keep insisting that Catholics must justify a FALSEHOOD they fabricated because falsehood is the glue that holds their Hate-filled bigotry together.
(Why do you 'worship' Mary? ... We do NOT worship Mary... But WHY do you worship Mary?... it borders on idiotic)

Perhaps they lack the maturity to understand the difference between worship and adoration. Maybe they lack the RESPECT that would make recognition of simple Catholic replies recognizable....

For this they merit pity.

(and little else)

and people wonder why the catholic church is so hated. You can;t discuss anything all you do is mock and scorn. Why can;t you all be like seven. He actually discusses things.. and does not make attacks.. unless he is attacked..

You people act just like the pharisees.. If we could take a devout pharisee and a devout catholic and put them side by side, we would not be able to tell the difference other than what they were wearing.. they make the same attacks. the same excuses. the same everything. and mock and scorn everyone who does not believe the way they do.

 

[Xanthus]

The verse was not meant to prove the sufficiency of scripture. It is simply my belief that scripture is sufficient because it is the inspired written word of God. You can have your church, brother. I'm just not interested in it anymore.

Okay ChristreconcilesAll, if that works for you, fine.
That is NOT my belief.

But in my view the full knowledge and comprehension of the Church requires more than just "Scripture". (obviously, imo)
I am not sufficient in and of myself to explain my existence. My father (and mother) had not just a meaningful but a critical part to play.
Saying that I, (physical body) did not need my parents to come into being would be beyond arrogant.

Scripture derives from Oral Tradition. To cast Oral Tradition aside is not just disrespectful but hopelessly flawed.
(Which is why half their SS arguments don't make any sense, imo).
Those who recognize Oral Tradition do NOT reject the notion that Scripture is the Inspired Word of God.
They simply logically, rationally and faithfully recognize that it derives from Tradition -- and that is no excuse to dispense with the Tradition any more than the successful birth of a child means you can execute the Mother.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Her name was Asherah the fertility goddess associated with the immoral nature of Baal worship. Yahweh told the Israelites to destroy the Asherah poles that stood alongside the altar of Baal because they were symbols of idolatry just like statues of the "queen of heaven" are today regardless of how some folks rationalize it. Praying to the "queen of heaven" always was and still is idolatry. The word of God does not use the phrase "mother of God" as the Roman Catholics do because God does not have a mother. God, Yahweh Elohim, is the source of all, and it is he that we are to worship. The one mediator between God and us is his only begotten son, the word of God, the image of God, Yeshua HaMashiach, commonly called Jesus Christ. No dead saints, including Mary, should be prayed to for intercession.

Scripture goes even further.

Speaking of Christ as our mediator.

7 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, [SUP]2 [/SUP]to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all, first being translated “king of righteousness,” and then also king of Salem, meaning “king of peace,” [SUP]3 [/SUP]without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, remains a priest continually.

Jesus is king od righteousness, and king of peace. Jesus had no mother. As he said, before abraham, he existed. He pre-existed all men. He created them.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

be back later.. Have a bible study to lead.. I know I left some questions unanswered.

 

[Xanthus]

The praying to saints is just another method that detracts from a personal relationship with Jesus.
It is indeed against Gods instructions....one mediator between man and God - Jesus. 1 Tim. 2:5 & Jn. 16:23.
Jesus is the only one who can accept prayer. <><

No. It doesn't and no it is not.

(time is short for many readers here. Please do us the courtesy to paste in the biblical quote and don't make us go look up your reference to see clearly how you over-reached and misread the scripture. Plus, the scripture to show where prayers to the Saints is a good thing have already been posted here. Please refute those as well.)

 

[ChristReconcilesAll]

You're praying to a statue of a dead person who is said to have supernatural power because she is the so called "mother of God" and the so called "queen of heaven." God hears your prayers without the need of dead people to help him out, and he doesn't have a mother or a queen. We're not working from a common reference because you're using Catholic doctrine while other folks are using the inspired written word of God. So there is no way to agree other than to say I know you're right about Catholic doctrine, but I just don't believe it and haven't for a long time. So I guess we'll just agree to disagree. God bless you anyway.

This is the only mortal in heaven so far.

"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:16)

"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)

"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

All the dead saints are reposing until Christ returns.

 

[Katy-follower]

Mary did not remain a virgin for she ahd Janmes and Jude half- brothers of Jesus

"Jesus’ brothers are mentioned in several Bible verses. Matthew 12:46, Luke 8:19, and Mark 3:31 say that Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see Him. The Bible tells us that Jesus had four brothers: James, Joses, Simon, and Judas (Matthew 13:55). The Bible also tells us that Jesus had sisters, but they are not named or numbered (Matthew 13:56). In John 7:1-10, His brothers go on to the festival while Jesus stays behind. In Acts 1:14, His brothers and mother are described as praying with the disciples. Galatians 1:19 mentions that James was Jesus’ brother. The most natural conclusion of these passages is to interpret that Jesus had actual blood half-siblings"

 

[Xanthus]

and people wonder why the catholic church is so hated. You can;t discuss anything all you do is mock and scorn. Why can;t you all be like seven. He actually discusses things.. and does not make attacks.. unless he is attacked..

You people act just like the pharisees.. If we could take a devout pharisee and a devout catholic and put them side by side, we would not be able to tell the difference other than what they were wearing.. they make the same attacks. the same excuses. the same everything. and mock and scorn everyone who does not believe the way they do.

Ahhhh. A moment of honesty - the hatred is openly admitted to be real.
["ohhh, but I didn't say I hated Catholics... just the Catholic "Church", see?" ... only problem is you are not replying to the Church - you are replying to real people who do not even represent the Church. The "H" word tumbles out because you are simply in the presence of those who will not join you in wallowing in the giant collective anti Catholic Hate-fest that so many of the "Christian" chat forums devolve into.]

"Mock & Scorn"?
Blatant, 100% pure PROJECTION.

I have "mocked" nothing. Grab a quote of what I said and show how it is mocking.

There is NO mocking... NO scorning...

Pure unadulterated made up baloney. Point the accusing finger and just start making stuff up.
That is the anti-catholic bigot's modus operandi.

Identifying outright falsehood is NOT 'mocking'. Defending Truth is not mocking.

Correcting error is not mocking.

 

[Xanthus]

You're praying to a statue of a dead person who is said to have supernatural power because she is the so called "mother of God" and the so called "queen of heaven."

Please, speak for yourself.

You already indicated that you did not pray to a statue as a Catholic.

I as a Catholic never prayed to a statue.

Hey! -- all you Catholics here... Do any of you pray to a statue?... no?...

...

No. I didn't think so.

Sayin' it don't make it so.

Enough with the falsehoods and blatant outright ANTI-CATHOLIC BIGOTRY... alright people?

sheesh....

 

[ChristReconcilesAll]

I'm not sure what you're getting at there, bro. You said you used to be Catholic. So I figure you know about praying for intercession to saints represented by statues, amulets, images, etc. Scripture gives a different idea of what saints are than I remember from the Catholic Church. Scripturally saints are God's people, and the only active ones are alive. But, from what I remember, the pope has to officially designate a saint usually after they've been dead awhile, and those guys aren't going to do you any good if you pray to them to ask them to help you out because the dead are not alive in heaven. That is the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from Satan's lie in the garden of Eden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis3:4)

 

[Katy-follower]

Enough with the falsehoods and blatant outright ANTI-CATHOLIC BIGOTRY... alright people?

Thing is, you don't know us.... some on this site are ex Catholics, some have come from Catholic families or schooling, who know the system well, some have even sat in Catholic services and seen what takes place each week in those churches.

I went to a Convent school when I was young, my mother is an ex Catholic, my spouse and his family are Catholics, I've even attended a few Catholic services in the past (though I was not a partaker). I've seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears what is taught. One of several things that puzzled me was watching as all would enter the church and bow before a box, before being seated. I later found out they were bowing before a piece of bread (Eucharist) contained in that box, and they believed that in doing this they were bowing before Jesus Himself. I even went to a Christmas eve mass one time while with in-laws in Miami.


The below scripture speaks of all false Christs that will appear, but interesting keywords to note...

Matthew 24:23-26: "Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. See, I have told you beforehand. “Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it" (Another translation of 'Inner Rooms' from the Greek is container/ box)


Our English translations say that false Christs and false prophets will rise. It also mentions that some might say He would appear in the “secret chambers” or “inner rooms” or “inner chambers,” a look at the original Greek word tameion provides some very interesting insight. With reference to Strong’s Concordance, the actual meaning of the Greek word tameion that is translated as inner rooms is:

tameion (tam-i'-on); neuter contraction of a presumed derivative of tamias (a dispenser or distributor; akin to temno, to cut); a dispensary or magazine, i.e. a chamber on the ground-floor or interior of an Oriental house (generally used for storage or privacy, a spot for retirement)

In other words, the original Greek word tameion, actually refers to some kind of storage container or dispensary. A vessel or a container to store or dispense a counterfeit Christ?

 

[ChristReconcilesAll]

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Cherry-picking?
Uhhh, no. These are crystal clear type and fulfillments. Some of the are almost verbatim from the OT to the NT:

"Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
“Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43)

The only difference in these quotes is bold and underlined. Hiding your head in the sand won't make this truth magically disappear . . .

for the benefit of people who may not be following -all- of the threads where this same argument is taking place...i showed that this is a blatant misquote of the verse in another thread... http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...holic-vs-protestant-debate-9.html#post1028777

 

[ChristReconcilesAll]

You're right, sister. I only heard about "original sin" when I was a kid in the Catholic Church. There's nothing in the word of God about it. Mary was a sinner just like the rest of us, but she was blessed to be the mother of Christ.

"for all sinned and are wanting of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23)

 

[Xanthus]

I'm not sure what you're getting at there, bro. You said you used to be Catholic. So I figure you know about praying for intercession to saints represented by statues, amulets, images, etc. Scripture gives a different idea of what saints are than I remember from the Catholic Church. Scripturally saints are God's people, and the only active ones are alive. But, from what I remember, the pope has to officially designate a saint usually after they've been dead awhile, and those guys aren't going to do you any good if you pray to them to ask them to help you out because the dead are not alive in heaven. That is the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from Satan's lie in the garden of Eden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis3:4)

View attachment 48149

That's not quite what I said but, close enough. I have not gone to mass and received the sacraments since 1980 ... or somewhere thereabouts.

I completely left the Church and went on walkabout in the wilderness of brain dead egg-head pseudo-intellectual new bible gobblydegook religions and I was hoping and seeking and ... well, you get the idea....

Over time though, I noticed there was this steady background noise of chatter about the Catholics this... the Catholics that... the Catholics this other thing...

And I didn't really care much in the beginning and I just went with the flow. But then slowly, I started to realize that so much of the ignorant blabber being spouted was not really a fair representation of what I remembered about what Catholics really believed, or what Catholics really did.
Most of the anti-Catholic gossip was really just made up nonsense fabricated out of thin air. Okay, maybe some bit of doctrine here combined with some rumor there, mixed with some random idea from some movie... voila' -- Hey! look at what catholics do!! -- only problem is, I just had to stand up one day and say, "Sorry Jack, but what you are saying is a giant pile of defecate".

I am not going to stand here and tell you what Truth is.

But I will tell you that I am no longer in the mood to just stand by and let this completely false stream of anti-Catholic nonsense blow past me without a challenge. Half my family is DEVOUT Catholic (the other half is Lutheran, believe it or not... one Uncle was a Lutheran Minister even!).

I disagree with my Catholic family on a regular basis but the falsehoods poured out on this forum are just ridiculous.

 

[ChristReconcilesAll]

I'm not bitter, brother. I don't know why you're accusing me of that.

I believe in Yahweh Elohim, the Father, the source of all (Genesis 1:1), the "the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11), and the goal of all (1 Corinthians 15:28). I believe in Yehshua HaMashiach, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten son of God, the word of God, and the image of God who died for the sins of the whole world, was roused from the dead by the Father, and sits at his right hand in heaven. I also believe in the holy spirit of God, the power of God that generated the Christ child in the virgin Mary, that inspired the authors of the scriptures, and lives in us believers. (Matthew 1:18; 2 Peter 1:21; 1 Corinthians 3:16) The word "holy" from the Hebrew "quodesh" and the Greek "hagion" means "set apart." The word "spirit" from the Hebrew "ruach" and the Greek "pneuma" literally means "blow-effect," and by implication is the imperceptible intangible power of action, life, and intelligence. The "holy spirit" is not a mythical third "person" in a triune godhead, but it is the power of God. The Roman Empire established the doctrine of the Trinity for the sake of political expediency long after the scriptures were already the doctrine of believers. Words were added to (1 John 5:7) in Latin manuscripts in an attempt to verify the Trinity, but that deception has been discredited by earlier Greek manuscripts which do not contain that adulterated verse. Nowhere in the Hebrew or Greek scriptures does it say that the Father is a "person" co-equal with his son and his holy spirit. The Trinity is simply the philosophy of man, and it dishonors the Father. The ancient Jews differed from the other nations by believing in one God. Despite the fact that Trinitarians claim they also do, the fact is that the Trinity originated from pagan polytheism. The Trinity does not represent the God of the Hebrews, and it should not represent the God of Christians.

"The foremost precept of all is: Hear, Israel! the Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29)

...not three, and not three in one, just plain "one."

"For even if so be that there are those being termed gods, whether in heaven or on earth, even as there are many gods and many lords, nevertheless for us there is one God, the Father, out of Whom all is, and we for Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom all is, and we through Him." (1 Corinthians 8:6)

 

[ChristReconcilesAll]

I don't take any anathemas from the Catholic Church seriously, but I understand Paul's anathema. That's why I'm not a Catholic anymore.

"I am marveling that thus, swiftly, you are transferred from that which calls you in the grace of Christ, to a different evangel, which is not another, except it be that some who are disturbing you want also to distort the evangel of Christ. But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:6-8)

 

[Xanthus]

I'm not bitter, brother. I don't know why you're accusing me of that.

Which brother accused you of being bitter?

 

[ChristReconcilesAll]

Who cares about the so called hypostatic union? I'm glad to be a heretic because it just means I don't conform to church doctrine that does not conform to the word of God.

 

[ChristReconcilesAll]

So because a sister disagrees with some of your doctrine, she's not in the body of Christ? You need to lighten up, bro.