Eternal punishment case closed

[OwenHeidenreich]

1 timothy 2:4
[GOD] who WANTS all people to be SAVED and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
2 peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"


isaiah 55:11
so is my word that goes out from my mouth:
It will NOT return to me empty,
but WILL accomplish what I DESIRE
and ACHIEVE the purpose for which I sent it.


God wants ALL people to be saved and he WILL accomplish that.

god always fulfills his will and is unwlling that any should perish

 

[danschance]

Here are a few verses I don't think you have seen yet.

1) "Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence." Daniel 12:2

2) " And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Mathew 25:46

3) "If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:15

4) "And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment" Hebrews 9:27

5) "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him." John 3:36

6) "“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!" Mathew 25:41

7) “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth” Mathew 13:50

8) " “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”" Mark 9:48

9) “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone” Revelation 14:10

10) “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night” Revelation 14:11

Looks like your "case closed" Just got reopened.

 

[Vestarena]

Here are a few verses I don't think you have seen yet.

1) "Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence." Daniel 12:2

2) " And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Mathew 25:46

3) "If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev. 20:15

4) "And just as people are appointed to die once, and then to face judgment" Hebrews 9:27

5) "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him." John 3:36

6) "“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels!" Mathew 25:41

7) “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth” Mathew 13:50

8) " “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”" Mark 9:48

9) “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone” Revelation 14:10

10) “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night” Revelation 14:11

Looks like your "case closed" Just got reopened.

Sorry, the case will only be closed when the modern Christian world gets it right. As long as they keep getting it wrong, it ain't gonna close. There have been tons of excellent points put on this site in multiple threads showing how hellfire is the fire that will consume Satan, his demons, and those whose names are not in the Lamb's book of life. But consumed they will be. You refuse to see how translations have confused this. You refuse to look at the original words used by Christ, the disciples, and the ancient Hebrew of the old testament, and then you keep putting out the same argument that's been proven wrong over and over. I have to wonder why? Do you care what's true? Do you care that you're misrepresenting God with your false teaching? Telling the world their creator would actually bring them into this world, put them through some test, and then punish them never-ending in a horror movie lake of fire because they chose wrong? You might as well be saying our God is more evil than a demon. Capital punishment in this world is considered the end-all punishment. No decent human being would saying anyone should be consciously tormented/tortured never-ending for their crime. It's so impossibly ludicrous that so many Christians support this belief. No wait. Clearly WANT to support this belief.

It's a terrible lie. It defaces the truth. In my humble opinion? It's pure blasphemy against Almighty God. So yes, I take issue with it.

 

[Bistabuster]

Is there a Bible verse for that? I think not!

 

[danschance]

Sorry, the case will only be closed when the modern Christian world gets it right. As long as they keep getting it wrong, it ain't gonna close. There have been tons of excellent points put on this site in multiple threads showing how hellfire is the fire that will consume Satan, his demons, and those whose names are not in the Lamb's book of life. But consumed they will be. You refuse to see how translations have confused this. You refuse to look at the original words used by Christ, the disciples, and the ancient Hebrew of the old testament, and then you keep putting out the same argument that's been proven wrong over and over. I have to wonder why? Do you care what's true? Do you care that you're misrepresenting God with your false teaching? Telling the world their creator would actually bring them into this world, put them through some test, and then punish them never-ending in a horror movie lake of fire because they chose wrong? You might as well be saying our God is more evil than a demon. Capital punishment in this world is considered the end-all punishment. No decent human being would saying anyone should be consciously tormented/tortured never-ending for their crime. It's so impossibly ludicrous that so many Christians support this belief. No wait. Clearly WANT to support this belief.

It's a terrible lie. It defaces the truth. In my humble opinion? It's pure blasphemy against Almighty God. So yes, I take issue with it.

So I have to know Greek because none of the translations are correct? Is that your argument? Everyone is wrong except your beliefs?

The belief that eternal torment is not experienced by the unsaved is a recent new theology. Universalism (if that is what you believe) came about in the 17th century. It is widely considered to be heretical by Catholics and protestants.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

So I have to know Greek because none of the translations are correct? Is that your argument? Everyone is wrong except your beliefs?

The belief that eternal torment is not experienced by the unsaved is a recent new theology. Universalism (if that is what you believe) came about in the 17th century. It is widely considered to be heretical by Catholics and protestants.

You are skating around what was said there, danschance, rather than answering it.

You use this verse to support your belief: ) "Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence." Daniel 12:2

Now are you willing to admit that it say "Many [and not "All"] of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake.. "?

Why is that, danschance? What is the concept of shame and everlasting abhorrence there as shown by the way it is used in prior scripture to that verse? But most importantly, why "many" and not "all"?

 

[danschance]

You are skating around what was said there, danschance, rather than answering it.

You use this verse to support your belief: ) "Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence." Daniel 12:2

Now are you willing to admit that it say "Many [and not "All"] of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake.. "?

Why is that, danschance? What is the concept of shame and everlasting abhorrence there as shown by the way it is used in prior scripture to that verse? But most importantly, why "many" and not "all"?

Its about hell, same as the other 9 verses I listed. This whole false doctrine that hell does not exist flies in the face of the very words of Jesus. It is pure heresy.

 

[jimmydiggs]

There will be people spending eternity in hell, under the fullness of the wrath of God as punishment for their wickedness. The Universalist vehemently hates that God is Just.

 

[TruthTalk]

Here are a few verses I don't think you have seen yet.

5) "The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him." John 3:36

Looks like your "case closed" Just got reopened.

I agree with you danschance and all of your proof texts are excellent. I do not believe the bible teaches universalism nor a collective salvation--everyone is saved or no one is saved. And I desire that the whole world would believe and be saved but you cannot find salvation apart from Jesus Christ -

[SUP]
Acts 4
12 [/SUP]Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

"Case remains open"

Paul

 

[justamazed]

You are skating around what was said there, danschance, rather than answering it.

You use this verse to support your belief: ) "Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence." Daniel 12:2

Now are you willing to admit that it say "Many [and not "All"] of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake.. "?

Why is that, danschance? What is the concept of shame and everlasting abhorrence there as shown by the way it is used in prior scripture to that verse? But most importantly, why "many" and not "all"?

Because not all were sleep.

When God rose Christ from the grave, we who were dead in trespasses (part of that many that sleep in the ground) Has He quickened with Him and raised to heaven.

 

[Drett]

What chance is there of unity when there is disagreement even on the most elementary of belief that hell existing and there will be people punished eternally there ? Don't make the mistake of trying to make God fit what your idea of God should be.

 

[justamazed]

What chance is there of unity when there is disagreement even on the most elementary of belief that hell existing and there will be people punished eternally there ? Don't make the mistake of trying to make God fit what your idea of God should be.

I never said hell didn't exist, just that if it took hell for a soul to cry out to God, then He who is ABUNDANT IN MERCY will NOT leave His holy ones in the grave.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

You are skating around what was said there, danschance, rather than answering it.

You use this verse to support your belief: ) "Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake – some to everlasting life, and others to shame and everlasting abhorrence." Daniel 12:2

Now are you willing to admit that it say "Many [and not "All"] of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake.. "?

Why is that, danschance? What is the concept of shame and everlasting abhorrence there as shown by the way it is used in prior scripture to that verse? But most importantly, why "many" and not "all"?

Because not all were sleep.

When God rose Christ from the grave, we who were dead in trespasses (part of that many that sleep in the ground) Has He quickened with Him and raised to heaven.

Are you really so sure that "many of those who sleep in the dusty ground" is not also saying that some are yet remaining asleep in the dusty ground?

If the rest had risen in Christ as you say, then it would be "all who remained asleep in the dusty ground" that would rise, by your theory.

But it does not say that "all of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake..."

It says quite clearly, "Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake..", just as clearly meaning that some remain asleep in the dusty ground.

Jeremiah 25:27 "Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you."

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Amos 8:14 "They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again."

 

[crossnote]

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
(Rev 14:9-11)


Thayer Definition: (amazing, he was a Unitarian)

βασανισμός
basanismos
1) to torture, a testing by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
2) torment, torture
2a) the act of tormenting
2b) the state or condition of those tormented
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G928
Citing in TDNT: 1:561, 96


STRONGS
G929
βασανισμός
basanismos
bas-an-is-mos'
From G928; torture: - torment.

 

[danschance]

Are you really so sure that "many of those who sleep in the dusty ground" is not also saying that some are yet remaining asleep in the dusty ground?

If the rest had risen in Christ as you say, then it would be "all who remained asleep in the dusty ground" that would rise, by your theory.




But it does not say that "all of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake..."

It says quite clearly, "Many of those who sleep in the dusty ground will awake..", just as clearly meaning that some remain asleep in the dusty ground.

Jeremiah 25:27 "Therefore thou shalt say unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Drink ye, and be drunken, and spue, and fall, and rise no more, because of the sword which I will send among you."

Are you really so sure that "many of those who sleep in the dusty ground" is not also saying that some are yet remaining asleep in the dusty ground?

I posted that verse to show evidence of Hell. I never said anyone is asleep in the ground. The term asleep in the ground is just a figure of speech.

If the rest had risen in Christ as you say, then it would be "all who remained asleep in the dusty ground" that would rise, by your theory.

The Hebrew word can be translated as many, great, exceeding abounding, numerous and other similar words. Many does not imply that some are left in the ground. The verse does not mention other nor is there any other bible verse that suggests some sleep in the ground while others do not. However we do know that at judgement day some will be alive. Soul sleep is a heresy and not taught in the early church.

Again you have not addressed the other 9 verses I posted but latched on to this one. You accused me of dancing around and being evasive and yet you have not even tried to answer the many other verses in the bible that mention fire, torment hell, etc.

 

[danschance]

Because not all were sleep.

When God rose Christ from the grave, we who were dead in trespasses (part of that many that sleep in the ground) Has He quickened with Him and raised to heaven.

Exactly one of my points. Too bad people are trying to change the subject by focusing on this verse and not addressing the topic of this thread.

 

[danschance]

I agree with you danschance and all of your proof texts are excellent. I do not believe the bible teaches universalism nor a collective salvation--everyone is saved or no one is saved. And I desire that the whole world would believe and be saved but you cannot find salvation apart from Jesus Christ -

[SUP]
Acts 4
12 [/SUP]Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

"Case remains open"

Paul

Universalism is another "Johnny come lately" doctrine, never once taught in the early church. It only reared it's ugly head around the 17th century. It came to America in the 18th century just about the time America experienced an explosion in new christian cults and false theology known as the "The First Great Awakening". There were a total of three great awakenings. From this time periods we got the Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh day Adventism Shakers, Christian Science and a whole horde of other aberrant religious moments.

I reject all new theology that was never taught by the early church as being nothing less than false theology.

 

[Bookreader]

There will be people spending eternity in hell, under the fullness of the wrath of God as punishment for their wickedness. The Universalist vehemently hates that God is Just.

The problem is that eternal torture for maybe 5 years of wickedness (no matter how bad) is not just.
That is why an increasing number of people are coming to see the Bible doesn't actually say that. It was a "stick" invented by the Catholic church instead of relying only on the "carrot" of the gospel.

The choices for belief are "traditional", "universalist" and "conditionalist"

I think the Bible is very clear that people will be destroyed. The language of the Bible uses 'eternal flame' to mean permanent destruction. It is an eternal and everlasting punishment.
I'm a conditionalist - it's a better

Those who believe the "traditional" viewpoint have a God that tortures eternally a man born into the slum in Delhi who never heard of Jesus and dies at the age of 19 from cholera. A God of love?

Those who believe the "universalist" viewpoint have a God that forever gives a person a second chance until they eventually give up. A God of righteousness and justice?

As kardiaoangelous pointed out, not all will be raised (the Bible says many). I believe that only those who have heard of Jesus will be raised. No eternal torture for those who were too young or too isolated to hear the gospel.
And that those who who are not in the Book of Life receive "the second death" (as the Bible says). They will be judged and shown where they went wrong. There will be a gnashing of teeth. Then they will be destroyed - forever.

If people are to live on forever in the grave (that is what sheol/hell means, the firey pit is a pagan invention) then the serpent was right in Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:"
I prefer not to base my doctrine on the words of a serpent or the Greek philosopher Plato (who invented the idea of the 'immortal soul').

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I posted that verse to show evidence of Hell. I never said anyone is asleep in the ground. The term asleep in the ground is just a figure of speech.

The Hebrew word can be translated as many, great, exceeding abounding, numerous and other similar words. Many does not imply that some are left in the ground. The verse does not mention other nor is there any other bible verse that suggests some sleep in the ground while others do not. However we do know that at judgement day some will be alive. Soul sleep is a heresy and not taught in the early church.

Again you have not addressed the other 9 verses I posted but latched on to this one. You accused me of dancing around and being evasive and yet you have not even tried to answer the many other verses in the bible that mention fire, torment hell, etc.

Actually, I wish to visit each stone that composes the structure of the concept you have built. And I know that the stones at the base are important to seeing how the stones further up have been made to lean.