Is baptism Essential for salvation?

[homwardbound]

Baptize and repent, from Greek language, means something like 'submerge and mind change'. Or, in modern terms; 'Undergo a change of mind'. Water baptism is just a symbol that belongs to some denominations and some teachings. A symbol of a person's change of heart.

I suspect, at the time of Jesus, that people were very social and outward about their proximity to God. The Jewish law was based on the Ten Commandments and many of the inhabitants of cities that Jesus lived in or visited would have been openly Jewish. So open, grand symbols of faith were accepted and condoned and even promoted.

But to answer your question; no. Baptism isn't required for anything, at least not the water kind.

John the Baptists Baptism was for repentance, one wanting to change, and show good works, yet more importantly this Baptism was to announce to the Jews that thier Messiah has arrived and when He Babtised Christ and saw the dove descend and the voice he heard from Father, John announced it and then said
John 3:30He must increase, but I must decrease.
Matthew 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
[h=3]Acts 1:5[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

Then Pentecost came and today we are under the Baptism of the Holy Ghost and that is the Baptism that is written in Romans 6:4 itis the baptism of the Holy Ghost that saves, water baptism is a good conscience that you want to serve God but is not a regeneration to new life

[h=3]Romans 6:4[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

The fire of the Holy Ghost is for the purpose of one to get their flesh, burned out of them and be alive in the Spirit here and now by the same resurrection that Christ has from God the Father at the cross after the third day
Today we are Baptized into one Spirit


1 Corinthians 12:13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[homwardbound]

The Bible acknowledge!

But I can say I know "someone" who went to mormons, to those churches who say "Jesus only Jesus" and also baptized under Baptist Church... Last's saturday I went with him to a Synagogue (...) And, in my opinion, everything is in God's choice. Whatever He says is enough for me (and I am reading on some Jewish doctrines, and my mind says: "Salvation is up to God's")

I love John the baptist telling the people: Repent and be converted. We need Jesus and the Holy Spirit SEAL.

Yes we do and we got it by
[h=3]Ephesians 1:5-14[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

 

[homwardbound]

There is also 'repent of your sins', which really means 'change your mind about your animal nature'. It's like saying 'have morals'. That's what the bible is about isn't it? Living a moral life for God?

It sounds so light and simple. Yet we here constructions and conditions and pathways to getting your own salvation every day. Not one person will be in the new world by their own doing; only by God's forgiveness.

It really is that simple. BUt everyone wants it to be complicated these days.

'YOu do not enter into the authority of God yourselves, nor do you allow any others to enter!'

Yes, yes and yes again
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Porthos]

Belief, Repentance and water baptism are all required for salvation. Belief alone does nothing even the devils tremble and believe.

A perfect example is Saul. Now if the all Saul need to do was believe then Jesus would have said that. Be he said go and it will be told what to do. Then Immediately he was baptized.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

His baptism was a result of everything he'd been through, after he'd changed and received sight.

And baptism was a promoted practice. This doesn't mean anything. If you think that anything you do can get you 'saved' then you're wrong. Baptism is a symbolic ritual of what's happening inside a person. Not a prerequisite to getting your own salvation from hell.

The demons are not human. Man is not demons. The same perspectives don't apply to both.

Ephesians 2:8-9

"For by a favor (of God) you have been rescued, for the sake of trust, and this is not of yourselves (trust); it is the gift from God, not from your deeds, so that not one might exalt themselves.

 

[jody50]

Yes, yes and yes again
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I like the way you believe Ephesians 2:8-9 and not Acts 2:38 where it says "Repent and be BAPTIZED everyone of you FOR the REMISSION of your sins." And 1 Peter 3:21 "For now BAPTISM does now also SAVE us" And James 2:24 "You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Sure we are saved by God's grace but He said be baptized for the remission of our sins and that we are not saved by faith only but by works. He said it and I believe Him.

 

[krow]

Faith is more important. "For it is by grace you have been saved, and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works so that no man may boast." Baptism along with good works are just the outward expression of the inward change, but they are not what saves us. Faith believing with with -ing, the present tense, in the sacrifice of Christ is the only thing that redeems us. Logically if one is believing in that one lives different than the world.

Even in the Old Testament faith was more important: And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

What does being baptized really have to do with if you live in faith later on or not? Nothing.

 

[krow]

The scripture from Ephesians 4 is Paul writing from the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, but are not the words of the Incarnate Christ. You can find those words in the Gospels. Quit worrying about baptism and stick to making sure you are living right. Baptism is an outward sign to people, but how you live both inside and OUTSIDE the church walls is a more weightier sign.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I like the way you believe Ephesians 2:8-9 and not Acts 2:38 where it says "Repent and be BAPTIZED everyone of you FOR the REMISSION of your sins." And 1 Peter 3:21 "For now BAPTISM does now also SAVE us" And James 2:24 "You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." Sure we are saved by God's grace but He said be baptized for the remission of our sins and that we are not saved by faith only but by works. He said it and I believe Him.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The baptism by the holy spirit is specifically what Peter was there speaking of. When it baptizes a person it also imparts gifts to them to be used as members of Christ's body to further the ministry of Christ in this world, like the speaking in foreign languages previously unknown to themselves.

With that in mind go back and reread my posts #37 an 38

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Concentrate on what you are told here:

Acts 8:14 "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)"

John's baptism.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I will the applicable parts of post 38 here together with that, and then explain what John's baptism was about.

Acts 8:14 "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus [which was John's baptism or it refers only to Peter and John].)"

Acts 18:25 "This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John." Which was only for those under the Old Law Covenant for forgiveness of sins committed against that Old Law Covenant.

Acts 19:1 "And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

Now we read on to see that John's baptism is not the baptism which saves us: Note it is (1 Peter 3:21b) "... (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh ...)..." which saves us, and that is what John's baptism was about.

Reading on in Acts we see that the baptism Peter refers to at Acts 2:38 is a different baptism, for these had all already been baptized with John's baptism in water for forgiveness against sins committed against that Old Law Covenant.

Acts 19:5-6 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

Never having been under that Old Law Covenant we do not need water baptism but we do need baptism by holy spirit if we are to be a part of the New Covenant.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Yes, now that I have taken a moment to go to the original Greek for Acts 8:14-16 I can see that the inflection changes after the phrase, "For as yet he was fallen upon none of them", back to the same inflection of used in speaking of Peter and John when speaking the part, "only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus".

So that definitely should be understood: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only [they, as in Peter and John] were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)"

I can see how that could have been a tad confusing for the translator if they did not understand that John's baptism was only for sins against the Old Covenant. But by Greek grammar rules that second half of verse 16 definitely means they as in Peter and John.

It would almost seem non-nonsensical that way, which would naturally give rise to ambivalence as to how to properly translate. But not now that we understand more about the details.

 

[zone]

Baptism is an outward sign to people

where does it say anywhere baptism is an outward sign to people?
or anything remotely like that?

 

[tribesman]

where does it say anywhere baptism is an outward sign to people?
or anything remotely like that?

Good ole' baptist tradition, ganun (is[n't] it)?

 

[zone]

I will the applicable parts of post 38 here together with that, and then explain what John's baptism was about.

Acts 8:14 "Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus [which was John's baptism or it refers only to Peter and John].)"

Acts 18:25 "This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John." Which was only for those under the Old Law Covenant for forgiveness of sins committed against that Old Law Covenant.

Acts 19:1 "And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus."

Now we read on to see that John's baptism is not the baptism which saves us: Note it is (1 Peter 3:21b) "... (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh ...)..." which saves us, and that is what John's baptism was about.

Reading on in Acts we see that the baptism Peter refers to at Acts 2:38 is a different baptism, for these had all already been baptized with John's baptism in water for forgiveness against sins committed against that Old Law Covenant.

Acts 19:5-6 "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

Never having been under that Old Law Covenant we do not need water baptism but we do need baptism by holy spirit if we are to be a part of the New Covenant.

And finding certain disciples - Certain persons who had been baptized into John's baptism, and who had embraced John's doctrine that the Messiah was soon to appear, Acts . Acts 19:3-4. It is very clear that they had not yet heard that he had come, or that the Holy Spirit was given. They were evidently in the same situation as Apollos. See the notes on Acts 18:25.
Barnes
...

19:1-7 Paul, at Ephesus, found some religious persons, who looked to Jesus as the Messiah. They had not been led to expect the miraculous powers of the Holy Ghost, nor were they informed that the gospel was especially the ministration of the Spirit. But they spake as ready to welcome the notice of it. Paul shows them that John never design that those he baptized should rest there, but told them that they should believe on Him who should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. They thankfully accepted the discovery, and were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. The Holy Ghost came upon them in a surprising, overpowering manner; they spake with tongues, and prophesied, as the apostles and the first Gentile coverts did. Though we do not now expect miraculous powers, yet all who profess to be disciples of Christ, should be called on to examine whether they have received the seal of the Holy Ghost, in his sanctifying influences, to the sincerity of their faith.
Henry

etc etc.

why we go to obscure; singular events in the history of the early church - in transition...and make doctrine out of it?

Jesus said:

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

 

[zone]

Good ole' baptist tradition, ganun (is[n't] it)?

 

[crossnote]

Yes, now that I have taken a moment to go to the original Greek for Acts 8:14-16 I can see that the inflection changes after the phrase, "For as yet he was fallen upon none of them", back to the same inflection of used in speaking of Peter and John when speaking the part, "only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus".

So that definitely should be understood: 16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only [they, as in Peter and John] were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)"

I can see how that could have been a tad confusing for the translator if they did not understand that John's baptism was only for sins against the Old Covenant. But by Greek grammar rules that second half of verse 16 definitely means they as in Peter and John.

It would almost seem non-nonsensical that way, which would naturally give rise to ambivalence as to how to properly translate. But not now that we understand more about the details.

I get tired of hearing this 'original greek' phrase as if it is the end of discussion.
There is no known existing original greek manuscripts.,.period!
Now tell us which early greek (not original) copied manuscript are you referring to?

 

[GreenNnice]

Baptism is between YOU and God, YOU will know when, the Lord leads.
What is hard, I always ask about confessing one's faith in front of others, by dunking themselves in water?

It's hard. I've done it ! It wasn't easy to go and do it, actually, I mean, I had quite a few folk that knew of me at church, I attend a larger than most church but, yeah, it is VERY hard to put one 'out there' and confess one's faith, but Scripture does say that we will get a 'clear of conscience' from it. I am not sure exactly what that is to say, for I don't want to convict anyone to do it, for salvation is as starryfields said, Eph. 2:8. By grace are you saved through faith, and, that not of yourself, it is a FREE gift of God. So, hey, you believe in His finished work on the cross, God allowing His only Son to die, that that GRACE saved you--through faith, then YOU are saved
Read Acts 2 for what is to happen AFTER being saved and you've having repented of your sins before accepting Christ into your heart for salvation (saved), as Peter explains the Holy Spirit 'step' that is next , which is an infinitely important step to understand in the salvation process, as He leads you. For me, I was saved when 16, accepting Christ, but backslid and re-committed my life to Christ at the altar at 27 age. Then, 3 years later, I was baptized in water, and, then, going out to eat afterward, after eating, my friend told another church group as we went out the door that I was just having been water baptized , said, 'Oh, have you been baptized with the Holy Spirit.' I said I didn't know what that was, but believed in the HOly Spirit. They laid hands on me , all 12 young guys , and prayed over me, it was something, I received the HOly Spirit then . God is so good, His timing is impeccable, friend

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I get tired of hearing this 'original greek' phrase as if it is the end of discussion.
There is no known existing original greek manuscripts.,.period!
Now tell us which early greek (not original) copied manuscript are you referring to?

Yes, but you know what I mean. Nice joke, though.

There was an original language Acts was written in which is said to be Koine' Greek.

You must be exhausted by the end of the day if you labor getting tired of such innocent things.

God loves us.

I would just bet he even sometimes laughs at us the way we laugh when watching our toddlers.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

And finding certain disciples - Certain persons who had been baptized into John's baptism, and who had embraced John's doctrine that the Messiah was soon to appear, Acts . Acts 19:3-4. It is very clear that they had not yet heard that he had come, or that the Holy Spirit was given. They were evidently in the same situation as Apollos. See the notes on Acts 18:25.
Barnes
...

19:1-7 Paul, at Ephesus, found some religious persons, who looked to Jesus as the Messiah. They had not been led to expect the miraculous powers of the Holy Ghost, nor were they informed that the gospel was especially the ministration of the Spirit. But they spake as ready to welcome the notice of it. Paul shows them that John never design that those he baptized should rest there, but told them that they should believe on Him who should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. They thankfully accepted the discovery, and were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. The Holy Ghost came upon them in a surprising, overpowering manner; they spake with tongues, and prophesied, as the apostles and the first Gentile coverts did. Though we do not now expect miraculous powers, yet all who profess to be disciples of Christ, should be called on to examine whether they have received the seal of the Holy Ghost, in his sanctifying influences, to the sincerity of their faith.
Henry

etc etc.

why we go to obscure; singular events in the history of the early church - in transition...and make doctrine out of it?

Jesus said:

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit

Very good zone.

How does that alter the fact that the baptism Acts 2:38 speaks of is the baptism by Holy Spirit?

It doesn't, does it.

 

[crossnote]

Yes, but you know what I mean. Nice joke, though.

There was an original language Acts was written in which is said to be Koine' Greek.

You must be exhausted by the end of the day if you labor getting tired of such innocent things.

God loves us.

Sure, most likely Acts was originally written in Greek as well as the most all of the NT. But when one speaks of going to the 'original greek' you don't mean 'the greek' lexicons but the original Greek manuscrpt e.g. the actual letter Luke or Paul penned, which we don't have.
It is no joke, because many charlatans use that phrase (the original greek) to impress in order to win over those unaware.