Is baptism Essential for salvation?

[kardiaoangelous]

By the way, I was baptized by full immersion in a river many years ago. It was a beautiful and very memorable event. There were some 12 of us baptized that day.

It is not wrong for anyone to be baptized that way and it is a useful expression of faith when correctly understood.

Please do not think I am speaking against those that do so. For I am not.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Sure, most likely Acts was originally written in Greek as well as the most all of the NT. But when one speaks of going to the 'original greek' you don't mean 'the greek' lexicons but the original Greek manuscrpt e.g. the actual letter Luke or Paul penned, which we don't have.
It is no joke, because many charlatans use that phrase (the original greek) to impress in order to win over those unaware.

Don't be petty, crossnote.

Why look with dark eyes in search of finding fault?

Let the love that is Christ rule the day and our hearts.

 

[zone]

Very good zone.

How does that alter the fact that the baptism Acts 2:38 speaks of is the baptism by Holy Spirit?

It doesn't, does it.

we're not in the Book of the ACTS OF THE APOSTLES.

people are going to have to decide if they believe in a Second Pentecost, as some do today, or if they just believe the plain meaning of scripture.

if we just read the Bible it's pretty clear.

if we keep inserting ourselves into the text it never will be.

this covers my position pretty well, for the most part.

......


Holy Spirit outpouring a “baptism”

This outpouring of the Holy Spirit is metaphorically designated as a “baptism” (see Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:5; 11:16) because it involved an overwhelming miraculous bestowal of divine power (Thayer, 94).

Fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy completed

The final demonstration of “Holy Spirit baptism” occurred when Peter and his Jewish brothers visited the family of Cornelius in the city of Caesarea (Acts 10). The Spirit of God was “poured out” (10:45) on Cornielius, his family, and near friends at that time.

Later, as Peter defended their acceptance of the Gentiles (to the Jewish church) he identified the Caesarean experience with the events that occurred “at the beginning” (i.e., on Pentecost). He further tied the circumstance to John’s prophecy of a “baptism” in the Spirit; he even called it a “like gift” (Acts 11:15-17).

Moreover, the evidence of the Spirit’s endowment was demonstrated similarly. Both the apostles on Pentecost, and the Gentiles during this incident, were empowered to speak with languages they previously had not known (2:4ff; 10:46).

What Was Purpose of Holy Spirit Baptism?

The fact that the apostles received a supernatural outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and the further reality that the Gentiles also were given a similar experience a while later, does not mean either of the following:

that the same purpose obtained in both cases; or,
that equivalent authority was bestowed in each instance.

In fact, in each of these cases, a different purpose and scope of authority was manifested by the overwhelming reception of the Holy Spirit.

Why Did the Apostles Receive the Holy Spirit?

The purpose for which the apostles received the Spirit on the day of Pentecost was unique. The background of this matter is vividly described in John’s Gospel account. The Lord promised his apostles that they would receive an unparalleled measure of the Spirit’s power to guide them in teaching the gospel in an infallible way.

The Spirit would bring to their memories the things they had learned from the Savior (Jn. 14:26). He would guide them into all truth and declare unto them things to come (Jn. 16:13). The Lord promised they would be able to proclaim his message, unfettered by the need of personal preparation; rather, gospel truth would be “given” to them as they required it (Mt. 10:19-20; cf. Lk. 21:14).

The apostles have no successors today; the gospel message is embodied in the sacred Scriptures of the New Testament. These documents carry the same weight as the messages proclaimed by Christ’s original disciples (cf. Mt. 19:28; 1 Cor. 13:8ff; Eph. 2:20). [Note: For a discussion of Matthew 19:28, as pertaining to the present authority of the apostles of Christ, see McGarvey, 170.]

There is no need today, therefore, for a replication of Holy Spirit baptism, such as was received by the Lord’s apostles.

Why Did Cornelius Receive the Holy Spirit?

The baptism of the Spirit at the house of Cornelius was different in design from that received by the apostles (though the manifestation of speaking in foreign languages was the same). There is no evidence that Cornelius had teaching powers analogous to the apostles. Certainly there is no indication that the centurion could lay his hands upon other people, thus imparting to them spiritual gifts, as an apostle could do (see Acts 8:18; 19:6; 2 Tim. 1:6).

The purpose for which Cornelius was granted the Spirit was to demonstrate to the Jews that God was ready for the gospel to be offered to the Gentiles — which circumstance constituted a problem in the thinking of the Hebrews.

This was evidenced by the fact that even Peter initially resisted the idea that the Gentiles could become Christians (Acts 10:14ff), as did the Jews of Jerusalem when they learned of the matter (Acts 11:2-3).

It was the miraculous demonstration of the Spirit upon Cornelius and his associates that turned the tide (cf. Acts 11:4ff; 15:7ff). The effect of this divine documentation of Gentile acceptance remains intact to this very day.

Accordingly, there is no need for a modern, supernatural outpouring of the Spirit to accomplish the same purpose.

Conclusion

Those who argue for a “Holy Spirit baptism” today misconstrue the design of that experience, as bestowed upon the early apostles, and then the first Gentiles to be admitted into the church. Holy Spirit baptism is not requisite to one’s salvation today, nor is it a demonstration of such. It was a phenomenon of the first century, unique to those circumstances.

When Paul wrote his epistle to the Ephesians (c. A.D. 62), he affirmed that there was but “one baptism” (Eph. 4:5). Clearly, this was “water” baptism — the rite that was to continue to the end of the age (Mt. 28:19-20).

Consequently, by default, Holy Spirit baptism is eliminated as a modern endowment.

Wayne Jackson

.....


alternatively:


Baptism with the Holy Spirit (alternatively Baptism in the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost) in Christian theology is a term describing baptism (washing or immersion) in or with the Spirit of God and is frequently associated with the bestowal of spiritual gifts and empowerment for Christian ministry.[1][2][3] While the phrase "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is found in the New Testament and all Christian traditions accept it as a theological concept, each has interpreted it in a way consistent with their own beliefs on ecclesiology and Christian initiation.[4] One view holds that the term refers only to Pentecost, the "once-for-all" event for the whole Church described in the second chapter of the Book of Acts.[5] Another view holds that the term also refers to an experience of the individual believer distinct from salvation and initiation into the Church.

Before the emergence of the holiness movement in the mid-19th century and Pentecostalism in the early 20th century, most denominations believed that Christians received the baptism with the Holy Spirit either upon conversion and regeneration[5] or through rites of Christian initiation. Since the growth and spread of Pentecostal and charismatic churches, however, the belief that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is an experience distinct from regeneration has come into increasing prominence.[6]

Baptism with the Holy Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

 

[kardiaoangelous]

we're not in the Book of the ACTS OF THE APOSTLES.

people are going to have to decide if they believe in a Second Pentecost, as some do today, or if they just believe the plain meaning of scripture.

if we just read the Bible it's pretty clear.

if we keep inserting ourselves into the text it never will be.

this covers my position pretty well, for the most part.

......


Holy Spirit outpouring a “baptism”

This outpouring of the Holy Spirit is metaphorically designated as a “baptism” (see Mt. 3:11; Acts 1:5; 11:16) because it involved an overwhelming miraculous bestowal of divine power (Thayer, 94).

Fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy completed

The final demonstration of “Holy Spirit baptism” occurred when Peter and his Jewish brothers visited the family of Cornelius in the city of Caesarea (Acts 10). The Spirit of God was “poured out” (10:45) on Cornielius, his family, and near friends at that time.

Later, as Peter defended their acceptance of the Gentiles (to the Jewish church) he identified the Caesarean experience with the events that occurred “at the beginning” (i.e., on Pentecost). He further tied the circumstance to John’s prophecy of a “baptism” in the Spirit; he even called it a “like gift” (Acts 11:15-17).

Moreover, the evidence of the Spirit’s endowment was demonstrated similarly. Both the apostles on Pentecost, and the Gentiles during this incident, were empowered to speak with languages they previously had not known (2:4ff; 10:46).

What Was Purpose of Holy Spirit Baptism?

The fact that the apostles received a supernatural outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, and the further reality that the Gentiles also were given a similar experience a while later, does not mean either of the following:

that the same purpose obtained in both cases; or,
that equivalent authority was bestowed in each instance.

In fact, in each of these cases, a different purpose and scope of authority was manifested by the overwhelming reception of the Holy Spirit.

Why Did the Apostles Receive the Holy Spirit?

The purpose for which the apostles received the Spirit on the day of Pentecost was unique. The background of this matter is vividly described in John’s Gospel account. The Lord promised his apostles that they would receive an unparalleled measure of the Spirit’s power to guide them in teaching the gospel in an infallible way.

The Spirit would bring to their memories the things they had learned from the Savior (Jn. 14:26). He would guide them into all truth and declare unto them things to come (Jn. 16:13). The Lord promised they would be able to proclaim his message, unfettered by the need of personal preparation; rather, gospel truth would be “given” to them as they required it (Mt. 10:19-20; cf. Lk. 21:14).

The apostles have no successors today; the gospel message is embodied in the sacred Scriptures of the New Testament. These documents carry the same weight as the messages proclaimed by Christ’s original disciples (cf. Mt. 19:28; 1 Cor. 13:8ff; Eph. 2:20). [Note: For a discussion of Matthew 19:28, as pertaining to the present authority of the apostles of Christ, see McGarvey, 170.]

There is no need today, therefore, for a replication of Holy Spirit baptism, such as was received by the Lord’s apostles.

Why Did Cornelius Receive the Holy Spirit?

The baptism of the Spirit at the house of Cornelius was different in design from that received by the apostles (though the manifestation of speaking in foreign languages was the same). There is no evidence that Cornelius had teaching powers analogous to the apostles. Certainly there is no indication that the centurion could lay his hands upon other people, thus imparting to them spiritual gifts, as an apostle could do (see Acts 8:18; 19:6; 2 Tim. 1:6).

The purpose for which Cornelius was granted the Spirit was to demonstrate to the Jews that God was ready for the gospel to be offered to the Gentiles — which circumstance constituted a problem in the thinking of the Hebrews.

This was evidenced by the fact that even Peter initially resisted the idea that the Gentiles could become Christians (Acts 10:14ff), as did the Jews of Jerusalem when they learned of the matter (Acts 11:2-3).

It was the miraculous demonstration of the Spirit upon Cornelius and his associates that turned the tide (cf. Acts 11:4ff; 15:7ff). The effect of this divine documentation of Gentile acceptance remains intact to this very day.

Accordingly, there is no need for a modern, supernatural outpouring of the Spirit to accomplish the same purpose.

Conclusion

Those who argue for a “Holy Spirit baptism” today misconstrue the design of that experience, as bestowed upon the early apostles, and then the first Gentiles to be admitted into the church. Holy Spirit baptism is not requisite to one’s salvation today, nor is it a demonstration of such. It was a phenomenon of the first century, unique to those circumstances.

When Paul wrote his epistle to the Ephesians (c. A.D. 62), he affirmed that there was but “one baptism” (Eph. 4:5). Clearly, this was “water” baptism — the rite that was to continue to the end of the age (Mt. 28:19-20).

Consequently, by default, Holy Spirit baptism is eliminated as a modern endowment.

Wayne Jackson

.....


alternatively:


Baptism with the Holy Spirit (alternatively Baptism in the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost) in Christian theology is a term describing baptism (washing or immersion) in or with the Spirit of God and is frequently associated with the bestowal of spiritual gifts and empowerment for Christian ministry.[1][2][3] While the phrase "baptism with the Holy Spirit" is found in the New Testament and all Christian traditions accept it as a theological concept, each has interpreted it in a way consistent with their own beliefs on ecclesiology and Christian initiation.[4] One view holds that the term refers only to Pentecost, the "once-for-all" event for the whole Church described in the second chapter of the Book of Acts.[5] Another view holds that the term also refers to an experience of the individual believer distinct from salvation and initiation into the Church.

Before the emergence of the holiness movement in the mid-19th century and Pentecostalism in the early 20th century, most denominations believed that Christians received the baptism with the Holy Spirit either upon conversion and regeneration[5] or through rites of Christian initiation. Since the growth and spread of Pentecostal and charismatic churches, however, the belief that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is an experience distinct from regeneration has come into increasing prominence.[6]

Baptism with the Holy Spirit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia < click

Wow, that is exactly the way I understand it.

When I say that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is the important thing today, I merely do not go on to elaborate (because i like to deal with one aspect at a time) that this spirit is passed with the word out of the water which issues of the belly of the believer (John 7:38; John 6:63) and so the reality as I see it is that we are today baptized by the word of truth by which also we receive life and that all only possible by God's grace allowing us to benefit from having faith in that life-giving word. (and of course in God's providing that spirit filled word to us.)

I did not want to draw that complete picture as yet for there seems to be enough resistance to each step along the way there.

However, zone, God does yet speak to people and perform miracles, and I have been the recipient of both (including clearly inspired dreams).

I tried to deny them but God made me have to recognize that it was he and it was really happening. I resisted it so hard because I felt so unworthy that I was certain it could only be pride in me trying to get me to think such a thing. But when God wants to tell you something, he has his way of forcing you to have to recognize it and accept it however he chooses to communicate it.

So I do not at all blame anyone for being skeptical. None could be more skeptical and doubting than I myself was.

 

[zone]

Wow, that is exactly the way I understand it.

When I say that the baptism in the Holy Spirit is the important thing today, I merely do not go on to elaborate (because i like to deal with one aspect at a time) that this spirit is passed with the word out of the water which issues of the belly of the believer (John 7:38; John 6:63) and so the reality as I see it is that we are today baptized by the word of truth by which also we receive life and that all only possible by God's grace allowing us to benefit from having faith in that life-giving word. (and of course in God's providing that spirit filled word to us.)

I did not want to draw that complete picture as yet for there seems to be enough resistance to each step along the way there.

However, zone, God does yet speak to people and perform miracles, and I have been the recipient of both (including clearly inspired dreams).

I tried to deny them but God made me have to recognize that it was he and it was really happening. I resisted it so hard because I felt so unworthy that I was certain it could only be pride in me trying to get me to think such a thing. But when God wants to tell you something, he has his way of forcing you to have to recognize it and accept it however he chooses to communicate it.

So I do not at all blame anyone for being skeptical. None could be more skeptical and doubting than I myself was.

kardiaoangelous,
i appreciate your experiences. they are yours.
whatever message you feel you have to impart, i do read your posts.

i suspect you're adapting as you go? which is fine.
but i thought you said you knew the whole thing already - it had already all been revealed to you.
this is why i don't really heed mystics much.

the Word can be trusted - God is not the author of confusion.

i have no idea what resistance you're talking about.
i just believe the Gospel.

repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and receive the spirit and eternal life,
through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

goodnight

 

[Cobus]

This ONE baptism in Eph 4 is BAPTISM OF/IN/WITH GOD!
Baptism that saves is: To be baptized by God into ONE BODY... HIS!
Baptism that saves is: You died and you need a NEW LIFE... HIS!
Baptism that saves is: You are baptized in THE NAME (ONE NAME) OF: JESUSCHRIST / FATHER GOD / AND HOLY GHOST.
Baptism that saves is: You die IN CHRIST, and will be made alive IN CHRIST BY CHRIST!
Baptism taht saves is: You are BAPTIZED IN WATER THAT WILL FLOW FORM YOUR BOWELS, WATER BY THE WORD, THE TRUTH!
Baptsin that saves is: YOU DIED IN CHRSIT AND THE MOMENT GOD GIVES YOU THE NEW MAN, CHRSIT JESUS IN YOU, YOU SRE QUICKENED BY THAT SPIRIT TO LIVE A HOLY AND PERFECT LIFE HERE ON EARTH.

God calls that moment various things... He calls it... Batism in Spirit, He calls ir Rebirth, Born of God, He calls it filled with the Holy Spirit. He calls it holy men of God. He calls it a vessel of honour, he calls it the perfect gift from above. He calls it the Gift of the Holy Spirit. He calld it the Seed remainith in them. Etc.Etc.

One thing is for sure, Every person that did repent, and were baptized with this baptism of God, are ONE WITH GOD... They are all made PERFECTLY one because of the COMPLETE POWER OF GOD to make them one, PERFECTLY ONE with eachother and with HIM.... The whole Bible is about this ONE PERFECT BODY, that REACHES FROM THE EARTH RIGHT INTO GOD! One perfect holy body, as ONLY GOD CAN DO IT.... I mean HE IS GOD and HE WANTS IT THAT WAY, SO I GUESS HE WILL DO IT HIS WAY.

What and awesome God this Christ Jesus is.

Father, Jesus asked you to make them perfectly one, Lord may I be one of these you do this with, PLEASE! Amen! John 17.

 

[Cobus]

The same Paul that wrote the Ephesians were the same man that said.... I WAS NOT SENT TO BAPTIZE... WOW! Paul did not preach a water baptism. And Paul did not baptize any people with water save... Look what Paul says, and then you dicide what he was sent to preach and do....

1 Cor 1:17 and 18....
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The Bible teaches that if a corn does not fall to the ground AND DIE, it cannot bear fruit again! If we do not DIE ON A CROSS, we cannot bear God's fruit. That DEATH IS Dieing off the old man, and the NEW LIFE is the INDWELLING SPIRIT OF GOD.

God will put HIS HOLY SPIRIT (SEED) in people HE SAVES untill HE IS DONE, on that day HIS SON RETURNS.

John the baptist said it best.... I baptize with water, but He shall baptize you with Holy Ghost, and with fire...

Please Lord me too, baptize me too, Amen!

 

[kardiaoangelous]

The same Paul that wrote the Ephesians were the same man that said.... I WAS NOT SENT TO BAPTIZE... WOW! Paul did not preach a water baptism. And Paul did not baptize any people with water save... Look what Paul says, and then you dicide what he was sent to preach and do....

1 Cor 1:17 and 18....
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The Bible teaches that if a corn does not fall to the ground AND DIE, it cannot bear fruit again! If we do not DIE ON A CROSS, we cannot bear God's fruit. That DEATH IS Dieing off the old man, and the NEW LIFE is the INDWELLING SPIRIT OF GOD.

God will put HIS HOLY SPIRIT (SEED) in people HE SAVES untill HE IS DONE, on that day HIS SON RETURNS.

John the baptist said it best.... I baptize with water, but He shall baptize you with Holy Ghost, and with fire...

Please Lord me too, baptize me too, Amen!

You are very good at adding to what Paul said.

He said, 1 Corinthians 1:13 "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect."

Paul said he was not sent to lay the hands on anyone so that they could be baptized in the Holy Spirit, but he did do so with the household of Stephanas but did not know whether he had baptized any other.

Now use your head. If he had baptized in water he would have know whether or not he had baptized any other in water. But as he had prayed the holy spirit down upon the household he did not know who else might have also been Baptized by the Holy Spirit.

Go ahead and resist if you feel you must.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

kardiaoangelous,
i appreciate your experiences. they are yours.
whatever message you feel you have to impart, i do read your posts.

i suspect you're adapting as you go? which is fine.
but i thought you said you knew the whole thing already - it had already all been revealed to you.
this is why i don't really heed mystics much.

the Word can be trusted - God is not the author of confusion.

i have no idea what resistance you're talking about.
i just believe the Gospel.

repent and be baptized for the remission of sins and receive the spirit and eternal life,
through Jesus Christ Our Lord.

goodnight

Quite to the contrary, I have said many times before that I learn very often at the same time I am posting, so that I learn at the same time everyone else does.

I merely have complete faith that God helps me to do so. But I have much to learn yet and am eager to do so.

I also know that I will only injure that goal of learning if I would ever believe I am too correct in what I see of my own opinion.

God cannot teach one when one already thinks they know. So I always hold my general beliefs with a loose grip, all but for my faith that God will provide.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Acts 1:5 "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

Now, I have already told you that John's baptism was only for Jews as it was for forgiveness of their sins committed against that Old Law Covenant.

And you should easily understand that we do not need John's baptism since the death of Christ which that baptism pointed to, as that baptism was for forgiveness of sins against that Old Law Covenant but Jesus death forgave all sin.

So were is that second water baptism apparent in what the writer of Acts says at Acts 1:5?

It is clearly not.

 

[Cobus]

No water baptism has EVER made a person holy, or ONE WITH GOD.. but when God baptize with Holy Spirit that person is MADE ONE WITH GOD...


I would ask this to the WATER BAPTIZERS OF TODAY..... WHO'S EXAMPLE ARE YOU FOLLOWING? Many would say... Jesus, but then JESUS NEVER BAPTIZED ONE PERSON WITH WATER.... So there, STOP YOUR NONSENCE!


If God mentiones there is ONLY ONE BAPTISM.... In Eph 4... And JOHN THE BAPTIST, who was sent to PREPARE THE WAY FOR JESUS SAYS ... I baptize with WATER... But HE SHALL BAPTIZE WITH SPIRIT... that baptism is the ONE baptism... WATER OR SPIRIT...


ONLY ONE BAPTISM SAVES AND SEALS AND MAKES HOLY..... HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM....

 

[prodigal]

I was baptisted in prison the Anglican way, with a sprinkle, as such. Jesus never needed to be baptisted but he did it as an example for us to follow. I was later told it should have been full submersion. I did a study and it seems the ideal was what was known as live water, i.e. running water as in a river. When i look at scripture there are examples of new christians using whatever water was available.
Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, "See, [here is] water. What hinders me from being baptized?" Then Philip said, "If you believe with all your heart, you may." And he answered and said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." So he commanded the chariot to stand still. And both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and he baptized him.

The man on the cross next to Jesus apparently was not baptisted and was still going to be with Jesus in paradise.
So to me baptism is like a marriage, a declaration of our faith and something we should adhere to wherever possible.

 

[prodigal]

Above scripture is from Acts 8:36-39,
I would be weary of anyone who encourages you not to be baptisted.

 

[Cobus]

Prodical my point also comes from Acts 8.... Look at these verses...
Knowing Phillip baptized with water.... And he was a special man... Filled with the Holy Spirit, a deacn and an evangelist... BUT NOT A HOLY SPIRIT BAPTIZER...
he could prepare the people for salvation, but this happened to the city of Samaria...

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Act 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.


I WILL ALWAYS ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO BE BAPTIZED BY GOD!!!!

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Above scripture is from Acts 8:36-39,
I would be weary of anyone who encourages you not to be baptisted.

I would be, too.

That is why I pointed out in post #37 or 38 that was the eunuch's idea and we see that Stephen did not resist it.

Why stumble anyone by making an issue out of their need to use fleshly demonstrations? Water Baptism is like eating the bread which only pictured the eating of Christ's body and drinking the wine which only pictured the drinking of Christ's blood.

The only difference is that you are wrong that the water baptism is what was commanded.

Neither is good unless you appreciate the meaning so as to fulfill what they mean.

Only if you get baptized in water for forgiveness of sins then you in effect are saying Christ's death was not adequate to forgive you your sins.

Only a foolish person would think God would reject one who fulfilled their meaning while not actually doing the fleshly one time or once in a while demonstration.

Such a man knows not the God of love we serve.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Acts 8:16 " (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only [they, as in Peter and John] were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)"

By Greek grammar rules that second half of verse 16 definitely means "they" as in Peter and John.

Acts 8:14 akousantej de oi en ierosolumoij apostoloi oti dedektai h samareia ton logon tou qeou apesteilan proj autouj ton petron <[Peter] kai <[and] iwannhn <[John]

15 oitinej katabantej proshucanto peri autwn opwj labwsin pneuma agion

16 oupw <[not but yet] gar <[for] hn <[it was] ep <[upon] oudeni <[no one] autwn <[of them] epipeptwkoj <[having fallen upon], monon <[only] de <[they] bebaptismenoi <[having been baptized] uphrxon <[they were] eij <[into] to <the] onoma <[name] tou <[of the] kuriou <[Lord] ihsou <[Jesus]

17 tote <[then] epetiqoun <[they were putting] taj <[the] xeiraj <[hands] ep <[upon] autouj <[them], kai <[and] elambanon <[were receiving] pneuma <[spirit] agion <[holy]


As you can see, what Acts 8:16 literally says, is: "not but yet for it was upon no one of them having fallen on", in other words they were without anyone to lay hands upon them because the holy spirit had fallen on none of them,

and the last half of 16 tells of their only means to overcome that situation, saying, "only but having been baptized they <[clearly connected to the ones who] were into the Lord Jesus", which should be kept with verse 17, "then they <[clearly Peter and John] were putting the hands upon them, and they were receiving the Holy Spirit" <[clearly for the Samaritans or on their behalf].

 

[iamsoandso]

this was first brought up in post #2 of this thread,,,(thief on the cross). and i was watching for others to notice the introduction of two salvation's,that is,,,,

if the thief (was not yet under the new,still under the old),,,,then he was "saved",,without the cross,without the blood,without the Messiah ect.

as you point out tho this cannot be true. that is if those who lived before the cross were saved by another work other than the cross then there were no need for the cross. but as we know there is no other name,nor work(sacrifice) whereby any can be saved. from Adam to the cross,,,from the cross to us,to the last of man there is only the one salvation.

i am always afraid that some(i notice there are both members/guest shown on post as viewing) may not recognize "things spoken of",,,,and as i recognized the scriptures you are quoting thought others may not so thought i would post them for their behalf.

they are from john chapter 1,2,3 and 4,,,,,,,,,in ch.1;25 they ask john why "if he was not the Messiah,did he baptize". he then answers and then in john ch.1;33 states "the one who sent him to baptize (water),,told him of the one who would baptize with the(Holy Ghost).

chapter (2) seems to be out of spot at first,,bear in mind the marriage john speaks of in ch.3;29 when he is ask about baptism again. notice he is at "a marriage" in ch2;6 "after the purifying of the jews" it is his first miracle "water to new wine,this cup is my blood",,,bear this in mind when reading many scriptures in the Gospels,last supper,water,wine ect. it is referred to many times here after.

in ch.3;3-6 Christ explains "unless,,,,be born of water and spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of god",,,now the "thief" had to conform to this to enter,,,,yet some say he received no baptism. in ch.3;26 john is ask again about his "baptism of water",he(john) concludes in ch.3:29-30,,,,with "groom,bride,marriage(29 remember ch.2),then in verse 30 states "i(water baptism)must decrease,,,,,he(Holy Ghost),,must increase"

but water?,,,,,"this cup is my blood",,,,you are baptized in his blood.,,,,,,,,,,the water is turned to wine,,,,,,,

 

[kardiaoangelous]

this was first brought up in post #2 of this thread,,,(thief on the cross). and i was watching for others to notice the introduction of two salvation's,that is,,,,

if the thief (was not yet under the new,still under the old),,,,then he was "saved",,without the cross,without the blood,without the Messiah ect.

as you point out tho this cannot be true. that is if those who lived before the cross were saved by another work other than the cross then there were no need for the cross. but as we know there is no other name,nor work(sacrifice) whereby any can be saved. from Adam to the cross,,,from the cross to us,to the last of man there is only the one salvation.

i am always afraid that some(i notice there are both members/guest shown on post as viewing) may not recognize "things spoken of",,,,and as i recognized the scriptures you are quoting thought others may not so thought i would post them for their behalf.

they are from john chapter 1,2,3 and 4,,,,,,,,,in ch.1;25 they ask john why "if he was not the Messiah,did he baptize". he then answers and then in john ch.1;33 states "the one who sent him to baptize (water),,told him of the one who would baptize with the(Holy Ghost).

chapter (2) seems to be out of spot at first,,bear in mind the marriage john speaks of in ch.3;29 when he is ask about baptism again. notice he is at "a marriage" in ch2;6 "after the purifying of the jews" it is his first miracle "water to new wine,this cup is my blood",,,bear this in mind when reading many scriptures in the Gospels,last supper,water,wine ect. it is referred to many times here after.

in ch.3;3-6 Christ explains "unless,,,,be born of water and spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of god",,,now the "thief" had to conform to this to enter,,,,yet some say he received no baptism. in ch.3;26 john is ask again about his "baptism of water",he(john) concludes in ch.3:29-30,,,,with "groom,bride,marriage(29 remember ch.2),then in verse 30 states "i(water baptism)must decrease,,,,,he(Holy Ghost),,must increase"

but water?,,,,,"this cup is my blood",,,,you are baptized in his blood.,,,,,,,,,,the water is turned to wine,,,,,,,

Your reasoning shows true spiritual thinking. My spirit appreciates the connections your spirit has shown there. Clearly you are hearing God's spirit.

This was a crucial verse to appreciate, John 2:6 "And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece."

I see what compares to what you said in that shortly thereafter John spoke of Jesus' zeal toward the cleansing of God's temple and then of, John 2:19 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
21 But he spake of the temple of his body."

Jesus body' is that vessel of the water turned into wine and that temple for the curing of the nations. And we know that body to be his bride or church.

Then as we proceed on into chapter 3 of John we find, John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Thus this set the theme for being born of baptism by the Holy Spirit. And it is interesting to follow it from there.

 

[iamsoandso]

yes it is my friend,,,our salvation,our baptism was so important he did not leave it to the hands of men to accomplish,(works of men),,,he rather took our life and baptized us of his own work(cross).

this is 2013,,i was born on the cross at Calvary. before the cross i was dead unto the father and could not stand before him. being dead i needed to be resurrected from the dead. i(bride) was weak and my husband(Christ) was strong. i am joined(married) bone of my bone flesh of my flesh to my husband(Christ).

as the husband was resurrected so the bride also,one body,one flesh,one baptism. no man can save me by works but my husband,Christ. there is only one who is the first born of the dead,the son of god. a righteous man is saved,and his whole house. my husband is a righteous man,and i am his wife. where then is my husband i am also.

my husband plows the field,he gives me the food to prepare. he has built me the whole house. i am the bride(church),,,i am provided for by my husband(Christ).i do not protect me,my husband protects me. i do not save me,my husband saves me. once i was of another sir-name,my husband wrote his sir-name on my head(at the wedding),his sir-name is the name of his father. and i am of my husbands fathers house.

we are the bride,we are resurrected with our husband.,,,,you have said the truth about,,,"the theme for being born ect.",,,,,i watched for a while and thought "the marriage in ch. 2,,,,they cannot see it unless they see the marriage"

i raveled on a bit,to show the example of the bride,and the husband who is the worker of the house. the apostle john was inspiring to me in his letters he repeats "my children",,"my children",,,,with great love. that is he spoke of us as if he were the bride of the husband,addressing the children,he was about the works of attending to his husbands house.

hanging the curtains,sweeping the floors. washing the clothes,feeding the children,making the beds. all of the business of the wife(church),,,,and the husband was giving us life,providing us food,giving the water,loving his whole house,,,,,,,,,,,,,this is what i was told to expect by my husband,,,i was the same i will see when we go to his fathers house,,,,the love of the husband he received in the fathers house.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

yes it is my friend,,,our salvation,our baptism was so important he did not leave it to the hands of men to accomplish,(works of men),,,he rather took our life and baptized us of his own work(cross).

this is 2013,,i was born on the cross at Calvary. before the cross i was dead unto the father and could not stand before him. being dead i needed to be resurrected from the dead. i(bride) was weak and my husband(Christ) was strong. i am joined(married) bone of my bone flesh of my flesh to my husband(Christ).

as the husband was resurrected so the bride also,one body,one flesh,one baptism. no man can save me by works but my husband,Christ. there is only one who is the first born of the dead,the son of god. a righteous man is saved,and his whole house. my husband is a righteous man,and i am his wife. where then is my husband i am also.

my husband plows the field,he gives me the food to prepare. he has built me the whole house. i am the bride(church),,,i am provided for by my husband(Christ).i do not protect me,my husband protects me. i do not save me,my husband saves me. once i was of another sir-name,my husband wrote his sir-name on my head(at the wedding),his sir-name is the name of his father. and i am of my husbands fathers house.

we are the bride,we are resurrected with our husband.,,,,you have said the truth about,,,"the theme for being born ect.",,,,,i watched for a while and thought "the marriage in ch. 2,,,,they cannot see it unless they see the marriage"

i raveled on a bit,to show the example of the bride,and the husband who is the worker of the house. the apostle john was inspiring to me in his letters he repeats "my children",,"my children",,,,with great love. that is he spoke of us as if he were the bride of the husband,addressing the children,he was about the works of attending to his husbands house.

hanging the curtains,sweeping the floors. washing the clothes,feeding the children,making the beds. all of the business of the wife(church),,,,and the husband was giving us life,providing us food,giving the water,loving his whole house,,,,,,,,,,,,,this is what i was told to expect by my husband,,,i was the same i will see when we go to his fathers house,,,,the love of the husband he received in the fathers house.

What a beautiful picture, expressed in simple and modern terms. That carried the sound of the love expressed in Solomon's Song combined with so much else we have learned in the scriptures.