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J

Jordache

Guest
#1
I know I'm going to ruffle some feathers, and to be honest my feathers are a little ruffled. I've been a Christian for almost 15 years, and I always took things at face value. I always had a measure of childlike faith. While that was good, it has also left me with little in the way of defense when it comes to talking intellectually (and sometimes logically) about my convictions. I know this topic is brought up just about every other breath, but I bring it up one more time in hopes to see it form a new angle. What is the topic, you ask? Broadly I supposed it would be "sexual immorality", but to be more specific I'd prefer to narrow it down to a not-so-simple question (or two): Is sex before marriage between consenting adults who are both unmarried and not prostituting themselves a sin? Why is it or is it not?
I wonder myself why this has even become a question for me. I've never been one to side with the newest floating opinion. I like tradition and long-standing tradition say it plainly: sex before marriage is a sin. In my own pursuit to strengthen my convictions in this area, I went on a search to find solid BIBLICAL evidence to support my traditional viewpoint. Much to my amazement, the legitimate sources I uncovered almost all said the same thing. The word translated into english as "fornication" in the KJV and "sexual immorality" in the NIV is porneia. In it's original meaning, porneia mentions no correlation to sex between consenting, committed, unmarried adults. In the greek, porneia is "illicit sexual immorality: adultery, fornication, homosexuality, beastiality, incest, sex with a divorced person; metaphorically - the worship of idols." The only verse I can find that is a bit more specific is 1 Cor. 1:7. This is the passage where Paul specifically states that he is giving his opinion regarding men and women marrying in order to avoid porneia. I do see a clearer connection, but it's still a bit muddled for me. Paul doesn't specify the sexual immorality he's seeking to remedy. Perhaps he was only referring to people seeking sexual expression with prostitutes or animals, rather than a spouse. I guess we don't really know the exact situation.
Another argument I saw was taken from Genesis in the account of Adam and Eve. Both there and in the new testament there seems to be a specific order to how things go in God's kingdom. In the leave and cleave passages, the oneness union is always saved for last after those involved have left their parents, and cleaved to their spouse with the approval of their parents.
In my search I've found a lot of what I would consider more psychologically based arguments against premarital sex.

Rather than keep spouting off my ideas, I'd like to hear from you. I wish this to be a non-judgemental argument. Mind you, I am not in a sexual relationship, I am simply searching out my faith. There is no need for judgement, harsh words, or accusations of anyone who chooses to participate. We don't all have to agree, but we all must remember the goal is love.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,539
113
#2
Well our modern culture has a very broad view of what is acceptable behavior. I would point to Gal 5:16-25 where a contrast is made for the believer between the flesh and the Spirit. If we are Christians we are to be like Christ. Do physical relations between a man and a woman who are not married glorify Christ? A high standard not achieved apart from the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#3
Rather than keep spouting off my ideas, I'd like to hear from you. I wish this to be a non-judgemental argument. Mind you, I am not in a sexual relationship, I am simply searching out my faith. There is no need for judgement, harsh words, or accusations of anyone who chooses to participate. We don't all have to agree, but we all must remember the goal is love.
ummm hope you get it but have to warn you that people get pretty heated and "intellectual" around here and not always in a good way.....

i think if you have consensual sex with a person you have joined with them and have either just married yourself to them or committed fornication or adultery depending if you are already married or not, but most people won't agree.

***note: consensual does not include cases such as rape or molestation***
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#4
The word translated into english as "fornication" in the KJV and "sexual immorality" in the NIV is porneia. In it's original meaning, porneia mentions no correlation to sex between consenting, committed, unmarried adults. In the greek, porneia is "illicit sexual immorality: adultery, fornication, homosexuality, beastiality, incest, sex with a divorced person; metaphorically - the worship of idols."
What is your source that says sex outside of marriage doesn't fit in that laundry list of things you have under the heading of the Greek word porneia?

That sounds like a rather inclusive and flexible word that covers a lot of sexual behaviors, so why is unmarried sex not within its scope?

What evidence do you have that unmarried sex doesn't fall within the scope of illicit sexual immorality?
 
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damombomb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2011
3,801
68
48
#5
1Cor6:18-2018Flee fornication. Every sin that a man does is without the body; but he that commits fornication sins against his own body. 19What? know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which you have of God, and you are not your own? 20For you are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
 
J

Jordache

Guest
#6
Roger,
I understand what you are saying. Thank you for the reference. My issue with this is that it's still using the same word "porneia" when referring to sexual immorality which I've already established doesn't really include pre-marital sex between consenting, committed, unmarried adults. Christians are to be like Christ, but Christ did not have any sexual relationships, thus leading us to conclude (albeit in a very strict interpretation of that statement) that we should forsake sex altogether. However, I don't think that's really biblical either or there would be no command to multiply, become one, or guidelines for marriage at all.
Do physical relations between an unmarried man and woman glorify God? This is precisely my question... at least one of them. Does it? What exactly must the relationship be if the physical act is to be glorifying to God. Certainly, in Romans Paul speaks of honoring the law of God and the land. So, perhaps that is a point to be made. However, in biblical times marriage was completely different. So, to God, what is the definition of marriage may be another question to explore. Yes, there is man's law which Paul encourages us to respect.
I do find it interesting that in the context of this verse Paul ends with the encouragement to bear the fruit of the spirit: love, joy, peace, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Certainly, these do fall under the category of things one may not bare while in a premature sexual relationship. However, it begs the question: at what point does sex go from being considered a lack of self-control, a lack of kindness (or the honoring of oneself or of a loved one), or a lack of faithfulness assuming you do not marry the one you engage with? Thanks for your input Roger.

Ariel, thanks for your input also. I do understand that this is a heated topic. However, I think we should all be comfortable to talk about it. It's obviously a big part of life... and dare I say an important part of life. If I do not offer my wishes and guidelines for this conversation upfront, then I've just shot myself in the foot. While there will certainly be those who trample harshly on those they disagree with, it would be wrong of me not to at least attempt to set this conversation up to be a loving dialogue between brothers and sisters in Christ. But I think it's also important to remember that things in type do not meant he same thing they mean in a face to face conversation. Tone of voice, facial expression, and body language do not translate and we often interpret anothers communication through our own lenses. This is something to be aware of. However, even in our own communications, we also sometimes communicate things we don't realize we have in us. Sometimes we are offended and we respond in offense (or defensively) without even realizing the source from which we speak. This is also something to be considered.
You are correct, Ariel, that many will not agree with you. I personally don't agree with you, but I pass no judgement on you. IN fact I thank you for being brave enough to share an opinion which you know very well could cause a lot of backlash for yourself. That being said, and this being a friendly sharing of ideas, allow me to share just why I don't agree with your above statement.
Most people will quote several OT passages to support the point you have laid out above. However, they are all decontextualized which is very dangerous. OT law did say that anyone who had sex should marry. However, that marriage was dependent upon whether or not the father of the woman would consent to the marriage. If the father did not want his daughter to marry the man, then the man was forced to pay for deflowering the daughter. So, marriage was not the ultimate outcome of sex. Was it an good option to explore? Perhaps. But it seems more so that God was showing the value of a marriage between good people, rather than the necessity to marry following intercourse. I hope this makes sense.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#7
1 Thes 4
[SUP]3 [/SUP]It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; [SUP]4 [/SUP]that each of you should learn to control your own body[SUP][a][/SUP] in a way that is holy and honorable, [SUP]5 [/SUP]not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God; [SUP]6 [/SUP]and that in this matter no one should wrong or take advantage of a brother or sister.[SUP][b][/SUP] The Lord will punish all those who commit such sins, as we told you and warned you before. [SUP]7 [/SUP]For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Therefore, anyone who rejects this instruction does not reject a human being but God, the very God who gives you his Holy Spirit.
Sex is not supposed to be based on passionate lust.

If two people are having sex and are not married, is that really within the context of true love between a man and woman?
Isn't true love between man and woman realized in marriage?

I'd say if two consenting people are having sex outside of marriage, it's more about LUST and not LOVE. Because if it was about LOVE they'd be married. Thus it's wrong, because sex shouldn't be done with passionate lust.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#8
Most people will quote several OT passages to support the point you have laid out above. However, they are all decontextualized which is very dangerous. OT law did say that anyone who had sex should marry. However, that marriage was dependent upon whether or not the father of the woman would consent to the marriage. If the father did not want his daughter to marry the man, then the man was forced to pay for deflowering the daughter. So, marriage was not the ultimate outcome of sex. Was it an good option to explore? Perhaps. But it seems more so that God was showing the value of a marriage between good people, rather than the necessity to marry following intercourse. I hope this makes sense.
in context those girls were virgins and seduced.

In context those verses are embedded in Old Covenant laws that were given to try and keep people from sinning further after already rejecting direct communication with GOd.

In those days men were allowed to have more than one wife, but the NT shows the wisdom of people having only ONE wife.

Exodus 22
[h=3][/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]“If a man entices a virgin who is not betrothed, and lies with her, he shall surely pay the bride-price for her to be his wife. [SUP]17 [/SUP]If her father utterly refuses to give her to him, he shall pay money according to the bride-price of virgins.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]“You shall not permit a sorceress to live.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]“Whoever lies with an animal shall surely be put to death.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“He who sacrifices to any god, except to the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]“You shall neither mistreat a stranger nor oppress him, for you were strangers in the land of Egypt.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]“You shall not afflict any widow or fatherless child. [SUP]23 [/SUP]If you afflict them in any way, and they cry at all to Me, I will surely hear their cry; [SUP]24 [/SUP]and My wrath will become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

I think it would be a great discussion about what GOD views as marriage. I tend to follow the NT descriptions of marriage more than the OT ones.

I always wonder what happens to the daughter that had sex but not allowed to marry the man who seduced her.

Did she ever get married to someone else or did she have to wait until that man died?

adultery is grounds for divorce but does it allow for remarriage? I wonder what the Bible says about it.

I know alot of remarried couples who truly love each other and God so, its one of the topics I thought about.
 
J

Jordache

Guest
#9
I stated the full definition of porneia above. There are specific references to the specific meaning of illicit sexual intercourse.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#10
I stated the full definition of porneia above. There are specific references to the specific meaning of illicit sexual intercourse.
What's your source for that definition of porneia?

I've heard some in favor of gay sex say that committed gay sex doesn't fall within the scope of that word either.
It seems to be a very flexible word for some liberal types.
So I'm asking the source to see if your source is something like www.ImARampantLiberalChristian.net
 
Mar 29, 2013
353
4
0
#11
Id like to repoint out his question about what is marrige... we have what is considerd common law marrige which is where if u live with someone a certain amout of time an pay bills an do taxes togather your considerd married eveb though you have no licens whod you say its a sin for them to have sex.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#12
he KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 320"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] Strong's Number: 4202[/TD]
[TD="width: 120, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Word Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]porneiva[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from (4203)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Porneia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]6:579,918[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]por-ni'-ah[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Noun Feminine[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]
  1. illicit sexual intercourse
    1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
    2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
    3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,
  2. metaph. the worship of idols
    1. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] King James Word Usage - Total: 26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]fornication 26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 150"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] KJV Verse Count[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Matthew[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mark[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Acts[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Romans[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 Corinthians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2 Corinthians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Galatians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ephesians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Colossians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 Thessalonians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Revelation[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Revelation 2:21; Revelation 9:21; Revelation 18:3; Revelation 19:2 - King James Version - KJV - Online Bible Study


John 8
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. [SUP]40 [/SUP]But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. [SUP]41 [/SUP]You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.




2 Nevertheless , to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1 Corinthians 7:36

But if any man thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, if she is past the flower of youth, and thus it must be, let him do what he wishes. He does not sin; let them marry.


I think God shows us that He wants people to be married when they have sex and there are some strong words against men who go around seducing women and women who seduce or have sex with a lot of men who they are NOT married to.

however God is able to forgive and cleanse people.
 
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1

1still_waters

Guest
#13
he KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 320"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD] Strong's Number: 4202[/TD]
[TD="width: 120, align: center"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Original Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Word Origin[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]porneiva[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from (4203)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Transliterated Word[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]TDNT Entry[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Porneia[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]6:579,918[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]Phonetic Spelling[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Parts of Speech[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 50%"]por-ni'-ah[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]Noun Feminine[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]
  1. illicit sexual intercourse
    1. adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
    2. sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
    3. sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,
  2. metaph. the worship of idols
    1. of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] King James Word Usage - Total: 26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"]fornication 26[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[TD="width: 150"][TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2"] KJV Verse Count[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Matthew[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mark[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]John[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Acts[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Romans[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 Corinthians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]4[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2 Corinthians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Galatians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ephesians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Colossians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 Thessalonians[/TD]
[TD="align: right"]1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Revelation[/TD]
[TD="align: right"][/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Revelation 2:21; Revelation 9:21; Revelation 18:3; Revelation 19:2 - King James Version - KJV - Online Bible Study


John 8
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. [SUP]40 [/SUP]But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. [SUP]41 [/SUP]You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
[SUP]42 [/SUP]Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.




2 Nevertheless , to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

1 Corinthians 7:36

But if any man thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, if she is past the flower of youth, and thus it must be, let him do what he wishes. He does not sin; let them marry.


I think God shows us that He wants people to be married when they have sex and there are some strong words against men who go around seducing women and women who seduce or have sex with a lot of men who they are NOT married to.

however God is able to forgive and cleanse people.
I see "fornication" is within the scope of porneia.

What is the definition/scope of fornication?
 
Mar 29, 2013
353
4
0
#14
Ariel i agree going around seducin women or men or just having sex with alot of diff mean is sinful... but i belive what he is talkin about or atlest what i was in my post is two people who have been in a relationship thwt love each other an plan on staying togather i dont think its a sin for them to have sex. Even if they dont have a pice of paper saying there married.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#15
I see "fornication" is within the scope of porneia.

What is the definition/scope of fornication?
From dictionary.com for what it's worth.

[h=2]for·ni·ca·tion[/h] [fawr-ni-key-shuh
n
] Show IPA

noun1.voluntary sexual intercourse between two unmarried persons ortwo persons not married to each other.

2.Bible. idolatry.


 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#16
So porneia includes fornication according to Strongs. Link-->http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-biblically-based-discussion.html#post1037816

The original poster of this thread agrees fornication falls within the scope of porneia.
In the greek, porneia is "illicit sexual immorality: adultery, fornication, homosexuality, beastiality, incest, sex with a divorced person; metaphorically -
link-->http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-biblically-based-discussion.html#post1037625



The dictionary defines fornication as voluntary sexual intercourse between twounmarried persons
link--->
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-biblically-based-discussion.html#post1037824

Bible verses that are against fornication.
Using the all mighty KJV!

1 Thes 4:13 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:

Galatians 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
 
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A

Ariel82

Guest
#17
I guess the question is what can be consider fornication?

I've been reading through Bible verses and just wanted to share... and no I don't have a point to my thoughts yet....

Hebrews 13
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Remember the prisoners as if chained with them—those who are mistreated—since you yourselves are in the body also. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]6 [/SUP]So we may boldly say:
“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?”[SUP][b]

[/SUP]http://static.justchristians.com/abundantLife/092002/3.html

<just researching, its what I do when a topic catches my interest>Liberated Christians on "porneia"

Does "sexual immorality" (porneia) include masturbation?

some varying views on the debate......

[SUP]
[/SUP]

Fornication: "The New Testament is characterized by an unconditional repudiation of all extra-marital and unnatural intercourse" [Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Vol. 6, pg. 590].

hmm will continue reading scripture and research topic later, but I still think that i will tell my kids that they shouldn't kiss anyone they don't plan to marry and have babies with much less do anything else beyond kissing.

I've learned I'm somewhat of a conservative prude when it comes to sex and I'm ok with that.


One can also go through the Septuagint translation of the Old Testament to see what Hebrew words were translated to porneia to get an idea of what the word meant. You will find:

 
J

Jordache

Guest
#18
Thanks Ariel. I got my info from blueletterbible.com but from the biblical dictionary they have as a resource. The only difference is that mine said 4202. :)

Ok, so what is the definition of fornication? What is the word supposed to mean in greek as that is the meaning we should be considering.

Homosexuality: While some may say that consented homosexual sex is right, the meaning of porneia simply states porneia. It's makes no accommodations for consentual, "married" or committed, or any other form of sex.... it simply says homosexuals sex no matter how it's packaged is wrong.
Ariel, good points... but in 1 Cor. 1:7 Paul speaks about getting married (a legal ceremony) in order to abstain from sexual immorality. Why would he not just say, "well, now you're married. Be committed to one another because you are married in the eyes of God."

Illicit: not permitted or authorized by law
not disapproved of or not permitted for moral or ethical reasons.
So, sex with minors is illicit because it's prohibited by law. Unconsentual sex is prohibited by law.
However, another question arises. Premarital sex is disapproved of by the majority of Christians at least by profession. They disapprove based on moral and ethical reasons. However, are those moral or ethical reasons biblically sound? Are we going by our own judgements, or should we base what is illicit on God's definition of morality and ethics? Certainly if it were all about man's opinion the decision would be much more cut and dry. However, I still don't see a completely clear statement as to God's opinion.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#19
I guess the question is what can be consider fornication?

I've been reading through Bible verses and just wanted to share... and no I don't have a point to my thoughts yet....

Hebrews 13
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Remember the prisoners as if chained with them—those who are mistreated—since you yourselves are in the body also. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, “I will never leave you nor forsake you.”[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]6 [/SUP]So we may boldly say:
“The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?”[SUP][b]

[/SUP]http://static.justchristians.com/abundantLife/092002/3.html

<just researching, its what I do when a topic catches my interest>Liberated Christians on "porneia"

Does "sexual immorality" (porneia) include masturbation?

some varying views on the debate......

[SUP]
We must have been posting at the same time. :p

My answer for the scope of fornication, and what the Bible says...--->http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...-biblically-based-discussion.html#post1037828

Spoiler alert..fornication is sex between unmarried people and the bible is against it.
 
J

Jordache

Guest
#20
Still_Waters,
I do see your point, but again you are using an English dictionary to define a greek concept. It's a logical fallacy. If you can find the greek synonym for fornication then that could prove your point. But the fact is the greek synonym is porneia. Porneia doesn't necessarily include consentual sex between committed adults. I do appreciate the scripture reference but again the question is what truly causes the marriage bed to be defiled?