Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching was NOT created by Darby

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ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
113
63
#1
Hello everyone, I just wanted to share this post with you all to show you that Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching was not a modern invention by Darby and Scofield. I realize that more and more people are coming out with this silly notion, idea, and claim that Dispensationalism was not taught before the time of John Nelson Darby. And because a lot of people don't do their own research and study into the matter, a lot of them end up believing the false claim that Dispensationalism wasn't around before the 1800s.

So the purpose of this post is to simply show you that Dispensational Bible Teaching was around long before the 1800s. In fact, your going to find that it was even around in the Second Century.

So to begin; here are some of the Dispensation Systems and layouts which were developed way before Darby was even born:


William Gouge who was born in 1575, developed the following the follwing 6 Dispensations Layout: Adam to Noah; Noah to Abraham; Abraham to David; David to the Captivity; the Captivity to the Birth of Christ; the Birth of Christ to the Great White Throne Judgment. Now what should be pointed out is that Gouge's system left out the Mosaic Covenant. And in regard to Gouge's layout, Dr. Peter Ruckman pointed out that his layout ended up "spiritualizing three-fourths of the Old Testament, teaching no restoration of Israel, and no Millennial Reign."
(Ruckman, How To Teach Dispensational Truth, Pg.6)


Another Dispensational System and layout that was given before John Nelson Darby's time was that of Pierre Poiret (1646-1719). And Poiret gave a Premillennial System. He gave the following Dispensational System by describing the following: "The Oeconomy of the Creation; the Oeconomy of Sin; the Oeconomy of the Restoration; the Oeconomy of the Incarnation; the Oeconomy of the Cooperation of Man with the Operation of God, and the Oeconomy of Universal Providence. And Poiret's seventh Dispensation was a physical, literal, one thousand year reign of Jesus Christ (according to Arnold Ehlert; in his work, A Bibliographic History of Dispensationalism [ Grand Rapids: Baker book House, 1965], p. 35).

So to sum up Poiret's Dispensational System, he had Seven Dispensations in Six volumes.


Isaac Watts (1674-1748) also discerned that there were Divisions and Dispensations in the Holy Bible, and this was his Dispensational Set up: "The Dispensation of Innocency; The Dispensation of the Covenant of Grace; The Noahical Dispensation; The Abrahamical Dispensation, The Mosaical Dispensation, and the Christian Dispensation. Now what should be obvious to point out though, Mr. Watts did miss the Davidic Covenant. Plus, he also missed the Pre-tribulation Rapture, the Tribulation (Time of Jacob's Trouble), the Restoration of Israel, and the Millennium.


And here are some more Dispensational Systems which have been developed and worked out long before John Nelson Darby's time (1800 - 1882).


John Taylor of Norwich (1694-1751), John Flechiere (1729-1785), John Priestley (1733-1804), David Bogue ( 1750-1825), Adam Clarke (1762-1832), George Faber (1773-1843), and David Russell (1779-1848).


And all these Dispensatuional Systems were worked out before John Darby, C.I. Scofied (1843-1921), and Clarence Larkin (1850-1924).


So contrary to the popular misteaching that Dispensational Bible study and Teaching was somehow first developed by Darby, the quite opposite is the truth. And the simple truth of the matter is that Dispensational Bible Study has been around for a very long time. And while Darby, Scofield, and Larkin all did a great work in the study of Dispensational Bible Study; and while they with their books and other works have surely contributed greatly to this unique and Biblical system and method of Bible Study, these three men were by no means the first to discover different ages and dispensations in God's holy word.


According to Crutchfield, Justin Martyr (AD 100-165), believed in four phases of human history in God's program.


First phase was from Adam to Abraham
Second Phase was from Abraham to Moses
The Third was from Moses to Christ
And the Fourth was from Christ to the Eternal State (Eternity).


Alongside Justin Martyr was Irenaeus (AD120-202), and his Dispensational Theme went like this:


1. From the Creation to the Flood.
2. From the Flood to the Law.
3. From the Law to the Gospel.
4. From the Gospel to the Eternal State.


So Irenaeus's Dispensational layout was quite similar to Justin Martyr's in that both of their Dispensational layouts had four ages or dispensations to them.


Furthermore, Irenaeus taught that there were four zones of the world and of mankind. He saw a connection between the four zones, the faces of the four living creatures, the four gospels, and the four dispensations.


And to conclude, I will include here a quote by Crutchfield in a study he did in regard to the very early Dispensational Layouts of Martyr and Irenaeus in comparison to the modern Dispensational Systems:


"Some Fathers set forth only four such dispensations, others came very close to making nearly the same divisions modern dispensationalists do, Irenaeus, Victorinus of Petau, and Methodius' number of dispensations is artificially restricted to four ... the dispensations are most often spoken of the early fathers in terms of the prominent persons (Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Christ). Dispensational divisions were customarily made along the boundaries of these five men's lives and times." - Crutchfiled concludes in his own study on the history of Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching.


So again, don't believe the false statement that Dispensationalsm only recently came about by Darby and Larkin. This falsehood and lie is continually made by those who simply refuse to be dispensational and who refuse to obey the command given in 2 Timothy 2:15. Hence, false prophets like Steven Anderson who fails to rightly divide the word of truth, are constantly attacking the Biblical system of Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching.



And for those of you out there who are interested in taking a look into Dispensational Bible Teaching and Study, I recommend Larkin's book: Dispensational Truth, Dr. Doug Stauffer's One Book Rightly Divided, and also Dr. Peter Ruckman's book: How To Tach Dispensational Truth.

There is also a wealth of good sermons out there on Dispensational Truth that you can find simply by going onwww.Sermonaudio.com

Bryan Denlinger does a couple of sermons on this subject, as does Gregory A. Miller, Alan Cairns, and Elder Ronald Lawrence. I highly recommend all of them.

Well everyone, I hope this helped. And please prayerfully consider in studying this matter. It is so important for students of the Bible to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth. To learn how to discover the ages and different dispensations in the Holy Scriptures. The different Dispensations which God has clearly placed in His word. And to acknowledge that those divisions, ages, and dispensations are there.
 
T

TomH

Guest
#2
Hello everyone, I just wanted to share this post with you all to show you that Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching was not a modern invention by Darby and Scofield. I realize that more and more people are coming out with this silly notion, idea, and claim that Dispensationalism was not taught before the time of John Nelson Darby. And because a lot of people don't do their own research and study into the matter, a lot of them end up believing the false claim that Dispensationalism wasn't around before the 1800s.

So the purpose of this post is to simply show you that Dispensational Bible Teaching was around long before the 1800s. In fact, your going to find that it was even around in the Second Century.

So to begin; here are some of the Dispensation Systems and layouts which were developed way before Darby was even born:


William Gouge who was born in 1575, developed the following the follwing 6 Dispensations Layout: Adam to Noah; Noah to Abraham; Abraham to David; David to the Captivity; the Captivity to the Birth of Christ; the Birth of Christ to the Great White Throne Judgment. Now what should be pointed out is that Gouge's system left out the Mosaic Covenant. And in regard to Gouge's layout, Dr. Peter Ruckman pointed out that his layout ended up "spiritualizing three-fourths of the Old Testament, teaching no restoration of Israel, and no Millennial Reign."
(Ruckman, How To Teach Dispensational Truth, Pg.6)


Another Dispensational System and layout that was given before John Nelson Darby's time was that of Pierre Poiret (1646-1719). And Poiret gave a Premillennial System. He gave the following Dispensational System by describing the following: "The Oeconomy of the Creation; the Oeconomy of Sin; the Oeconomy of the Restoration; the Oeconomy of the Incarnation; the Oeconomy of the Cooperation of Man with the Operation of God, and the Oeconomy of Universal Providence. And Poiret's seventh Dispensation was a physical, literal, one thousand year reign of Jesus Christ (according to Arnold Ehlert; in his work, A Bibliographic History of Dispensationalism [ Grand Rapids: Baker book House, 1965], p. 35).

So to sum up Poiret's Dispensational System, he had Seven Dispensations in Six volumes.


Isaac Watts (1674-1748) also discerned that there were Divisions and Dispensations in the Holy Bible, and this was his Dispensational Set up: "The Dispensation of Innocency; The Dispensation of the Covenant of Grace; The Noahical Dispensation; The Abrahamical Dispensation, The Mosaical Dispensation, and the Christian Dispensation. Now what should be obvious to point out though, Mr. Watts did miss the Davidic Covenant. Plus, he also missed the Pre-tribulation Rapture, the Tribulation (Time of Jacob's Trouble), the Restoration of Israel, and the Millennium.


And here are some more Dispensational Systems which have been developed and worked out long before John Nelson Darby's time (1800 - 1882).


John Taylor of Norwich (1694-1751), John Flechiere (1729-1785), John Priestley (1733-1804), David Bogue ( 1750-1825), Adam Clarke (1762-1832), George Faber (1773-1843), and David Russell (1779-1848).


And all these Dispensatuional Systems were worked out before John Darby, C.I. Scofied (1843-1921), and Clarence Larkin (1850-1924).


So contrary to the popular misteaching that Dispensational Bible study and Teaching was somehow first developed by Darby, the quite opposite is the truth. And the simple truth of the matter is that Dispensational Bible Study has been around for a very long time. And while Darby, Scofield, and Larkin all did a great work in the study of Dispensational Bible Study; and while they with their books and other works have surely contributed greatly to this unique and Biblical system and method of Bible Study, these three men were by no means the first to discover different ages and dispensations in God's holy word.


According to Crutchfield, Justin Martyr (AD 100-165), believed in four phases of human history in God's program.


First phase was from Adam to Abraham
Second Phase was from Abraham to Moses
The Third was from Moses to Christ
And the Fourth was from Christ to the Eternal State (Eternity).


Alongside Justin Martyr was Irenaeus (AD120-202), and his Dispensational Theme went like this:


1. From the Creation to the Flood.
2. From the Flood to the Law.
3. From the Law to the Gospel.
4. From the Gospel to the Eternal State.


So Irenaeus's Dispensational layout was quite similar to Justin Martyr's in that both of their Dispensational layouts had four ages or dispensations to them.


Furthermore, Irenaeus taught that there were four zones of the world and of mankind. He saw a connection between the four zones, the faces of the four living creatures, the four gospels, and the four dispensations.


And to conclude, I will include here a quote by Crutchfield in a study he did in regard to the very early Dispensational Layouts of Martyr and Irenaeus in comparison to the modern Dispensational Systems:


"Some Fathers set forth only four such dispensations, others came very close to making nearly the same divisions modern dispensationalists do, Irenaeus, Victorinus of Petau, and Methodius' number of dispensations is artificially restricted to four ... the dispensations are most often spoken of the early fathers in terms of the prominent persons (Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Christ). Dispensational divisions were customarily made along the boundaries of these five men's lives and times." - Crutchfiled concludes in his own study on the history of Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching.


So again, don't believe the false statement that Dispensationalsm only recently came about by Darby and Larkin. This falsehood and lie is continually made by those who simply refuse to be dispensational and who refuse to obey the command given in 2 Timothy 2:15. Hence, false prophets like Steven Anderson who fails to rightly divide the word of truth, are constantly attacking the Biblical system of Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching.



And for those of you out there who are interested in taking a look into Dispensational Bible Teaching and Study, I recommend Larkin's book: Dispensational Truth, Dr. Doug Stauffer's One Book Rightly Divided, and also Dr. Peter Ruckman's book: How To Tach Dispensational Truth.

There is also a wealth of good sermons out there on Dispensational Truth that you can find simply by going onwww.Sermonaudio.com

Bryan Denlinger does a couple of sermons on this subject, as does Gregory A. Miller, Alan Cairns, and Elder Ronald Lawrence. I highly recommend all of them.

Well everyone, I hope this helped. And please prayerfully consider in studying this matter. It is so important for students of the Bible to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth. To learn how to discover the ages and different dispensations in the Holy Scriptures. The different Dispensations which God has clearly placed in His word. And to acknowledge that those divisions, ages, and dispensations are there.
Thanks for the info and offer to read some more, bro, but I read so much yesterday on Dispensationalism vs. Convenant theology that I got burned out after a while. I just wanted to familiarize myself with the terminology because folks on this site debate about it. I've never really been interested in theology, just studying scripture. I understand where you're coming from though.
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
#3
UMM Quick question for you Chosen,

Doesn't dispensation fly in the face of Hebrews 11? Doesn't Hebrews 11 point to the fact that all the men and women of faith were declared righteous by FAITH? Wasn't Abraham declared righteous by FAITH? Every single one BELIEVED and obeyed God. Isn't the time when Abraham went to sacrifice Issac a shadow of what was to come? So how do these things work within dispensation? If all were declared righteous by faith then how is that so much DIFFERENT then Christians being declared righteous by faith in Christ? Remember the Old Testament points forward to Christ,the New Testament points back to what He has already done. So how is it different in that both Old and New Testament believers were declared righteous by FAITH?
 

Angela53510

Senior Member
Jan 24, 2011
11,786
2,957
113
#4
I think perhaps the OP is a little mixed up about what is being said about dispensationalism. The MODERN version of this was started by Darby, and has continued to grow, esp. with the popularity of the Scofield Bible and tele-evangelists.

Your post also makes one think, that if a doctrine keeps getting restarted, and no one believes it, is it really Biblical? Or is it just another heresy in different forms? I have always thought dispensationalism was wrong, long before I heard teaching on it. It is just not in the Bible. What is in the Bible is salvation by faith.
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
#5
I think perhaps the OP is a little mixed up about what is being said about dispensationalism. The MODERN version of this was started by Darby, and has continued to grow, esp. with the popularity of the Scofield Bible and tele-evangelists.

Your post also makes one think, that if a doctrine keeps getting restarted, and no one believes it, is it really Biblical? Or is it just another heresy in different forms? I have always thought dispensationalism was wrong, long before I heard teaching on it. It is just not in the Bible. What is in the Bible is salvation by faith.
They like to leave verses like this out

Old Testament

Genesis 15

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Habakkuk 2

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Behold, his soul which is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

Which also parallels New Testament

Romans 1

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.[SUP]17 [/SUP]For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[SUP][e][/SUP] just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”


Romans 4

4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? [SUP]2 [/SUP]If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”[SUP][a][/SUP]
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. [SUP]5 [/SUP]However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. [SUP]6 [/SUP]David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]“Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness. [SUP]10 [/SUP]Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before! [SUP]11 [/SUP]And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]And he is then also the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised but who also follow in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, [SUP]15 [/SUP]because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. [SUP]17 [/SUP]As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[SUP][c][/SUP] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

HMM Paul uses Old Testament believers to speak on righteousness through faith. Should make one think.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#6
I think perhaps the OP is a little mixed up about what is being said about dispensationalism. The MODERN version of this was started by Darby, and has continued to grow, esp. with the popularity of the Scofield Bible and tele-evangelists.

Your post also makes one think, that if a doctrine keeps getting restarted, and no one believes it, is it really Biblical? Or is it just another heresy in different forms? I have always thought dispensationalism was wrong, long before I heard teaching on it. It is just not in the Bible. What is in the Bible is salvation by faith.
half the 1600's guys were Puritans:rolleyes:
who went all Old Testamenty anyways.

as for the early early fathers - all they did was go..like...oh - major Bible characters? let's see....Adam...Noah...Moses....Elijah...Jesus

(?)
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#7
Saying dispensationalism has a long history because some in the past created very generalized categories for time periods in the Bible, would be like me saying baseball has been around forever because cavemen threw snowballs and hit things with clubs.

Dispensationalism has literally rewired what it means to be saved.
It's changed who and what the atonement applies to.
That's a far cry from some church fathers, puritans and others giving titles to certain time periods in scripture.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#8
The distinctives of dispensational theology does not include soteriology, there are dispensationalists that are monergists and synergists what defines dispensational theology are two...

1. The literal approach to Scripture...
which leads to
2. The distinct dealings of God with Israel and the Church.

Anything over and beyond those two points may or may not be embraced by a dispensationalist.
Case in point, John MacArthur...a Calvinist yet holding to points 1 and 2 above.
 
Nov 14, 2012
2,113
4
0
#9
Hello everyone, I just wanted to share this post with you all to show you that Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching was not a modern invention by Darby and Scofield. I realize that more and more people are coming out with this silly notion, idea, and claim that Dispensationalism was not taught before the time of John Nelson Darby. And because a lot of people don't do their own research and study into the matter, a lot of them end up believing the false claim that Dispensationalism wasn't around before the 1800s.

So the purpose of this post is to simply show you that Dispensational Bible Teaching was around long before the 1800s. In fact, your going to find that it was even around in the Second Century.

So to begin; here are some of the Dispensation Systems and layouts which were developed way before Darby was even born:


William Gouge who was born in 1575, developed the following the follwing 6 Dispensations Layout: Adam to Noah; Noah to Abraham; Abraham to David; David to the Captivity; the Captivity to the Birth of Christ; the Birth of Christ to the Great White Throne Judgment. Now what should be pointed out is that Gouge's system left out the Mosaic Covenant. And in regard to Gouge's layout, Dr. Peter Ruckman pointed out that his layout ended up "spiritualizing three-fourths of the Old Testament, teaching no restoration of Israel, and no Millennial Reign."
(Ruckman, How To Teach Dispensational Truth, Pg.6)


Another Dispensational System and layout that was given before John Nelson Darby's time was that of Pierre Poiret (1646-1719). And Poiret gave a Premillennial System. He gave the following Dispensational System by describing the following: "The Oeconomy of the Creation; the Oeconomy of Sin; the Oeconomy of the Restoration; the Oeconomy of the Incarnation; the Oeconomy of the Cooperation of Man with the Operation of God, and the Oeconomy of Universal Providence. And Poiret's seventh Dispensation was a physical, literal, one thousand year reign of Jesus Christ (according to Arnold Ehlert; in his work, A Bibliographic History of Dispensationalism [ Grand Rapids: Baker book House, 1965], p. 35).

So to sum up Poiret's Dispensational System, he had Seven Dispensations in Six volumes.


Isaac Watts (1674-1748) also discerned that there were Divisions and Dispensations in the Holy Bible, and this was his Dispensational Set up: "The Dispensation of Innocency; The Dispensation of the Covenant of Grace; The Noahical Dispensation; The Abrahamical Dispensation, The Mosaical Dispensation, and the Christian Dispensation. Now what should be obvious to point out though, Mr. Watts did miss the Davidic Covenant. Plus, he also missed the Pre-tribulation Rapture, the Tribulation (Time of Jacob's Trouble), the Restoration of Israel, and the Millennium.


And here are some more Dispensational Systems which have been developed and worked out long before John Nelson Darby's time (1800 - 1882).


John Taylor of Norwich (1694-1751), John Flechiere (1729-1785), John Priestley (1733-1804), David Bogue ( 1750-1825), Adam Clarke (1762-1832), George Faber (1773-1843), and David Russell (1779-1848).


And all these Dispensatuional Systems were worked out before John Darby, C.I. Scofied (1843-1921), and Clarence Larkin (1850-1924).


So contrary to the popular misteaching that Dispensational Bible study and Teaching was somehow first developed by Darby, the quite opposite is the truth. And the simple truth of the matter is that Dispensational Bible Study has been around for a very long time. And while Darby, Scofield, and Larkin all did a great work in the study of Dispensational Bible Study; and while they with their books and other works have surely contributed greatly to this unique and Biblical system and method of Bible Study, these three men were by no means the first to discover different ages and dispensations in God's holy word.


According to Crutchfield, Justin Martyr (AD 100-165), believed in four phases of human history in God's program.


First phase was from Adam to Abraham
Second Phase was from Abraham to Moses
The Third was from Moses to Christ
And the Fourth was from Christ to the Eternal State (Eternity).


Alongside Justin Martyr was Irenaeus (AD120-202), and his Dispensational Theme went like this:


1. From the Creation to the Flood.
2. From the Flood to the Law.
3. From the Law to the Gospel.
4. From the Gospel to the Eternal State.


So Irenaeus's Dispensational layout was quite similar to Justin Martyr's in that both of their Dispensational layouts had four ages or dispensations to them.


Furthermore, Irenaeus taught that there were four zones of the world and of mankind. He saw a connection between the four zones, the faces of the four living creatures, the four gospels, and the four dispensations.


And to conclude, I will include here a quote by Crutchfield in a study he did in regard to the very early Dispensational Layouts of Martyr and Irenaeus in comparison to the modern Dispensational Systems:


"Some Fathers set forth only four such dispensations, others came very close to making nearly the same divisions modern dispensationalists do, Irenaeus, Victorinus of Petau, and Methodius' number of dispensations is artificially restricted to four ... the dispensations are most often spoken of the early fathers in terms of the prominent persons (Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, and Christ). Dispensational divisions were customarily made along the boundaries of these five men's lives and times." - Crutchfiled concludes in his own study on the history of Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching.


So again, don't believe the false statement that Dispensationalsm only recently came about by Darby and Larkin. This falsehood and lie is continually made by those who simply refuse to be dispensational and who refuse to obey the command given in 2 Timothy 2:15. Hence, false prophets like Steven Anderson who fails to rightly divide the word of truth, are constantly attacking the Biblical system of Dispensational Bible Study and Teaching.



And for those of you out there who are interested in taking a look into Dispensational Bible Teaching and Study, I recommend Larkin's book: Dispensational Truth, Dr. Doug Stauffer's One Book Rightly Divided, and also Dr. Peter Ruckman's book: How To Tach Dispensational Truth.

There is also a wealth of good sermons out there on Dispensational Truth that you can find simply by going onwww.Sermonaudio.com

Bryan Denlinger does a couple of sermons on this subject, as does Gregory A. Miller, Alan Cairns, and Elder Ronald Lawrence. I highly recommend all of them.

Well everyone, I hope this helped. And please prayerfully consider in studying this matter. It is so important for students of the Bible to learn how to rightly divide the word of truth. To learn how to discover the ages and different dispensations in the Holy Scriptures. The different Dispensations which God has clearly placed in His word. And to acknowledge that those divisions, ages, and dispensations are there.

i didn't see any scripture quoted whatsoever. This is a man made thing so.............
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#10
The purpose of the OP was not to prove dispensational teaching was biblical or not but that...

''So the purpose of this post is to simply show you that Dispensational Bible Teaching was around long before the 1800s. In fact, your going to find that it was even around in the Second Century.''

So please don't tempt us to turn on the RCC and show unbiblical much of what it holds is also man made.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#11
The distinctives of dispensational theology does not include soteriology, there are dispensationalists that are monergists and synergists what defines dispensational theology are two...

1. The literal approach to Scripture...
which leads to
2. The distinct dealings of God with Israel and the Church.

Anything over and beyond those two points may or may not be embraced by a dispensationalist.
Case in point, John MacArthur...a Calvinist yet holding to points 1 and 2 above.
Yes it does

Ruckman teaches that works helps one get saved in some dispensations.
 
Nov 14, 2012
2,113
4
0
#12
The purpose of the OP was not to prove dispensational teaching was biblical or not but that...

''So the purpose of this post is to simply show you that Dispensational Bible Teaching was around long before the 1800s. In fact, your going to find that it was even around in the Second Century.''

So please don't tempt us to turn on the RCC and show unbiblical much of what it holds is also man made.


You really don't like me. Am I not allowed to post?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#13
You really don't like me. Am I not allowed to post?
Thank God I'm not an OP :) I'm just saying by your attacks on protestants, when they come from left field, are inviting a counter against the RCC. And then what happens? You cry foul and say 'why are you guys always attacking Rome'?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
113
#14
Yes it does

Ruckman teaches that works helps one get saved in some dispensations.
Ruckman is one man. I am saying amongst dispensationalists you have varying views on the relationship of faith/works/law/grace. It is not a distinctive of dispensation theology.Actually the earlier dispensationslists were much closer to Calvin, the more recent ones Arminius and if that is what Ruckman teaches it looks close to semi-Pelagian.
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
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#15
UMM Quick question for you Chosen,

Doesn't dispensation fly in the face of Hebrews 11? Doesn't Hebrews 11 point to the fact that all the men and women of faith were declared righteous by FAITH? Wasn't Abraham declared righteous by FAITH? Every single one BELIEVED and obeyed God. Isn't the time when Abraham went to sacrifice Issac a shadow of what was to come? So how do these things work within dispensation? If all were declared righteous by faith then how is that so much DIFFERENT then Christians being declared righteous by faith in Christ? Remember the Old Testament points forward to Christ,the New Testament points back to what He has already done. So how is it different in that both Old and New Testament believers were declared righteous by FAITH?

Hello there Sarah, that is a good question. A very good question. Also I want to thank you for taking time to read my post and respond. Now in regard to your question Sarah, actually no it does not. Because here is what needs to be considered Sarah. No person from Genesis 3 to Genesis 22 is placed "in Christ" at the time of their conversion. Not one of them at the time of their conversion is placed in the "Body of Christ." Plus, no person is "adopted" as a "Son of God" (Eph. 1:5), nor are they spiritually circumcised. Furthermore, not a single man or woman from Genesis 3 to Genesis 22 is permanently redeemed (Hen 9:12, 15), none of them are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13 & 4:30). And every single one of them is counting on the blood of animals for salvation ( See Genesis 4:4, 8:20, & 22:13). So none of them have their sins taken away ( See Heb. 10:4). They were forgiven (See Exodus 34), but their sins had not yet been taken away since the blood of Jesus Christ had not yet been shed.

Now was Faith involved in Noah and Abraham's salvation. ABSOLUTELY. But they were not saved like we are now in the New Testament. No man or woman in the Old Testament, before the Law, or during the Law, was saved the way the Apostle Paul was saved. And not one of them became born again at their conversion. The New Birth came into place only after the death of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Abraham and Noah were not told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor were they told to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" (See Acts 2:38). Noah was saved by building the ark, and entering into it, just as God commanded him.

So Dispensational Bible Study helps us to see how God dealt with mankind in different ages, administrations, and dispensations. And like I said before God dispenses salvation differently in each dispensation.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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#16
Hello there Sarah, that is a good question. A very good question. Also I want to thank you for taking time to read my post and respond. Now in regard to your question Sarah, actually no it does not. Because here is what needs to be considered Sarah. No person from Genesis 3 to Genesis 22 is placed "in Christ" at the time of their conversion. Not one of them at the time of their conversion is placed in the "Body of Christ." Plus, no person is "adopted" as a "Son of God" (Eph. 1:5), nor are they spiritually circumcised. Furthermore, not a single man or woman from Genesis 3 to Genesis 22 is permanently redeemed (Hen 9:12, 15), none of them are sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13 & 4:30). And every single one of them is counting on the blood of animals for salvation ( See Genesis 4:4, 8:20, & 22:13). So none of them have their sins taken away ( See Heb. 10:4). They were forgiven (See Exodus 34), but their sins had not yet been taken away since the blood of Jesus Christ had not yet been shed.

Now was Faith involved in Noah and Abraham's salvation. ABSOLUTELY. But they were not saved like we are now in the New Testament. No man or woman in the Old Testament, before the Law, or during the Law, was saved the way the Apostle Paul was saved. And not one of them became born again at their conversion. The New Birth came into place only after the death of Jesus Christ on the cross.

Abraham and Noah were not told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Nor were they told to "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" (See Acts 2:38). Noah was saved by building the ark, and entering into it, just as God commanded him.

So Dispensational Bible Study helps us to see how God dealt with mankind in different ages, administrations, and dispensations. And like I said before God dispenses salvation differently in each dispensation.
I am sorry Chosen I must disagree with certain things,I do agree they did not receive the Holy Spirit the way we do. But one can not leave out what Jesus said,

John 8


[SUP]52 [/SUP]At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. [SUP]53 [/SUP]Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. [SUP]55 [/SUP]Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. [SUP]56 [/SUP]Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
[SUP]57 [/SUP]“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
[SUP]58 [/SUP]“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” [SUP]59 [/SUP]At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

John 5

[SUP]45 [/SUP]“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. [SUP]46 [/SUP]If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. [SUP]47 [/SUP]But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

See the thing is Jesus is very clear that the Old Testament believers are looking forward to the day He would come,they knew Messiah WAS coming,and they wrote about it and were forward to that day. See the implication is they knew God's promise that He would send the Messiah,who would do what? Save His people from their sin. The biggest difference between us and them is they were on the side BEFORE Jesus came,and they knew God was sending a Messiah who would take away their sins. We need to remember that it was the Old Testament writers that told us about the over 350 prophecies about Jesus that came to pass.

Not one believer has ever been saved outside of believing God. That is the whole of Romans 4,Paul uses Abraham of the very example of being being justified by faith,not by works.

It's only one way that God saves and that is by faith.
 

ChosenbyHim

Senior Member
Sep 19, 2011
3,343
113
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#17
I am sorry Chosen I must disagree with certain things,I do agree they did not receive the Holy Spirit the way we do. But one can not leave out what Jesus said,

John 8


[SUP]52 [/SUP]At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. [SUP]53 [/SUP]Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
[SUP]54 [/SUP]Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. [SUP]55 [/SUP]Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. [SUP]56 [/SUP]Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
[SUP]57 [/SUP]“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
[SUP]58 [/SUP]“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” [SUP]59 [/SUP]At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

John 5

[SUP]45 [/SUP]“But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. [SUP]46 [/SUP]If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. [SUP]47 [/SUP]But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

See the thing is Jesus is very clear that the Old Testament believers are looking forward to the day He would come,they knew Messiah WAS coming,and they wrote about it and were forward to that day. See the implication is they knew God's promise that He would send the Messiah,who would do what? Save His people from their sin. The biggest difference between us and them is they were on the side BEFORE Jesus came,and they knew God was sending a Messiah who would take away their sins. We need to remember that it was the Old Testament writers that told us about the over 350 prophecies about Jesus that came to pass.

Not one believer has ever been saved outside of believing God. That is the whole of Romans 4,Paul uses Abraham of the very example of being being justified by faith,not by works.

It's only one way that God saves and that is by faith.


No need to apologize Sarah.

Well the Old Testament saints were indeed looking for the "seed of the woman" that would bruise the serpant's head.

But they were not looking foreward to the cross. And no, the Old Testament Saints were not saved like we are saved today. Again, was there an element of faith in their salvation? Yes there was. But to imply that there is only one way that God has saved man or to imply that Adam, Noah, and Abraham were saved back then the same way we are today is not Biblical. God deals differently with mankind in each administration and dispensation. Also, in the near future Sarah, in the time of Jacob's trouble also known as the Great Tribulation, for a man and woman to be saved, they will have to have the faith of Jesus AND keep the commandments of God ( See Revelation 12:17 & Revelation 14:12). Faith and Works.

And during the Millennial Kingdom, no one will be saved by faith. Salvation will be purely by works ( See Revelation 22:14). Just like it first was in the Edenic covenant.

The reason a man or woman won't need faith in the Millennial Kingdom is because Jesus Christ will be physically present in Jerusalem. They will be able to see Jesus Christ on the throne ruling and reigning.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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#18
No need to apologize Sarah.

Well the Old Testament saints were indeed looking for the "seed of the woman" that would bruise the serpant's head.

But they were not looking foreward to the cross. And no, the Old Testament Saints were not saved like we are saved today. Again, was there an element of faith in their salvation? Yes there was. But to imply that there is only one way that God has saved man or to imply that Adam, Noah, and Abraham were saved back then the same way we are today is not Biblical. God deals differently with mankind in each administration and dispensation. Also, in the near future Sarah, in the time of Jacob's trouble also known as the Great Tribulation, for a man and woman to be saved, they will have to have the faith of Jesus AND keep the commandments of God ( See Revelation 12:17 & Revelation 14:12). Faith and Works.

And during the Millennial Kingdom, no one will be saved by faith. Salvation will be purely by works ( See Revelation 22:14). Just like it first was in the Edenic covenant.

The reason a man or woman won't need faith in the Millennial Kingdom is because Jesus Christ will be physically present in Jerusalem. They will be able to see Jesus Christ on the throne ruling and reigning.
Chosen,

Whether one likes it or not faith always has the element of obeying God. James tells us faith without works is dead,Jesus tells us if we love Him we will keep and obey His commandments. See it goes into knowing Him,loving Him trusting Him and obeying Him,and it's in the obeying Him that works comes in. If one is not obeying Him how can one say they love Him? Works comes out of FAITH. Revelation 12,14 and 22 is no different then what Jesus already told us. And Jesus did tell us HOW to keep commandments and that is first to love the Lord your God with all your heart,mind,soul and strength and two to love our neighbor as our self. Remember they BELIEVED GOD and they obeyed. And it is still the same for us.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#19
And during the Millennial Kingdom, no one will be saved by faith. Salvation will be purely by works ( See Revelation 22:14).
Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Romans 3:20
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

Romans 3:21
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ephesians 2:9
not by works, so that no one can boast.

~

Galatians 1
No Other Gospel

6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

a man accursed, devoted to the direst woes (equivalent to ἐπικατάρατος): ἀνάθεμα ἔστω, Galatians 1:8; 1 Corinthians 16:22; ἀνάθεμα λέγειν τινα to execrate one, 1 Corinthians 12:3 (R G, but L T Tr WH have restored ἀνάθεμα Ἰησοῦς, namely, ἔστω); ἀνάθεμα εἶναι ἀπό τοῦ Χριστοῦ, Romans 9:3 (pregnantly equivalent to doomed and so separated from Christ).
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#20
Saying dispensationalism has a long history because some in the past created very generalized categories for time periods in the Bible, would be like me saying baseball has been around forever because cavemen threw snowballs and hit things with clubs.

Dispensationalism has literally rewired what it means to be saved.
It's changed who and what the atonement applies to.
That's a far cry from some church fathers, puritans and others giving titles to certain time periods in scripture.
why don't people believe this?

Galatians 1:9
As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God's curse!