Is baptism Essential for salvation?

livingepistle · May 20, 2013

I appreciate your candor. I attempted to arrange my responses in the same order of the sentences in your paragraph.

Acts 8:12-17

12] But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
13] Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done…
15] Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost 16] For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17] Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.

Please notice that they believed first…now consider the following:

Romans 10:14-15

King James Version (KJV)
14] How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15] And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

According to the Word, individuals cannot believe until they hear the Gospel. To hear the Gospel, you need a preacher; we are all (ministers for Christ) preachers.

The scriptures show that the requirements to become a believer is hear the Gospel and believe that what you hear is true. The proof that you believe is always followed by being baptized in the name of Jesus. "This is what the scriptures states, not me".

The commandment statement is with reference to Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord…

What the scriptures say that Water Baptism is:

Romans 6:1-4

1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2] Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3] Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4] Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
According to the definition of baptism given by the Word, it is and represents "death" with respect to the Lord's crucifixion.

I have not found any references to a sacrament being a typology of baptism. Perhaps you can direct me to the scriptures that support this analogy.

The condition of receiving the Holy Spirit is strictly concerning the faith to believe that it is available and that it is a gift come from God only. Someone can believe, get baptized in the name of Jesus and still not meet the proper condition of receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit; see Acts the 8th chapter concerning the sorcerer Simon. He did not meet the condition of faith and Peter exposed his true intent--Simon's heart was not right toward God; thereby, the gift was not offered.

Moreover, it is important to notice when studying the "Born Again" subject, baptism by water and receiving the Holy Spirit happens in succession of one or the other. Case point, Cornelius the Centurion, he and all his house received the Holy Ghost prior to being baptized. After receiving, Peter commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

The Blood of Jesus

Twenty Things the Blood of Jesus Does

1. It remits sins (Matt. 26:28). 2.It gives life to those who consume it (John 6:53). 3. It causes us to dwell in Christ and He in us (John 6:56). 4. It is the means by which Jesus purchased the church (Acts 20:28). 5. It is the means by which Jesus becomes our atonement through faith (Rom. 3:25). 6. It justifies us and saves us from wrath (Rom. 5:9). 7. It redeems us (Eph. 1:7; 1 Pet. 1:18-19; Rev. 5:9). 8. It brings those who were far away from God near to Him (Eph. 2:13). 9.It grants us the forgiveness of sins (Col. 1:14). 10.It brings peace and reconciliation to God (Col. 1:20).

11. It has obtained eternal redemption for us (Heb. 9:12). 12. It cleanses our conscience from dead works to serve the living God (Heb. 9:14). 13. It is the means by which we enter the most holy place with boldness (Heb. 10:19). 14. It speaks a better word than the blood of Abel (Heb. 12:24, NIV). 15. It sanctifies us (Heb. 13:12) 16. It makes us complete for every good work (Heb. 13:20-21, NKJV). 17. It cleanses us from all sin (1 John 1:7). 18. It bears witness in the earth along with the Spirit and the water (1 John 5:8, KJV). 19. It is the means by which Jesus washes us (Rev. 1:5; 7:14). 20. It is the means by which we overcome the accuser of the brethren (Rev. 12:11).

Covenant: 1 Pet. 1:19; Heb. 12:24; Luke 22:20; Heb. 13:20.

Salvation is Jesus. He is the gift to all humanity. That is why the thief on the cross went to paradise, Salvation was hanging there with him, he called upon the Lord to save him, repented, and Jesus did His sovereign thing. Some take this event an attempt to apply it across the spectrum of the entire Bible but that is incorrect. This was a special event haven happened. No where in the Bible can you find such an event ever again occurring.

The only other event is the woman at the well. It was not meant for Gentiles to receive salvation first, it was for the Jews first then the Gentiles, pay close attention to what happened, Salvation was with her, and another command decision was made by the Master and he granted her access because of her faith and persistence. Jesus said yes.

Jesus is salvation and Master of my soul.

SarahM777 · May 20, 2013

zone said:

my congregation is to almost all others (in their own words) - cold; dead; formalist; legalist; pharisaical..blah blah.

nothing is farther from the truth.

the first century shepherds guarded the flocks from wolves and false doctrine - as well as feeding them good food.

people are free to hold to any doctrine they want, and assemble or not assemble.
teach two baptisms if they wish; teach christ isnt king now; jews saved by merciful blinding...tongues is babbling.
you name it.

my congregation says no to all that. no.
doesnt mean we dont love people...and that mantra is plum wore out.
okay

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to zone again.

I couldn't have said it any better.

starfield · May 20, 2013

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Notice that it didn't say "...he that believeth not and is not baptised shall be damned". According to this verse unbelief, not baptism, results in eternal damnation therefore salvation is strictly by faith in Jesus.

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Born of water - Was Jesus really telling Nicodemus he had to be water baptised in order to enter the kingdom of God? No. So what does it mean to be born of water? Scripture interprets scripture so consider Eph 5:26 and Titus 3:5 to determine what born of water means. Eph 5:26 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word." Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost". Water is symbolic for spiritual cleansing of the heart by the word of God which brings a new spiritual life.

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Peter wasn't saying that one should be baptised in order to obtain remission of sins rather he was saying that one should be baptised because their sins have been remitted already. "For" can be a preposition like "because of", so we get baptised because of the remission of sins, in essence we obey God and get baptised because our sins have been forgiven. Acts 2:41 - Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. It wasn’t the act of baptism that saved them. They received the word of God first, repented, and were saved then were baptised straightaway.

Finally, if baptism is essential to salvation, how were Abraham, Noah, David, Daniel, all the Old Testament saints saved since baptism hadn't yet been instituted? Were they not saved as they weren't baptised?
Rom 4:3 - For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Abraham's righteousness was obtained by faith.
Gen 6:8 - But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Heb 11:7 - By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. Noah was justified by faith - when he was warned of the things to come he believed that God's word was true and subsequently built the ark.The OT folks were saved by grace through faith and were trusting in the promised Messiah. The OT mode of salvation is the same as the New Testament which is what Apostle Paul was always telling the Gentiles, it is by God's grace alone through faith in the sacrifice of the Son, therefore baptism isn't essential for salvation. There is no verse in the bible that says one who doesn’t get baptised is damned. None at all.

Salvation is the gift of God appropriated on the penitent sinner by faith, not water baptism. Rom 3:24-25 - Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God.

Baptismal regeneration is another gospel.

livingepistle · May 20, 2013

starfield said:

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Notice that it didn't say "...he that believeth not and is not baptised shall be damned". According to this verse unbelief, not baptism, results in eternal damnation therefore salvation is strictly by faith in Jesus.

John 3:5 - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Born of water - Was Jesus really telling Nicodemus he had to be water baptised in order to enter the kingdom of God? No. So what does it mean to be born of water? Scripture interprets scripture so consider Eph 5:26 and Titus 3:5 to determine what born of water means. Eph 5:26 "That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word." Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost". Water is symbolic for spiritual cleansing of the heart by the word of God which brings a new spiritual life.

I have one question for you concerning this post and depending on the answer I will have followup questions.

What is your understanding of "salvation" ?

kardiaoangelous · May 20, 2013

livingepistle said:

After Mark 16:8 it is found in various manuscripts to have either a short conclusion or a long conclusion, neither of which are regarded as authentic. Both the long and the short conclusions are missing in most ancient manuscripts, such as the Sinaitic and the Vatican No. 1209.

The fourth-century scholars Eusebius and Jerome agree that the authentic record of Mark closes with the words “for they were afraid.” The other conclusions were likely added by some who felt that was too abrupt an ending. But the fact is that abruptness is typical of Mark.

And you know how hard-headed people are once they latch onto anything. Especially if they have used part of it to shape their doctrines.

Cobus · May 21, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Very TRUE SarahM, but what is the use I CLAIM to be Christian, and God's Spirit does NOT CONFESS WITH me? I know plenty people right here on CC that "confess" that they are Christian, but God's Spirit DOES NOT CONFESS with their spirit that they are. So just "caliming" to be Christian does not make you one...

I will not EVER say I am a Child of God, Or Born of God, I think the Spirit of God will do that part. I need not CLAIM to be Christian to be right, I only have to show in Scripture that GOD IS RIGHT...

JC I will always share with you, and here is a small witness, make of ot what you wish but here goes...
I healed people by praying for them. It did not work every time, but some amazing healings took place. I qouted scripture that I never read before in my life. When I did youth ministery for the first time in my life, I knew NOT A SINGLE VERSE IN THE BIBLE. Oh except for maybe the Lord's Prayer, but not competely or in the right order... I sort of know some of it... You see I DID NOT GRROW up in a church... But at the age of 38, I found myself VERY INTERESTED IN THIS JESUS FELLA...

And not even two months after my first day in church, I was a deacon in that church, and I was asked to attend a final year catcasant weekend in the Drakenberg mountains... That weekend was VERY special, BUT!!!! Just look at all the mistakes in IGNORANCE, and LACK OF KNOWLEDGE we made....First... God says that they must not appoint NEW or YOUNG converts to posts, for they shall fall in the trap of SATAN... Also God says.... A Deacon, should be found BLAMELESS if inverstigated... I was not... and that he should be a man that house the mystery of faith n a clean conscience... I did not even know what the mystery of faith is, and I certainly did not have a clean conscience...

God also says that if the teaching part comes this man should be APT TO TEACH.... WOW! This is UGE! I wonder if God would have to com to CC and show who here ARE APT TO TEACH, how many people do you thing will be shown out? I doubt if there is ONE, including myself.

Who can teach this verse, and not be a HYPOCRATE? Be perfect.... MAt 5:48.
Yet SEEKINGJC, that weekend was pretty special, an maybe God only gave flashes of what may happen, or He was not even involved AT ALL. But I qouted Scripture that I NEVER read before, and as a "bonus" I would go to that scripture and read it to the boys. How I knew where it was found, I CANNOT explain. And no matter what was done in that following two years, with various "miricles" and they were unexplainable works and wonders.... I was tested by God's Truth, The WORD THAT FLOWS LIKE RIVERS... and my HOUSE (DOCTRINE) was washed AWAY!

Two verses shook my WORLD, and it was found FALSE.... This is a very short version of CALLING of God. I came back from a Jesus-Film showing with Campus Cruisade. I prayed for a two yearold boy that had a misformed hip, and NOTHING happened. So I went home and around midnight sat at the table where I do Bible study, and said.... "Lord, what is this game You play? Why did You not heal the boy tonight? We could have saved MANY SOULS tonight. I am fed-up with these games, this is your last chance with Cobus Myburgh. You better show me if you are real or not! I opened my Bible and read... Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

I was shocked and I said out loud.... Lord this is NOT TRUE, we will always be sinners... SEE that two years in church at least taught me ONE THING... WE WILL ALWAYS BE SINNERS, EVEN THOUGH GOD IS OUR FATHER... Well that soon would VANISH as the CHAFF that will burn in the FIRE.... MY CHAFF I ACCEPTED AS TRUTH!!! So now that I told God that His Word is a lying scoundral, I said.... God and what about all the people I healed in your NAME? Come on, YOU HEALED them when I asked, that is what I complain about tonight.... WHY so on and off!!!! Again I opened my Bible, and this is what I read...Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Sarahm, Zonie, SeekingJC... imagine the shock I had... I thought GOD was healing the people, but HE DID NOT EVEN KNOW ME..... Why? I WORKED THE INIQUITY.... I was a sinner! Still am! Wonder if I am elected, HOPE SO! Anyway, I was so shocked and I knew there HAS to be something I can DO to KNOW THE TRUTH or to GET GOD TO KNOW ME...

So I asked.... LORD what should I do? And He said.... IN A VERY CLEAR VOICE.... GENESIS 1:1 START!

So I started. And my friend, I LOVED WHAT I READ... It ALL fitted so well in with BE PERFECT.... The Whole Bible is FULL of that advice. And also full of the ADVICE... GO AWAY from me, Ye that work the iniquity... So here I am, a repenting sinner, and God and I might be acquintances now? Who knows but the man in WHOM THAT SPIRIT DWELLS?

SarahM777 · May 21, 2013

Cobus said:

You're right there are many who claim to be Christian but they are not. Jesus is so crystal clear that narrow is the door and few that will find it. Add to that Paul also is very clear,add to that God was very clear that only eight entered the ark,four left Sodom and Gommorah,add to that only two men entered the promised land. God is crystal clear not many will enter.

Cobus,I do understand some of what you are saying about not seeing the reality in many believers lives. Been there myself,God had to show to quit looking at people and look to Jesus. If the US is as Christian as we say we are why do things at times seem to be worse then in some unbelieving countries? It's because it's not there,never was. Too often you see the cheap easy shallow stuff that in the long run isn't worth a thing.

Cobus · May 21, 2013

SarahM you know I love you, and my problem is this.... My wife, who is propably the only holy person I know, said to me so many times.... If you can love and treat us as you do other people, you will be the perfect husband and father. So in her eyes I treat you with more patience, and love as I treat my own VERY GOOD FAMILY.

I should get some friend or aquintance to report what type of family we make out... but I will say it, and who knows maybe God will show you or give you a revelation about the state of my family.... Let me just say this... I have peace about my family, that I cannot share. There are no words to describe the ONENESS in this family. I am by FAR the worst person in that family, the other's ARE n my eyes GODLY PEOPLE. So if I do want to meet people in the likeness of JESUS, I can only look at my family, ME EXCLUDED.... And If you think I have a proud spirit now, think it, I am so grateful for every one of them. God said that the believing wife would sanctify the husband, well the kids are HOLY! I know this because they are 100% in God's Word...

I am the priest of the house, and I should be the one that is an example of holiness... I should be the one God and Jesus is the head of, but I am not! Not that I do not want to be, but between me and God there is something I cannot share. If I do, I might get real STICK from people. But this is something to remember... And if God shows you, then you will also understand why I WHIP YOUR BEHINDS TO GET TO PERFECTION..... Here is the verse that will explain something about what God showed me... Matthew 20:16.... So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

I URGE you people to stop sinning and go to God, hurry after Jesus, and LET HIM LEAD YOU OUT OF ALL SIN! Get to God and let Him give you the NEW HEART.... Please, PLEASE stop fighting the TRUTH... GOD PERFECTS EVERY CHILD OF HIS, BEFORE HE ADDS HIM TO HIS KINGDOM....

Many who believe this might even be BAPTIZED this same day with God's heart, and Spirit.... PLEASE BELIEVE GOD! He does save PERFECTLY. Amen!

SarahM777 · May 21, 2013

Cobus said:

Umm Cobus Are you aware Paul said this about himself. (This is AFTER he became a Christian)

1 Timothy 1

[SUP]12 [/SUP]And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all long suffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

So why does say this after becoming a Christian? Why does call himself of all sinners he is "chief"?

zone · May 21, 2013

Cobus said:

that's called DOUBT cobus.
lack of assurance comes from a very poor understanding of Who God is, what He said, why Jesus came, and what scripture says.

Ephesians 2
By Grace Through Faith
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the bodya and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4Butb God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

One in Christ
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,c but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God byd the Spirit.

if your faith is in YOU, forget it.
our faith has an OBJECT....we have faith IN something or someone.
who is it? us?

no.....a PERSON who is not us.

His Name is Wonderful.

stop focusing on self so much.
look to Christ.
give Him the Glory.

loveme1 · May 21, 2013

SarahM777, do you believe verse 1 Timothy 1 verse 15 means Paul is announcing he is a sinner in present tense?

i take this to mean he was guilty of many, many past sins and now he has obtained mercy.

SarahM777 · May 21, 2013

loveme1 said:

Paul uses both tenses in that passage,past tense in what he was,present tense in that he is the chief of sinners saved by grace,through Jesus Christ.

zone · May 21, 2013

Cobus said:

Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

teleioó: to bring to an end, to complete, perfect
Original Word: τελειόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: teleioó
Phonetic Spelling: (tel-i-o'-o)
Short Definition: I complete, accomplish, make perfect
Definition: (a) as a course, a race, or the like: I complete, finish (b) as of time or prediction: I accomplish, (c) I make perfect; pass: I am perfected.

Cognate: 5048 teleióō – to consummate, reaching the end-stage, i.e. working through the entire process (stages) to reach the final phase (conclusion). See 5056 (telos).

[This root (tel-) means "reaching the end (aim)." It is well-illustrated with the old pirate's telescope, unfolding (extending out) one stage at a time to function at full-strength (capacity effectiveness).]

...

3. to purify (ἀπό τῶν ἀκαθαρσιῶν is added in Leviticus 16:19; 2 Samuel 11:4); and

a. to cleanse externally (πρός τήν τῆς σαρκός καθαρότητα), to purify levitically: Hebrews 9:13; 1 Timothy 4:5.

b. to purify by expiation, free from the guilt of sin: 1 Corinthians 6:11; Ephesians 5:26; Hebrews 10:10, 14, 29; Hebrews 13:12; Hebrews 2:11 (equivalent to כִּפֶר, Exodus 29:33, 36); cf. Pfleiderer, Paulinismus, p. 340ff (English translation 2:68f).

c. to purify internally by reformation of soul: John 17:17, 19 (through knowledge of the truth, cf. John 8:32); 1 Thessalonians 5:23; 1 Corinthians 1:2 (ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ in the fellowship of Christ, the Holy One); Romans 15:16 (ἐν πνεύματι ἁγίῳ imbued with the Holy Spirit, the divine source of holiness); Jude 1:1 (L T Tr WH ἠγαπημένοις (which see)); Revelation 22:11. In general, Christians are called ἡγιασμένοι (cf. Deuteronomy 33:3), as those who, freed from the impurity of wickedness, have been brought near to God by their faith and sanctity, Acts 20:32; Acts 26:18. In 1 Corinthians 7:14 ἁγιάζεσθαι is used in a peculiar sense of those who, although not Christians themselves, are yet, by marriage with a Christian, withdrawn from the contamination of heathen impiety and brought under the saving influence of the Holy Spirit displaying itself among Christians; cf. Neander at the passage.

loveme1 · May 21, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Thank you, for responding i wanted to understand what you were proposing with that verse.

SarahM777 · May 21, 2013

loveme1 said:

No problem,sometimes we do need clarification, (It helps takeaway some of the misunderstandings)

notuptome · May 21, 2013

livingepistle said:

No argument from me.

I do not agree that Peter by commanding these to be baptized intended for baptism to be a command in the twentieth century usage of the word command. If we look at the context and the greek it can be said that he bid them to be baptized meaning he was asking them to come and receive water baptism.

Sacrament is a religious term and in the tenets of most modern churches baptism is considered a sacrament like communion of the Lords supper and in some churches foot washing. I use the term only because I believe that defining water baptism as a command and therefore essential to salvation is a doctrinal error. The word trinity is not in the scriptures either yet it is a doctrinal truth accepted by most of the church.

Here you go slightly astray. Simon was not saved and did not seek forgiveness of his sins but power to work miracles for profit. I'll not draw any direct parallels to some churches today.

So how do you explain Jesus breathing the Holy Spirit upon the apostles and others prior to Pentecost? No mention of water baptism. John 20:22 I do not think it wise to construct a cause and effect relationship between receiving the Holy Spirit and water baptism.

I appreciate your contribution and there certainly are some interesting statements in your post. I have never said that a person should not be water baptized. I will continue to state clearly that water baptism is not essential to salvation. Salvation is not a process but a monumental miracle event. The moment we believe and receive Christ we are saved and baptized by Gods Holy Spirit baptism which cannot be administered by man.
The woman at the well has little to contribute to the discussion of water baptism. The thief on the is a counterpoint to those who say we must be water baptized to be saved. He does lend considerable support to death bed conversions.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Cobus · May 21, 2013

We are hijackers here. I will start a thread... Grace through faith... Let us try to come to ONE belief there.
Sorry OP.

zone · May 21, 2013

Matthew 28
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.

alternative #1

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

alternative #2

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, I will baptize them with the Holy Spirit, 20 and you teach them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

alternative #3

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, lay hands on them and baptize them with the Holy Spirit, 20 and teach them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

any other alternatives?

notuptome · May 21, 2013

zone said:

The construction in the original language does not indicate that this is referring to water baptism but Holy Spirit baptism. So We go proclaim Christ according to what is written in Gods word. Souls will be saved by baptism in the Holy Spirit and added to the kingdom of God until Christ returns.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

homwardbound · May 21, 2013

kardiaoangelous said:

yes a branch by itself withers and dies
[h=3]John 15:1-8[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]The True Vine[/h]15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. [SUP]2 [/SUP]Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. [SUP]6 [/SUP]If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. [SUP]7 [/SUP]If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. [SUP]8 [/SUP]By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
It is all by belief and continued belief and willingness to see. I once was a seeing man that was blind, and then I became a blind man that now sees, the differance between the flesh and the Spirit of God, and I ride the fence as most do from time to time just learning to quit riding the fence and stay in the Spirit where there is no Law against this

Is baptism Essential for salvation?

livingepistle

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

livingepistle

Guest

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member