Is baptism Essential for salvation?

[1still_waters]

I need no chance but the spirit on the word upon which i feed. It is that spirit which fills me.

I am sorry that you don't see but then that is as it will be for some.

It is there spoken for you if you should at anytime soften your heart and allow yourself to begin to understand spiritual things.

And that is because God loves you and so do I.

Be in peace if you are satisfied.

It is there spoken for you if you should at anytime soften your heart and allow yourself to begin to understand spiritual things.

So if someone doesn't agree with your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:21 then they don't understand spiritual things?

I see that trump card laid down quite often.

It's not a matter of an unsoftened heart or failure to understand spiritual things.
It's just that I see the immediate context.
I see the words water and baptism, and assume it means water and baptism.
Your approach seems to take a text about baptism and turns it into anything but baptism.

Trust me dude, I'm rackin my brain reading your interpretation over quite a lot, and it's not even within the realm of being plausible to me ...yet.

 

[jody50]

The same Paul that wrote the Ephesians were the same man that said.... I WAS NOT SENT TO BAPTIZE... WOW! Paul did not preach a water baptism. And Paul did not baptize any people with water save... Look what Paul says, and then you dicide what he was sent to preach and do....

1 Cor 1:17 and 18....
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

The Bible teaches that if a corn does not fall to the ground AND DIE, it cannot bear fruit again! If we do not DIE ON A CROSS, we cannot bear God's fruit. That DEATH IS Dieing off the old man, and the NEW LIFE is the INDWELLING SPIRIT OF GOD.

God will put HIS HOLY SPIRIT (SEED) in people HE SAVES untill HE IS DONE, on that day HIS SON RETURNS.

John the baptist said it best.... I baptize with water, but He shall baptize you with Holy Ghost, and with fire...

Please Lord me too, baptize me too, Amen!

As we have said before, context is everything. In I Corinthians Paul is condemning those who have divided after men, Apollos, Cephas, etc. Paul said he is glad that he only baptized some of them lest they start trying to follow him and not Christ. Verse 17, Paul uses a "not" / "but" contrast. He is saying the main thing is preaching the gospel not the one who baptizes you. The emphasis is upon the preaching but note that all these Corinthians were baptized. Paul was baptized by Annanias. Paul Teaches that baptism puts us into Christ. Gal.3:26-27. Paul baptized those who were baptized only in John's baptism in Acts 19. He baptized them and then laid hands on them and they received gifts of the Holy Spirit. They were not baptized in the Holy Spirit or they would not have needed the laying on of his hands to impart the gifts of the Spirit. Also Acts 8:26-40, Philip preached unto the Eunuch Jesus and they Eunuch said, "see here is water what doth hinder me to be baptized?" That necessarily infers that when Philip preached the Gospel he preached baptism in water. The Eunuch did not rejoice until after his baptism. So your first statement concerning Paul and baptism is not born out in scripture.

 

[jinx]

So if someone doesn't agree with your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:21 then they don't understand spiritual things?

I see that trump card laid down quite often.

He used that trump card on me

 

[kardiaoangelous]

But you are confusing that at 1 Peter 3:21 to be water baptism when it is not. That idea does not match the parallel with Noah's Ark and that flood.

Please listen as I explain how that parallel works:

Noah and seven others were transported in the Ark as risen above by water of a world which was perishing.

Parallel: Isaiah 57:20 "But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt."

Jesus arranged things to demonstrate how by faith in him we can rise to walk safely on the surface of even turbulent water, again to those who have spiritual discernment a picture of rising above this perishing world to safety through faith in Christ:

Matthew 14:22 "And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship, and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes away.
23 And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.
25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.
26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.
27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.
28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.
29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

Jesus' body compares to that Ark Noah built. When we become a part of the body of Christ (his church) it is as being inside that Ark that Noah built being carried over the top of the turbulent waters of wicked mankind. And we can only enter Christ's body (his true church) through an active faith which fears not to step out and walk as does Christ, even as Jesus used Peter there at Matthew 14 to demonstrate, making it no surprise why peter would be the one to write as he did at 1 Peter 3:21.

I will stop there for a time so you can ponder that tid-bit.

For those who wish to see the fuller picture, I will continue.

The natural question would be, 'How can that be so that we rise above the waters of wickedness in the Ark of our salvation?' You should rightly wonder, "Is it not the pure water of Christ that we rise to walk on and that holds us afloat with Christ in his body?'

Both of those questions are necessary to ask. And the answer is, 32 "And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

And when that wind ceased the waters became calm for those with Christ. That calm water represents the pure water of God's word which carries abundant authority and power in Christ and which he shares to his body.

David, speaking prophetically of Jesus shows us that it was Jesus himself that taught us this picture. Not that Jesus had sin but that he took our sins to him. Compare:

Isaiah 57:20 "But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt."

Psalms 69:1 "Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul.
2 I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me.
3 I am weary of my crying: my throat is dried: mine eyes fail while I wait for my God.
4 They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away.
5 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.
6 Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord GOD of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel."

I will speak more after you have time to ponder this.

 

[jinx]

It's getting deep in here. Put your boot on kids.

 

[1still_waters]

For those who wish to see the fuller picture, I will continue.

The natural question would be, 'How can that be so that we rise above the waters of wickedness in the Ark of our salvation?' You should rightly wonder, "Is it not the pure water of Christ that we rise to walk on and that holds us afloat with Christ in his body?'

Both of those questions are necessary to ask. And the answer is, 32 "And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.
33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

And when that wind ceased the waters became calm for those with Christ. That calm water represents the pure water of God's word which carries abundant authority and power in Christ and which he shares to his body.

David, speaking prophetically of Jesus shows us that it was Jesus himself that taught us this picture. Compare:

Isaiah 57:20 "But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt."

Psalms 69:1 "Save me, O God; for the waters are come in unto my soul.
2 I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me.
3 I am weary of my crying: my throat is dried: mine eyes fail while I wait for my God.
4 They that hate me without a cause are more than the hairs of mine head: they that would destroy me, being mine enemies wrongfully, are mighty: then I restored that which I took not away.
5 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.
6 Let not them that wait on thee, O Lord GOD of hosts, be ashamed for my sake: let not those that seek thee be confounded for my sake, O God of Israel."

I will speak more after you have time to ponder this.

You are correct on the spiritual truth you state, but 1 Peter 3 21 is not about this truth.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

It's getting deep in here. Put your boot on kids.

And such they said to Jesus. He spoke beyond what their minds could grasp, they having no spiritual understanding.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

You are correct on the spiritual truth you state, but 1 Peter 3 21 is not about this truth.

OK, then show how the pieces fit the way you see it?

If you cannot fit all of the pieces then are you being humble by continuing to insist on the way you see it?

Here is your chance. Please proceed.

And note the correction I added that you did not catch. "David, speaking prophetically of Jesus shows us that it was Jesus himself that taught us this picture. Not that Jesus had sin but that he took our sins to him."

 

[1still_waters]

And such they said to Jesus. He spoke beyond what their minds could grasp, they having no spiritual understanding.

What an effective card to play.

If folks disagree with you then they're like those numb numbs who couldn't comprehend all the spiritual stuff Jesus said.

That puts us in the place of the spiritually dense, and you on the same teaching level as Jesus.

 

[1still_waters]

OK, then show how the pieces fit the way you see it?

If you cannot fit all of the pieces then are you being humble by continuing to insist on the way you see it?

Here is your chance. Please proceed.

And note the correction I added that you did not catch. "David, speaking prophetically of Jesus shows us that it was Jesus himself that taught us this picture. Not that Jesus had sin but that he took our sins to him."

it says water
it says baptism.

its pretty straight forward

 

[Christabel]

So if someone doesn't agree with your interpretation of 1 Peter 3:21 then they don't understand spiritual things?

I see that trump card laid down quite often.

It's not a matter of an unsoftened heart or failure to understand spiritual things.
It's just that I see the immediate context.
I see the words water and baptism, and assume it means water and baptism.
Your approach seems to take a text about baptism and turns it into anything but baptism.

Trust me dude, I'm rackin my brain reading your interpretation over quite a lot, and it's not even within the realm of being plausible to me ...yet.

If I use a spray bottle on my face, will that count? Cause hey! I've got to argue this thing to death, though I've no idea why, unless I fear water or something. What in the world do we make such a giant fiasco out of this stuff for? Can't we just go get baptized, yeah, in water, just like Jesus did! Can't we? Just can't we? Please?? The second coming will be here and gone and you guys will still be sitting in here fighting over water baptism! What's the freaking deal here? When do we get beyond this? Never? Well if we don't, how can we ever come to full knowledge of the truth? Never! That's when. Blindnesssssss......

 

[kardiaoangelous]

What an effective card to play.

If folks disagree with you then they're like those numb numbs who couldn't comprehend all the spiritual stuff Jesus said.

That puts us in the place of the spiritually dense, and you on the same teaching level as Jesus.

Why should you be insulted? We were all the same before God was able to help us.

The only difference is the humility of our hearts. If we have hearts that resist softening they stay stone. Some for a time, some for a longer time, and unfortunately some never become willing to give their heart to be softened.

It is not a boast of being better than you except to your fleshly frame of mind which is yet quick to take offense.

 

[livingepistle]

I am enjoying this thread. For Christians to be a light unto the world, we must be united concerning our doctrinal beliefs.

For those that are opposed to water baptism being essential

Will someone that does not believe water baptism is essential to receiving salvation, please give a Biblical definition of what salvation is...provide chapter and verse.

I would like to assist in speeding the process...here are some scriptures that may help to get you started.:

Acts 4:12
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
Acts 13:47
47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

Romans 1:16
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Philippians 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Hebrews 9:27-28
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1 Peter 1:3-9
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith-of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Revelation 19:1
1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

Please include where it is written that we are "baptized" in the Spirit.

 

[Abiding]

dang hes still over my head Mo!

 

[Kerry]

Thief on the cross. A man or women that accepts Jesus on his deathbed. John 3:16 mentions no baptism.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

If I use a spray bottle on my face, will that count? Cause hey! I've got to argue this thing to death, though I've no idea why, unless I fear water or something. What in the world do we make such a giant fiasco out of this stuff for? Can't we just go get baptized, yeah, in water, just like Jesus did! Can't we? Just can't we? Please?? The second coming will be here and gone and you guys will still be sitting in here fighting over water baptism! What's the freaking deal here? When do we get beyond this? Never? Well if we don't, how can we ever come to full knowledge of the truth? Never! That's when. Blindnesssssss......

I do it because it is only the truth that sets one free. The truth of God's word which means life to us. If we do not hunger for that truth then we will not receive the benefits of that truth. And that truth is the word of God which was in Christ as he lived by every word from out of the Father's mouth. To faithfully crave for and eat of that word is to eat of Christ's body. And that is how we receive life through Christ and in Christ's body, his true church, as described at Hebrews 12:18-24

 

[1still_waters]

Thief on the cross. A man or women that accepts Jesus on his deathbed. John 3:16 mentions no baptism.

Obviously exceptions are made if you're stuck on a cross, or stuck on a bed and can't get to water.

These exception to the rule for some, should not become the rule for all.

 

[jinx]

forget the boots,

I need my coveralls.

I get sick and tired of scripture being tossed out by so called Christians all because of their own pride and narcissism in their own traditions and beliefs.

And this garbage about not needing instruction but only by the HOLY SPIRIT, no leaders, no wisdom from those before us, is just that .... GARBAGE and the people saying it are hypocrites, because they say all we need is the HOLY SPIRIT to teach us and nothing else yet throw a hissy-fit when we reject their so called "doctrine" that they push on the rest of us. As if it is ok for them to "teach us" but everyone else is wrong.

I and many others have posted scripture.

we have dissected the scripture with strong concordance,

We don't know how to make it any more plain that the black and white scripture we presented here.

SO NOW it is at the point that people who deny, YES I SAID DENY SCRIPTURE should be left to their own devises and hope and pray GOD gives them revelation in due time.

you all know who you are.

so go ahead and say we "interpreted it wrong" or that we took it out of context.

It doesn't change the fact that everyone sees some in this thread or in denial. very deep, pull up your boots, denial.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I am enjoying this thread. For Christians to be a light unto the world, we must be united concerning our doctrinal beliefs.

For those that are opposed to water baptism being essential

Will someone that does not believe water baptism is essential to receiving salvation, please give a Biblical definition of what salvation is...provide chapter and verse.

I would like to assist in speeding the process...here are some scriptures that may help to get you started.:

Acts 4:12
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
Acts 13:47
47 For this is what the Lord has commanded us: " 'I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.'"

Romans 1:16
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

Philippians 2:12-13
12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Hebrews 9:27-28
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

1 Peter 1:3-9
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade-kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. 7 These have come so that your faith-of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. 8 Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9 for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

Revelation 19:1
1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: "Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

Please include where it is written that we are "baptized" in the Spirit.

There is a certain brother with us a goodly part of the time for whose sake I have been holding back fully addressing that subject for now. I believe that he is making good progress but I also have reason to believe that if I approach that too abruptly he might recoil in fear and cease to grow in small steps. The fact is that particular brother is the one around whom I have set my pace as I see the depth of his love so greatly.

But you can look in the things I speak concerning how I see us as acquiring the spirit for now. It is there. It is just not being spoken loudly as of yet.

 

[Kerry]

Obviously exceptions are made if you're stuck on a cross, or stuck on a bed and can't get to water.

These exception to the rule for some, should not become the rule for all.

I agree that we should be baptised, However, I do not agree that it is a requirement for salvation. I will reference John 3:16 again. No Mention of baptism. Only believe in your heart and confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ and the same shall be saved. We should not add requirements that God does not give.