Is baptism Essential for salvation?

[kardiaoangelous]

You are right on only about the death, burial and resurrection, the water Babtism was a forshadow of this as John said he was to decrease and Christ was to increase.
Any way we are if we both do believe in Christ as our Savior Citizens of heaven yes?

There are a couple of things I see happening in this thread homward.

(1) There is a false idea yet believed that works of faith are the same as the works Paul was speaking of when he said we are not saved by works but by grace so that it means no works are required else it would be by works and not by grace.

That is a game people are playing on themselves in their mind and so it can be argued with by the other extreme.

The truth is that it is impossible for faith to exist apart from works. A faith which is void of works is but a lie.

That matter needs to be correctly divided by bringing in considerations of Hebrews 11 and James 2 and so forth.

The fact that a work must be there if our faith be real in no way undermines that it is only by grace we are saved, for it is only by grace that God chooses to recognize a work as faith. Abraham's faith was not recognized until it proved to be there by the work of faith, and that is what James 2 clearly tells us and Hebrews 11 provides many examples of.

Genesis 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." How? How did Noah find grace in God's eyes? Noah was doing differently than the world around him as concerns their respect for God. The world around him was corrupting themselves but God saw that Noah was busy with right works of faith. Thus Noah found Grace in God's eyes.

What was Noah then in addition to that required to do to be saved? Would Noah have been saved if he had not endured to the end in his obedience doing the works that God gave him to do building that Ark? No, of course not.

This matter needs to be rightly divided.

(2) I will reserve this one for later and ask you first to all come to agreement on number (1).

 

[jinx]

Welcome back to the conversation homie.

Jinx, are you saying without Water Babtism, one can not recieve the Holy Ghost?

People received the infilling of the HOLY SPIRIT before the water baptism many times in scriptures, you know that.

Water Babtism is not the washing away of sins,

Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Peter 3:21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

I don't ever, EVER see in the BIBLE where they say WATER BAPTISM is SYMBOLIC. It is always said in the bible as something that must be done, EVEN AFTER the infilling of the HOLY SPIRIT.

Ephesians 1:13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians was a letter written to already born again believers in the church of Ephesus, they had to believe, repent, be baptized, and be infilled with the HOLY SPIRIT just like everyone else in the early church.

Tell me. Did the church of Ephesus only have to believe?

or did they also have to repent?

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Just take in aht allyou are saying and sift it through our hearts where the Holy Ghost resides and willseperate truth form error,not always caling waht you do not see as error, it might not be time yet for me or you or anyone else tosee any or all truth as of yet. I remember my younger years in retortion and later on God through the hidden man of my heart revealed the truth to me that just set me free and I wa overahelmed with thanksgiving and praise ae King David was when he saw afar off our Lord Christ was a coming to reddem us, and he believed and yelled out
Psalm 100:4Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.
And this was before the resurrection of Christ where we recieve the Babtism of the Holt Ghost as a Guiarantee

1. 2 Corinthians 1:22
   who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
   2 Corinthians 1:21-23 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
2. 2 Corinthians 5:5Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
   2 Corinthians 5:4-6 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations
3. Ephesians 1:14who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
   Ephesians 1:13-15 (in Context) Ephesians 1 (Whole Chapter) Other Translations

I knew that one would be difficult for you when I wrote it. But fear not. Have faith in God's word just as you do, and I will help you grasp what was said there. But first resolve what I asked in post #861

 

[homwardbound]

I am going to proceed on to show you why I said what Cobus and others who speak that way are mixed with screaming.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit by Peter using his keys to the kingdom was a three time event for the church to get it rooted into the earth. I will defend this with scripture later, as this will give those who are beginning to understand, a chance to have the spirit on the word complete the picture for them, without me having to speak it. That is how it is meant to work so that those who are elect of God can be discerned of the ones who are able to do that, as only the elect of God are as John here describes, 1 John 2:27 "But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."

So, as I said, The baptism of the Holy Spirit by Peter using his keys to the kingdom was a three time event for the church to get it rooted into the earth. First to the Jews, second to the Samaritans, and third to the Gentiles. These are the only times that baptism of the Holy Spirit in the manner of the prophecy of Joel occurred.

From there it was all done by the spirit on the word itself, even as i am doing now.

1 Corinthians 3:5 ¶Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

And that is whether of Flesh works or Spirit of God's works showing the powerof God in and at the cross and how deep this wonderful gift of God goes unto the one's that do believe unto 100% new people each individually and collectively by God not by earthly Churches. God's kingdom is not of this earth otherwise God would have fought instead of humbling himself to the cross. This world is opposite of God and God opposite of this world. The flesh always fights against the Spirt of God, and God does not fight back in a flesh manner no he just shows his Love which leads men to repentof his own works and seeks God to Babtize themwith the Holy Spirit of promise. And god does this if one will see the the power of Christ at the cross, especially the resurrection and thus recieve new life from God the Father as he alreadt did for his one and only son that we can now be identified with Christ as one with Christ not by any works of our own, but by his works alone

 

[jinx]

You don't get it. Christ's baptism was of the Holy Spirit AND water. Baptism was a part of Jewish tradition waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before Christ and JOhn the Baptist came around. What did that tradition consist of? Being FULLY immersed into WATER! The act was simply carried out into Christianity. If Christ was baptized by BOTH spirit AND water and Christ commands it HIMSELF, what is so hard about doing what he asks? It's a command. Is it not to be followed like all his other commands? Let God take care of the ones who are incapable of full immersion and let US do what Christ commanded! I don't see what is so hard to understand about this. I really don't.

Thank you for pointing this out. The OT tabernacle of dealing with sin is a foreshadow of the NT ways of dealing with sin.
***claps hands****

 

[homwardbound]

Yes, all we need to discern from scripture beyond that is where, how, and for whom the laying on of the hands came in. Then we have the whole picture.

Only as God is willing to reveal it to whomever God chooses for God's reason and I just trust this AMEN = So be it

 

[jinx]

Jinx got caught in a heretical trap because the person like some others could not explain the salvation of Abraham, Moses and David. Which is why Jinx just shut it down and stopped discussing the topic and switched to truck and dog chat.

But the posts are up so everyone can see the Biblical error of those who are trying to say baptism is necessary for salvation.

can't get rid of me that easy Omega. a person has to sleep sometime, some of us work for a living.

 

[jinx]

Faith without works is dead. We need both faith AND works. Come on...I figured this out years ago....I don't see what's so hard about getting immersed into water and spirit. If Jesus did it, surely everyone else can but people get caught up in the "it's only a works issue". This shouldn't matter. Jesus was baptized and he commanded it. If it's a command, the only logic is "we should follow through." It's not that difficult.

OOOO I like her.

 

[jinx]

When a baby is born about how much water is of the baby 90% or something like that BORN OF THE WATER Sister
John 3:5Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
John 3:6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

So it is like zone said..... you have to be human in order to go to heaven. bwahahaha.LOL

 

[homwardbound]

You don't get it. Christ's baptism was of the Holy Spirit AND water. Baptism was a part of Jewish tradition waaaaaaaaaaaaaay before Christ and JOhn the Baptist came around. What did that tradition consist of? Being FULLY immersed into WATER! The act was simply carried out into Christianity. If Christ was baptized by BOTH spirit AND water and Christ commands it HIMSELF, what is so hard about doing what he asks? It's a command. Is it not to be followed like all his other commands? Let God take care of the ones who are incapable of full immersion and let US do what Christ commanded! I don't see what is so hard to understand about this. I really don't.

His water Babtism that was never public prior was to fulfill all Law so he could go the cross and bring home a new Covenant, new laws, the Law of Love God's type best described in 1 Cor 13:4-13 and a new Priesthood on the order of Melchisadek
he said this to John when he wanted John to Babtise him,and John had said no I (John) need Babtised of you
Matthew 3:14And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”

And then read it all in context and Christ said he had to do all that is right, if he had not then there could be no new laws, noe new Covenat and no new priesthood, yet becasue he did fulfill all Law and Prophets we are today in this new Covenant
not under the old
[h=3]Hebrews 9:15-17[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
[h=3]The Mediator’s Death Necessary[/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.

Hebrews 7:11
[ Need for a New Priesthood ] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:12For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

Only as God is willing to reveal it to whomever God chooses for God's reason and I just trust this AMEN = So be it

What endears me to you in my affections is the great humility that generally dominates your spirit. That is why even when you think you see that I am about to be over-reached by the flesh I gracefully accept it as well meant and always a necessary precaution even if you had not said it. Such are precautions issued of love which only a foolish man would spurn of his pride.

I love you, homward, with the sincere affection of a brother in Christ. Nothing I say to you is not well thought out in advance. Like you, I have had to go through near literal death before God was able by his Holy Spirit to reach into my heart. I therefore, also like you, do not lament my literal near death experiences as though feeling sorry for myself. I can't, for how could I, having gained so much by them?

Let us be the example to others in not letting our flesh turn this into a competition. You have great understanding but not of yourself. If it were not of God you would not understand as much as you do. And I accept that as proof that God has set his seal upon you. And while seeing that I also see much more. I see that I too had held onto some of the smaller things that you have yet to let go of. And I have no doubt that there are moments where I also have showed signs of hanging onto things that you once held onto but have now advanced beyond. God allows it to work this way, as we both know, revealling what each one is able to receive when they are able to receive it, that we working together can also share and learn his love all the more by having to do some of our learning from each other.

And i know in my heart that you right heart agrees.

 

[kardiaoangelous]

And that is whether of Flesh works or Spirit of God's works showing the powerof God in and at the cross and how deep this wonderful gift of God goes unto the one's that do believe unto 100% new people each individually and collectively by God not by earthly Churches. God's kingdom is not of this earth otherwise God would have fought instead of humbling himself to the cross. This world is opposite of God and God opposite of this world. The flesh always fights against the Spirt of God, and God does not fight back in a flesh manner no he just shows his Love which leads men to repentof his own works and seeks God to Babtize themwith the Holy Spirit of promise. And god does this if one will see the the power of Christ at the cross, especially the resurrection and thus recieve new life from God the Father as he alreadt did for his one and only son that we can now be identified with Christ as one with Christ not by any works of our own, but by his works alone

Precisely!!!

There is yet one more thing, though, and I think you realize it.

That one more thing homward has to do with who are so sealed. Revelation 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Not all are so sealed but only God's elect. And that does not mean the rest are left to die.

Those sealed elect become "his temple" per Rev 7:15 and his "living fountains of waters" per Rev 7:17.

The unsealed ones are the great crowd who have come out of the furnace of the great tribulation per Rev 7:13-14

 

[Vestarena]

So it is like zone said..... you have to be human in order to go to heaven. bwahahaha.LOL

Hey! I'm taking my dog to heaven with me. I already cleared that with God. So no, you don't have to be human.

 

[JesusChica1991]

I wish I could take my doggy to heaven with me :/ she is being put down in 3.5 hours :/

 

[homwardbound]

Jinx got caught in a heretical trap because the person like some others could not explain the salvation of Abraham, Moses and David. Which is why Jinx just shut it down and stopped discussing the topic and switched to truck and dog chat.

But the posts are up so everyone can see the Biblical error of those who are trying to say baptism is necessary for salvation.

And it truly is only God by the Spirit of God that can reveal truth to all that do actually believe.
Ephesians 3:5which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets:
Titus 3:5not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

1 John 4:13By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
1 John 3:24
[ The Spirit of Truth and the Spirit of Error ] Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

And what are his commandments? I do think it Love God's type
Colossians 3:14But above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfection.
1 John 3:23And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
What no water Babtism hymmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOVE God's way not man's and if we onlylove those that love us

Matthew 5:46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?
[h=3]Luke 18:8-14[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”
[h=3]The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector[/h][SUP]9 [/SUP]Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: [SUP]10 [/SUP]“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. [SUP]11 [/SUP]The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. [SUP]12 [/SUP]I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ [SUP]14 [/SUP]I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[kardiaoangelous]

I wish I could take my doggy to heaven with me :/ she is being put down in 3.5 hours :/

Very sorry to here that. i know how hard that is.

Hey! I'm taking my dog to heaven with me. I already cleared that with God. So no, you don't have to be human.

Well, I am going to tell you for a certainty that if you get there before your dog passes, you will get there and your dog will yet be with you.

Your dog will not need to itself go to heaven but it will yet be with you while you are in heaven.

But I am not going to explain that in detail for now. It requires sorting through and rightly dividing the word of God as to other beliefs which are not part of what we are right now discussing.

 

[jinx]

I wish I could take my doggy to heaven with me :/ she is being put down in 3.5 hours :/

oh no chica I am so sorry for your loss hun! I pray GOD helps it go good and helps you heal (((hugs)))

 

[homwardbound]

Faith without works is dead. We need both faith AND works. Come on...I figured this out years ago....I don't see what's so hard about getting immersed into water and spirit. If Jesus did it, surely everyone else can but people get caught up in the "it's only a works issue". This shouldn't matter. Jesus was baptized and he commanded it. If it's a command, the only logic is "we should follow through." It's not that difficult.

Faith with self works is dead, there is a big differance James went onto explain this you show me your works that created your Faith (as what saul did before he changed to Paul) and gave up hid own righteousness.
Then James says and I (James) speaking said that he will show you God's works produced by his Faith. Works follow Faith in Christ, not the other way around
That is waht a lot of us are doing trying to get it across that it is all God and none of us
Faith with God's works what he did for us at the cross is Salvation by Christ and does not viod the powere there of

 

[homwardbound]

There are a couple of things I see happening in this thread homward.

(1) There is a false idea yet believed that works of faith are the same as the works Paul was speaking of when he said we are not saved by works but by grace so that it means no works are required else it would be by works and not by grace.

That is a game people are playing on themselves in their mind and so it can be argued with by the other extreme.

The truth is that it is impossible for faith to exist apart from works. A faith which is void of works is but a lie.

That matter needs to be correctly divided by bringing in considerations of Hebrews 11 and James 2 and so forth.

The fact that a work must be there if our faith be real in no way undermines that it is only by grace we are saved, for it is only by grace that God chooses to recognize a work as faith. Abraham's faith was not recognized until it proved to be there by the work of faith, and that is what James 2 clearly tells us and Hebrews 11 provides many examples of.

Genesis 6:8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD." How? How did Noah find grace in God's eyes? Noah was doing differently than the world around him as concerns their respect for God. The world around him was corrupting themselves but God saw that Noah was busy with right works of faith. Thus Noah found Grace in God's eyes.

What was Noah then in addition to that required to do to be saved? Would Noah have been saved if he had not endured to the end in his obedience doing the works that God gave him to do building that Ark? No, of course not.

This matter needs to be rightly divided.

(2) I will reserve this one for later and ask you first to all come to agreement on number (1).

Phillipians 3 should answer this:
[h=3]Philippians 3:1-21[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[h=3]All for Christ[/h]3 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. For me to write the same things to you is not tedious, but for you it is safe.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! [SUP]3 [/SUP]For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, [SUP]4 [/SUP]though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: [SUP]5 [/SUP]circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; [SUP]6 [/SUP]concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ [SUP]9 [/SUP]and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; [SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, [SUP]11 [/SUP]if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
[h=3]Pressing Toward the Goal[/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, [SUP]14 [/SUP]I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.
[h=3]Our Citizenship in Heaven[/h][SUP]17 [/SUP]Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. [SUP]18 [/SUP]For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: [SUP]19 [/SUP]whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame—who set their mind on earthly things. [SUP]20[/SUP]For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]21 [/SUP]who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

 

[homwardbound]

Welcome back to the conversation homie.

People received the infilling of the HOLY SPIRIT before the water baptism many times in scriptures, you know that.


Act 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.




I don't ever, EVER see in the BIBLE where they say WATER BAPTISM is SYMBOLIC. It is always said in the bible as something that must be done, EVEN AFTER the infilling of the HOLY SPIRIT.



Ephesians was a letter written to already born again believers in the church of Ephesus, they had to believe, repent, be baptized, and be infilled with the HOLY SPIRIT just like everyone else in the early church.

Tell me. Did the church of Ephesus only have to believe?

or did they also have to repent?

So water Babtism then is not a requirment for Salvation then is it?
What about Holy Ghost Babtism is it needed for one to be saved?
And you are still not answering why John said he must dcrease, (water Babtism) and Christ must increase?
it appears we agree that water Babtism is not a requirment for salvation, but definately is a good Conscious towards God and thank you for the welcome back as I am surely not here to tear up the body of Christ just looking to rightly divide the word of truth