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L
Moses baptized crossing “through” the Red Sea:
1 Corinthians 10:1” Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Proof from the NT that Moses and the Children of Israel received, anointed with, came upon them; fill-in your proclivity to the answer, the Holy Spirit and were baptized by water when passing through the (midst) depths of the Red Sea.
Before we move on to David and Abraham, I would like your answer to what I just presented to you.
Shalom
Brotherly love is extended unto you.
1 Corinthians 10:1” Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Proof from the NT that Moses and the Children of Israel received, anointed with, came upon them; fill-in your proclivity to the answer, the Holy Spirit and were baptized by water when passing through the (midst) depths of the Red Sea.
Before we move on to David and Abraham, I would like your answer to what I just presented to you.
Shalom
Brotherly love is extended unto you.
L
Jinx, this entire OT conversation, the law was for the Children of Israel. Gentiles were no where, no way, included into any laws. Our redemption, Gentiles, were established with Abraham by one seed, Jesus, while Moses is antecedent to the salvation of the Children of Israel.
Galatians 3:14, That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
I really do not believe that they see this. By the way, good evening to you.
Galatians 3:14, That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
I really do not believe that they see this.
By the way, good evening to you. 
I don't understand why some people refer to the Old Testament as if it does not matter anymore. It really makes me sad when I read comments from some people who seem to think since we are now living under grace that we no longer have to pay attention to what the bible says in the OT. The bible is the word of God. Given to us by him for every area of our lives. For yesterday, today and tomorrow.
A
Moses baptized crossing “through” the Red Sea:
1 Corinthians 10:1” Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Proof from the NT that Moses and the Children of Israel received, anointed with, came upon them; fill-in your proclivity to the answer, the Holy Spirit and were baptized by water when passing through the (midst) depths of the Red Sea.
Before we move on to David and Abraham, I would like your answer to what I just presented to you.
Shalom
Brotherly love is extended unto you.
1 Corinthians 10:1” Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Proof from the NT that Moses and the Children of Israel received, anointed with, came upon them; fill-in your proclivity to the answer, the Holy Spirit and were baptized by water when passing through the (midst) depths of the Red Sea.
Before we move on to David and Abraham, I would like your answer to what I just presented to you.
Shalom
Brotherly love is extended unto you.
J
Jinx, this entire OT conversation, the law was for the Children of Israel. Gentiles were no where, no way, included into any laws. Our redemption, Gentiles, were established with Abraham by one seed, Jesus, while Moses is antecedent to the salvation of the Children of Israel.
Galatians 3:14, That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
I really do not believe that they see this. By the way, good evening to you.
Galatians 3:14, That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
I really do not believe that they see this.
By the way, good evening to you.
good evening to you also brother.
L
This is not a metaphor, are you ignorant as Apostle Paul suggests. This is related or it would not have been written. You openly stated that Moses was not baptized. The Apostle Paul says that he is and not just he but all of Paul's fathers. He is not speaking in metaphors. You are a charade by conveniently leaving out your original comments: I will post your original statement for all to see.
Sounds emphatic to me, what about anyone else that want to help me interpret what A-O is saying. To you A-O, "Am I misinterpreting your comments?" You are wrong friend and just attempting to explain it away as a metaphor, Jesus does not think so. Proof of this follows with more scripture.
Colossians 2:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Baptism in Context to the aforementioned scriptures
Strong's G908 - baptisma
βάπτισμα
1) immersion, submersion
a) of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed
b) of John's baptism, that purification rite by which men on confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation, obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified for the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom soon to be set up. This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost.
c) of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as commanded by Christ, by which one after confessing his sins and professing his faith in Christ, having been born again by the Holy Spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the fellowship of Christ and the church.
In Rom 6:3, Paul states we are "baptised unto death" meaning that we are not only dead to our former ways, but they are buried. To return to them is as unthinkable for a Christian as for one to dig up a dead corpse! See also discussion of baptism under the previous Strong's number (907).
Are these metaphors also. Every interpretation in this Colossians scripture says it is referring to water baptism. You are not honest brother in your statements. You change words to support your error.
Now I will post the Mikvah/Mikveh, which proves that baptism was performed by the House of Israel and if you believe that David did not perform Mikvah before entering into the Temple, you would do yourself justice by seeking a scholar that understands the importance of Mikveh to the Jews that date back to Moses.
If there are any mistakes on my part that were overlooked, please anyone correct me and it will be appreciated. We are to be helpers one to another. SHALOM שָׁלוֹם
Sounds emphatic to me, what about anyone else that want to help me interpret what A-O is saying. To you A-O, "Am I misinterpreting your comments?"
You are wrong friend and just attempting to explain it away as a metaphor, Jesus does not think so. Proof of this follows with more scripture.Colossians 2:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Baptism in Context to the aforementioned scriptures
Strong's G908 - baptisma
βάπτισμα
1) immersion, submersion
a) of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed
b) of John's baptism, that purification rite by which men on confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation, obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified for the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom soon to be set up. This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost.
c) of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as commanded by Christ, by which one after confessing his sins and professing his faith in Christ, having been born again by the Holy Spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the fellowship of Christ and the church.
In Rom 6:3, Paul states we are "baptised unto death" meaning that we are not only dead to our former ways, but they are buried. To return to them is as unthinkable for a Christian as for one to dig up a dead corpse! See also discussion of baptism under the previous Strong's number (907).
Are these metaphors also. Every interpretation in this Colossians scripture says it is referring to water baptism. You are not honest brother in your statements. You change words to support your error.
Now I will post the Mikvah/Mikveh, which proves that baptism was performed by the House of Israel and if you believe that David did not perform Mikvah before entering into the Temple, you would do yourself justice by seeking a scholar that understands the importance of Mikveh to the Jews that date back to Moses.
If there are any mistakes on my part that were overlooked, please anyone correct me and it will be appreciated. We are to be helpers one to another.
SHALOM שָׁלוֹם
L
He is changing his statements now. He refuses to accept the fact that Moses and the children of Israel were baptized. Metaphors is his answer now for what he cannot accept in the Word. Too bad, he is very knowledgeable. He has my brotherly kindness though. Jesus reigns in my life with love for the brothers and sisters in Messiah.
L
You are rewriting it and misinterpreting it when you say it is a metaphor: Provide proof with scripture.
1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. I did not write this Paul did. The original story will follow the main body of text.
Exodus 14:13And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. 14] The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
21] And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 22] And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
Then Paul explains the Israelites were "baptized into Moses in the Cloud and in the sea." Again God through Paul tells us something else is different again about God's interaction with the Israelites. Now the Israelites are in the Cloud and in the sea. First we should look at the word baptize. If we refer to the original Greek word for baptize (baptizo) it is a transliterated word which means it was not translated but written in its original form. The original Greek word (baptizo) means to immerse or cover with water. This certainly describes what is happening to the Israelites in the Red Sea. Water was on both sides and above them.
Paul also states the Israelites were in the Cloud. Now it is appropriate to compare these verses in 1 Corinthians letter to the Book of Acts 2:38; Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. In this verse Peter the apostle is telling the Jews who had been responsible for the death of Jesus on the cross what they must do to receive the forgiveness of sins. Both elements are visible here in the Corinthian's letter. Baptism which is immersion in water and the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit or the presence of God are explained here.
The Israelites were not going to be saved from their Egyptian master without going through the Red Sea. If they chose to follow Moses directions from God, they could pass to the other side of the sea. The presence of God was first above them but as they passed through the sea they were also baptized (immersed) in the Cloud or the presence of God. Paul's message to the Corinthians was that this occurred simultaneously. It is not unusual that the Lord used the history of Israel to teach mankind lessons of faith. For whatever things were written before were written for our learning , that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.Romans 15:4
In being immersed unto Moses, Paul tells us the Israelites became partakers of Jesus Christ. They ate spiritually of his body and drank spiritually from the water of life who is Christ.
And Moses and the Israelites were baptized because they followed Moses across the Red Sea. If they had not, God would not have spared them. The Israelites who refused would have suffered the same fate as Pharaoh and his army. The Red Sea swallowed them.
All references are from the New King James translation of the Bible . ©1982
1 Corinthians 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. I did not write this Paul did. The original story will follow the main body of text.
Exodus 14:13And Moses said unto the people, Fear ye not, stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which he will shew to you to day: for the Egyptians whom ye have seen to day, ye shall see them again no more for ever. 14] The LORD shall fight for you, and ye shall hold your peace.
21] And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. 22] And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
Then Paul explains the Israelites were "baptized into Moses in the Cloud and in the sea." Again God through Paul tells us something else is different again about God's interaction with the Israelites. Now the Israelites are in the Cloud and in the sea. First we should look at the word baptize. If we refer to the original Greek word for baptize (baptizo) it is a transliterated word which means it was not translated but written in its original form. The original Greek word (baptizo) means to immerse or cover with water. This certainly describes what is happening to the Israelites in the Red Sea. Water was on both sides and above them.
Paul also states the Israelites were in the Cloud. Now it is appropriate to compare these verses in 1 Corinthians letter to the Book of Acts 2:38; Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. In this verse Peter the apostle is telling the Jews who had been responsible for the death of Jesus on the cross what they must do to receive the forgiveness of sins. Both elements are visible here in the Corinthian's letter. Baptism which is immersion in water and the receiving of the gift of the Holy Spirit or the presence of God are explained here.
The Israelites were not going to be saved from their Egyptian master without going through the Red Sea. If they chose to follow Moses directions from God, they could pass to the other side of the sea. The presence of God was first above them but as they passed through the sea they were also baptized (immersed) in the Cloud or the presence of God. Paul's message to the Corinthians was that this occurred simultaneously. It is not unusual that the Lord used the history of Israel to teach mankind lessons of faith. For whatever things were written before were written for our learning , that we through the patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.Romans 15:4
In being immersed unto Moses, Paul tells us the Israelites became partakers of Jesus Christ. They ate spiritually of his body and drank spiritually from the water of life who is Christ.
And Moses and the Israelites were baptized because they followed Moses across the Red Sea. If they had not, God would not have spared them. The Israelites who refused would have suffered the same fate as Pharaoh and his army. The Red Sea swallowed them.
All references are from the New King James translation of the Bible . ©1982
L
History of the Jewish Mikveh
The term mikveh in Hebrew literally means any gathering of waters, but is specifically used in Jewish law for the waters or bath for the ritual immersion. The building of the mikveh was so important in ancient times it was said to take precedence over the construction of a synagogue. Immersion was so important that it occurred before the high Priest conducted the service on the Day of Atonement, before the regular priests participated in the Temple service, before each person entered the Temple complex, before a scribe wrote the name of God, as well as several other occasions.
The Mishnah attributes to Ezra a decree that each male should immerse himself before praying or studying. There were several Jewish groups that observed ritual immersion every day to assure readiness for the coming of the Messiah. The Church Fathers mentioned one of these groups called Hemerobaptists, which means "daily bathers" in Greek. Among those used to regular immersion were the Essenes and others that the Talmud calls tovelei shaharit or "dawn bathers."
Water and Blood Both Illustrate God's Cleansing In Judaism
Both water and blood are used constantly in the Torah and the New Testament as the two main agents to illustrate God's cleansing. The Jews believe that uncleanness is not physical, but rather a spiritual condition as related in Leviticus 11:44 where it states by wrong actions one can make the "soul unclean." Therefore, the purification through ritual immersion, as commanded in Scripture is basically involved with the soul, rather than the body. Note how both water and blood are cited in Scripture: (1) Blood is used in cleansing in relation to the Passover Lamb (Exodus 12). (2) Blood is used in cleansing in relation to the Day of Atonement (Leviticus 16). (3) Blood is used in cleansing in relation to the Feast Offerings (Leviticus 23). (4) Blood is used in cleansing in relation to the five Levitical Offerings (Leviticus 1-7). (5) Blood is used in cleansing in relation to the atonement for the soul (Leviticus 17:11-14).
(1) Water is used in cleansing in relation to the separation and the ashes of the Red Heifer (Numbers 19). (2) Water is used in cleansing in relation to the consecration to priestly ministry (Leviticus 8:6). (3) Water is used in cleansing in relation to the cleansing of the leper (Leviticus 14:1-8). (4) Water is used in cleansing in relation to the different washings of the Law (Hebrews 9:10). (5) Water is used in relation to the remission of sins (Acts 2:38); Titus 3:5; Mark 16:16; Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3; I Peter 3:20-21; Ephesians 5:26; John 19:34; I John 5:6; Hebrews 9:19- 23).
Summary
A detailed study of the Jewish background of Christian baptism shows that it is vitally important, but God doesn't always tell us why. Obviously, the convert could repent and have a part in the life to come without it, but the emphasis seems to be pointing to the taking on of a new "believer" status illustrated as a "new birth" by immersion. In any covenant with the Lord the three items of God's Word, the blood, and a token are always present (Genesis 17:11). Jesus was always cautious to have three witnesses in everything He did (I John 5:7-8).
In the Old Testament circumcision was considered the token of God's covenant, and in the New Testament we see the same wording concerning baptism as it is referred to as "circumcision made without hands" (Colossians 2:11-12). Whatever religious denomination, all believers should agree that immersion has its roots in the Jewish mikveh of Jesus' day, and it is of utmost importance for each of us to fulfill this righteous deed. BY Ron Moseley, Ph. D.
Colossians 2:9-14
King James Version (KJV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Strong's G908 - baptisma
βάπτισμα
1) immersion, submersion
a) of calamities and afflictions with which one is quite overwhelmed
b) of John's baptism, that purification rite by which men on confessing their sins were bound to spiritual reformation, obtained the pardon of their past sins and became qualified for the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom soon to be set up. This was valid Christian baptism, as this was the only baptism the apostles received and it is not recorded anywhere that they were ever rebaptised after Pentecost.
c) of Christian baptism; a rite of immersion in water as commanded by Christ, by which one after confessing his sins and professing his faith in Christ, having been born again by the Holy Spirit unto a new life, identifies publicly with the fellowship of Christ and the church.
Colossians is the PLAN of salvation laid out in plain text. It was the LORD's plan from the beginning of humanity after the Garden of Eden expulsion of Adam and Eve. The first spilling of blood to cover Adam and Eve. through 42 generations to Jesus.
Attempting to separate water baptism from salvation is like this metaphor: A person looks at their body and decides that they do not need there right hand because it is not essential for the body to function. This is how outlandish it is to play with words concerning G-d's plan for redemption. "Is it necessary for the body to be whole?" yes. "Is the right hand essential to the body?" yes. "Is it essential for sight?" no.
Moses was baptized friend and so were the Levitical Priests; an everyday occurrence before blood atonement.
The thread asks a good question, but in light of what? You say you answered the definition of salvation--not.
L
WRONG, they were not saved just by believing. Your theology is flawed.
You stated that "NT and OT is saved in any different way"
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Stop hiding behind OceanGrl. She is on point. You on the other hand made a challenge to me and you still haven't answered my questions. LOL
I know you believe what you say is correct but it isn’t. All OT saints, including Abraham and Moses waited for the promise of Messiah to fulfill. None of them became “saved” until after the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
And just for the record, Abraham wasn't saved until Jesus rose from the dead, just like Moses and anyone else in the OT up to and including the thief on the cross. To say that they were saved at that particular time is to say that the blood of bulls, goats, sheep, turtledoves, and the cutting away of their foreskins (Genesis 17:26) saved them.
OT saints went by way of the grave down into paradise. They rose with Jesus when He rose. I am aware that many do not believe this but it is true just the same. Jesus is the only salvation: Acts 4:12 (NAS) "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Colossians spelled it out plain and simple concerning being buried with Christ, etc. Moses and the Hebrew passing through the midst of the Red Sea and being Covered in the CLOUD was an antecedent not metaphor to Messiah.
Definition of Antecedent:
an·te·ced·ent
/ˌantəˈsēdnt/
Noun: A thing or event that existed before or logically precedes another.
Adjective: Preceding in time or order; previous or preexisting. (Merriam-Webster)
Question:
What was the promise that G-d made to Moses, Abraham, and David?
You stated that "NT and OT is saved in any different way"
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Stop hiding behind OceanGrl.
She is on point. You on the other hand made a challenge to me and you still haven't answered my questions. LOLI know you believe what you say is correct but it isn’t. All OT saints, including Abraham and Moses waited for the promise of Messiah to fulfill. None of them became “saved” until after the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
And just for the record, Abraham wasn't saved until Jesus rose from the dead, just like Moses and anyone else in the OT up to and including the thief on the cross. To say that they were saved at that particular time is to say that the blood of bulls, goats, sheep, turtledoves, and the cutting away of their foreskins (Genesis 17:26) saved them.
OT saints went by way of the grave down into paradise. They rose with Jesus when He rose. I am aware that many do not believe this but it is true just the same. Jesus is the only salvation: Acts 4:12 (NAS) "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Colossians spelled it out plain and simple concerning being buried with Christ, etc. Moses and the Hebrew passing through the midst of the Red Sea and being Covered in the CLOUD was an antecedent not metaphor to Messiah.
Definition of Antecedent:
an·te·ced·ent
/ˌantəˈsēdnt/
Noun: A thing or event that existed before or logically precedes another.
Adjective: Preceding in time or order; previous or preexisting. (Merriam-Webster)
Question:
What was the promise that G-d made to Moses, Abraham, and David?
Last edited by a moderator:
WRONG, they were not saved just by believing. Your theology is flawed.
You stated that "NT and OT is saved in any different way"
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Stop hiding behind OceanGrl. She is on point. You on the other hand made a challenge to me and you still haven't answered my questions. LOL
I know you believe what you say is correct but it isn’t. All OT saints, including Abraham and Moses waited for the promise of Messiah to fulfill. None of them became “saved” until after the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
And just for the record, Abraham wasn't saved until Jesus rose from the dead, just like Moses and anyone else in the OT up to and including the thief on the cross. To say that they were saved at that particular time is to say that the blood of bulls, goats, sheep, turtledoves, and the cutting away of their foreskins (Genesis 17:26) saved them.
OT saints went by way of the grave down into paradise. They rose with Jesus when He rose. I am aware that many do not believe this but it is true just the same. Jesus is the only salvation: Acts 4:12 (NAS) "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Colossians spelled it out plain and simple concerning being buried with Christ, etc. Moses and the Hebrew passing through the midst of the Red Sea and being Covered in the CLOUD was an antecedent not metaphor to Messiah.
Definition of Antecedent:
an·te·ced·ent
/ˌantəˈsēdnt/
Noun: A thing or event that existed before or logically precedes another.
Adjective: Preceding in time or order; previous or preexisting. (Merriam-Webster)
Question:
What was the promise that G-d made to Moses, Abraham, and David?
You stated that "NT and OT is saved in any different way"
Mark 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15] And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16] He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Stop hiding behind OceanGrl.
She is on point. You on the other hand made a challenge to me and you still haven't answered my questions. LOLI know you believe what you say is correct but it isn’t. All OT saints, including Abraham and Moses waited for the promise of Messiah to fulfill. None of them became “saved” until after the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
And just for the record, Abraham wasn't saved until Jesus rose from the dead, just like Moses and anyone else in the OT up to and including the thief on the cross. To say that they were saved at that particular time is to say that the blood of bulls, goats, sheep, turtledoves, and the cutting away of their foreskins (Genesis 17:26) saved them.
OT saints went by way of the grave down into paradise. They rose with Jesus when He rose. I am aware that many do not believe this but it is true just the same. Jesus is the only salvation: Acts 4:12 (NAS) "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved.”
Colossians spelled it out plain and simple concerning being buried with Christ, etc. Moses and the Hebrew passing through the midst of the Red Sea and being Covered in the CLOUD was an antecedent not metaphor to Messiah.
Definition of Antecedent:
an·te·ced·ent
/ˌantəˈsēdnt/
Noun: A thing or event that existed before or logically precedes another.
Adjective: Preceding in time or order; previous or preexisting. (Merriam-Webster)
Question:
What was the promise that G-d made to Moses, Abraham, and David?
And when they were not saved it was never by anything that they were not saved but by God's declared judgment to them of death. God's spoken word of judgment, “Let life be taken away.”
By God's Word life comes forth and by God's Word life is taken away.
And now hear please God's spoken word and receive understanding of it. All baptisms in any manner are always baptisms of God's spoken word of judgment to either life or to the taking away of lief which means death. Baptism is always in reality about God's spoken Word by his judgment either to life or to end life.
And water has always been used as the symbol of God's spoken word of judgment, either to call forth life and light or to call back that life and light which he gave.
When this earth was formed it was first covered completely by water with God's Spirit, yeh, God's Holy Word “moved upon the face of the waters.”
There at Genesis 1:2, that word, “moved”, comes from a Hebrew word which implies how a hen hovers over her hatchlings as to “brood” them, that life can mature forth for them. Look it up. It is Strong's 7363 rachaph -- a primitive root; to brood His Spirit brooded over the water as his word of judgment calling life from the earth, “Let Life Come to Be.” God's very name means, in the causitive form. “He who causes to become.” But many of you have even obscured that by means of false doctrine.
That water was as the water of a womb of made of God's Word. It was as God's spoken word, “Let life come to be in the earth.”
And God by his spoken word said: Genesis 1:3 “Let there be light: and there was light” Genesis 1:5 “And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night”
And God by his spoken word said: Genesis 1:6 “Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.” Genesis 1:8 “And God called the firmament Heaven.”
And we see God using His spoken word over and over again throughout Genesis chapter one, yet so many of you refuse to hear God speak.
Upon that that ancient world perishing by water that water represented God's spoken Word of Judgment upon a disobedient world cleansing that world of filth. And that is the comparison we seeing being made at 1 Peter 3:15-22.
Look at it and cease not listening to God you who fear Him. Read it and see that baptism is compared to that water of God's spoken word of judgment upon that disobedient world, cleansing that world of filth.
Wake up!!! See the error that some of you are making. Some of you are saying we are saved BY that water at 1 Peter 3:15-22, when in fact we were saved from that water as it was God's adverse judgment upon a world of unrighteousness, cleansing this earth of filth.
We are saved from God's declared judgment also upon this present world of unrighteousness by God's spoken word declaring life in Christ. And Christ is our Ark of salvation by the Word of God.
1 Peter 3:15 “But sanctify<[make holy] the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.
17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water? I think Not! “by” is “dia” -- a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through
They were saved through [All of them together in the Ark that is Christ passing through and not perishing with] God's spoken judgment upon an ungodly world (the water of God's Word in the form of judgment) The spoken judgment clearing away of the filth of the flesh.
But, we are saved through [not perishing with it but passing through] God's spoken judgment upon this present world of ungodliness by the water of God's Word declaring life in Christ.
Now understand, please:
21 The like figure [to that Ark being saved through and thus escaping God's judgment upon the world] whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
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This is not a metaphor, are you ignorant as Apostle Paul suggests. This is related or it would not have been written. You openly stated that Moses was not baptized. The Apostle Paul says that he is and not just he but all of Paul's fathers. He is not speaking in metaphors. You are a charade by conveniently leaving out your original comments: I will post your original statement for all to see.
LOL. Isn't it interesting that you keep speaking about Moses' "water baptism' but you do not even cite the actual verses from Exodus or provide any explanation of it??
Let's go to the text and see:
"
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the Lord caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left." - Exodus 14.
This was not a water baptism. Moses was not literally immersed. This would be obvious to a 1st grader reading this sentence. So when Paul is referencing the "baptism of Moses", clearly it cannot be a literal water baptism in view.
So let's go to Paul's text:
"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; [SUP]2 [/SUP]And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted."
So now the "baptism unto Moses" is the same as being baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? No. Of course note. It is a type and shadow of the baptism in Jesus' name. Moses is a type of Christ. The Israelites, in their faith, followed Moses through the Red Sea. All this is just a picture of salvation through faith in Christ.
Hence Paul saying in verse 6, "these things were our examples." He did not say "now you must literally do these things to be saved. We don't have to part the red sea or go up in a cloud to be baptized. You are taking a type and trying to make it into Christ. Once again, people are here clinging to the shadow. Instead of looking to the real Jesus Christ.
Sounds emphatic to me, what about anyone else that want to help me interpret what A-O is saying. To you A-O, "Am I misinterpreting your comments?" You are wrong friend and just attempting to explain it away as a metaphor, Jesus does not think so. Proof of this follows with more scripture.
Colossians 2:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
You are wrong friend and just attempting to explain it away as a metaphor, Jesus does not think so. Proof of this follows with more scripture.Colossians 2:9-14 King James Version (KJV)
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Okay, so now you are claiming that you were literally buried with Christ when you were baptized? This still is not metaphorical language??? Wow.
I don't even get your point here.
Considering David was dead before the temple was completed, I don't think he was doing a mikveh before going in. lol.
I honestly don't understand what your point it. If you are trying to prove through Scripture that baptism has salvation power or some supernatural effect, you have not done so.
If you are trying to show that Abraham, Moses and David were baptized you have not shown that either.
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"but he that believeth not shall be damned" - No mention of Baptism requirement.
Stop hiding behind OceanGrl. She is on point. You on the other hand made a challenge to me and you still haven't answered my questions. LOL
I know you believe what you say is correct but it isn’t. All OT saints, including Abraham and Moses waited for the promise of Messiah to fulfill. None of them became “saved” until after the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
She is on point. You on the other hand made a challenge to me and you still haven't answered my questions. LOLI know you believe what you say is correct but it isn’t. All OT saints, including Abraham and Moses waited for the promise of Messiah to fulfill. None of them became “saved” until after the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus the Messiah.
Right, so Abraham, moses and David were tormented in Hell until Christ rose from the grave, right? Or were they in purgatory??? See how error-filled your false doctrine is???
"And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir. [SUP]4 [/SUP]And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness." - Genesis 15.
That was it. That was the moment Abraham was saved. Are you really going to say that God counting his faith as "righteousness" was not "good enough"? Now you are going beyond God's personal approval and making your own standard? Again, this is just heresy.
Jesus Christ saved them. Christ was promised in Genesis 3:15 to the first 2 people on Earth. The Gospel was preached to humanity well before Abraham's birth.
And where did OT people who died in their sins go? Why would there be any difference in the fates of the two group if the believers were not saved? Everything you're saying is illogical.
More riddles. Just say what you mean and provide Scripture because all I am reading here is spiritual confusion.
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Since I will be gone all day I just want to clairfy my objections to Living epistle and everyone else preaching the works-based salvation.
1. Abraham, Moses and David - Just list the verses that detail their baptism.
2. Explain how they were saved.
It's just this simple. There has only been one Gospel from the foundation of the world: faith in Jesus Christ. The covenants were God's contracts with humanity to bring the Gospel to fruition. The old covenant, or mosaic, passed away in John 19. When the New Covenant was instituted it required a signature. The Abrahamic covenant sign was circumcision. The new covenant sign is baptism. Baptism has replaced circumcision as the entry sign into the New Covenant. It's just that simple. Baptism does not save nor have any supernatural power. Just as Abraham was saved before being circumcised. It is just our signature to the covenant we have entered into with The Lord. This is why the thief on the cross was saved without baptism.
Preaching that baptism is necessary for salvation or that Old testament believers were saved in some other manner is a FALSE GOSPEL. That is the only reason I have been so persistent in refuting it. It is only out of a concern for God's Word and the souls of those who may read a false Gospel and be misled. Jesus Christ did everything necessary for salvation. We only need believe. God bless.
1. Abraham, Moses and David - Just list the verses that detail their baptism.
2. Explain how they were saved.
It's just this simple. There has only been one Gospel from the foundation of the world: faith in Jesus Christ. The covenants were God's contracts with humanity to bring the Gospel to fruition. The old covenant, or mosaic, passed away in John 19. When the New Covenant was instituted it required a signature. The Abrahamic covenant sign was circumcision. The new covenant sign is baptism. Baptism has replaced circumcision as the entry sign into the New Covenant. It's just that simple. Baptism does not save nor have any supernatural power. Just as Abraham was saved before being circumcised. It is just our signature to the covenant we have entered into with The Lord. This is why the thief on the cross was saved without baptism.
Preaching that baptism is necessary for salvation or that Old testament believers were saved in some other manner is a FALSE GOSPEL. That is the only reason I have been so persistent in refuting it. It is only out of a concern for God's Word and the souls of those who may read a false Gospel and be misled. Jesus Christ did everything necessary for salvation. We only need believe. God bless.