We all like to belive we go to heaven as soon as we die but thats not so no on actually goes to heaven until the second coming of christ an the judgment.... the bible tells us in 1 thesolonias that none will proceed us to heaven it also says he dead an christ shall rise first if they where already in heaven why would they need to rise... now many of you may use the scripture absent with the body present with the lord to aegue against it but this scripture only means after we die our next conceious thought will be with the lord but not thwt we will be with him immedtly after death.
the hard truth
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Correct. Many people believe the Thief that was crucified next to Jesus went to heaven that same day with Jesus. But, if we study the scripture. We can know that Jesus didn't go to heaven when He died nor did the theif. But,, folks are adamant that the thief shot straight up to heaven because of these words:
"Verily I say to you today thou shalt be with Me in paradise"
Acctually i do belive the thief on the cross is one of he few people in the bible who has already gone to heaven theres was one or two others but i cant think right now to early... ive seen alot of your post an your adament about aruging against scripture bit as you pointed out it clearly says today you shall be with me in paradise an my Gods not a lier.
Ok Matt,but:
Scripture is indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit,, but not Punctuation.
This is wrong: "Verily I say to you ,,,,TODAY you shall be in paradise."
This is right: "Verily I say to you TODAY, you shall be with Me in Paradise."
Matt,, read John 20:17,,, Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and to your Father, and to My God, and to you God."
Matt, Line upon line, Precept upon precept.
Ether way it still says he will be in paradise an yes ive read the scripture he hadent acended to heaven yet but he did ill find the scripture for you if i need to..... an i assume your point was he couldnt have been with christ in paradise that day if christ hadnt gone yet himself which would leave room for disscusion on the specifics of the topic but not really. On the outcome the thief still went to heaven with christ there would be no point in the scripture being there if that wasnt so.
No long has the bible taught that the dead shall rise for judgment an some will live eternal in paradise others will be sent to hell it seems only resonly has satan been trying to teach that the dead stay dead... he's a crafty one an its not a bad plan if he can convince people the dead stay dead an mangage to make it look like scripture says so he will lead many christians asrtay because if the dead just stayed that way what would be the point of living a godly life if i was just gonna stag dead after i died there be no reason for me to worry about not sinning id just do whatever i wanted...... wether you relize it or not youve fallen into satans trap brother an he is using you for his gain.
You are espousing something that is far from any truth.
Yes the dead in Christ will rise first because they have six feet further to rise. Believers are resurrected first they are reunited with their bodies with the Lord in the air. They are receiving their glorified bodies which are like unto our Lords resurrected body. Depending on your semantics believers will be with the Lord in paradise or some other place but absolutely with the Lord. Eph 4:8 referring to Ps 68:18 tells us that Christ descended into the earth and gathered those saints in Abrahams bosom and took them on high with Him.
Now believers do not stand in judgment at the great white throne but they do appear before the judgment seat of Christ. Their works are tried by fire but they are not subjected to the fire. 2 Cor 5:10
You guys do not like Luke 16 but you ignore it at your own peril.
Then you ought to address Mat 27:52-53 seems there were some sleeping saints that woke up and wandered around following our Lords resurrection.
Of course none of this matters because you do not want to believe what God has written for your instruction. None will escape eternal destruction if they deny Christ. Carry your sin to the grave and sin will carry you to the lake of fire.
This whole idea is silly and has nothing of value to offer to those who follow it. Soul sleep and soul destruction has absolutely no up side potential.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yes the dead in Christ will rise first because they have six feet further to rise. Believers are resurrected first they are reunited with their bodies with the Lord in the air. They are receiving their glorified bodies which are like unto our Lords resurrected body. Depending on your semantics believers will be with the Lord in paradise or some other place but absolutely with the Lord. Eph 4:8 referring to Ps 68:18 tells us that Christ descended into the earth and gathered those saints in Abrahams bosom and took them on high with Him.
Now believers do not stand in judgment at the great white throne but they do appear before the judgment seat of Christ. Their works are tried by fire but they are not subjected to the fire. 2 Cor 5:10
You guys do not like Luke 16 but you ignore it at your own peril.
Then you ought to address Mat 27:52-53 seems there were some sleeping saints that woke up and wandered around following our Lords resurrection.
Of course none of this matters because you do not want to believe what God has written for your instruction. None will escape eternal destruction if they deny Christ. Carry your sin to the grave and sin will carry you to the lake of fire.
This whole idea is silly and has nothing of value to offer to those who follow it. Soul sleep and soul destruction has absolutely no up side potential.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
P
Jesus said to the man on cross today you will be with me in paradise. the mans body decayed in the grave but his spirit was in paradise that day. Jesus is in heaven, his spirit (his fathers spirit,as they are one) left him at the cross to go to heaven, his body went to the grave but the grave could not hold him . where is Jesus, paradise or heaven or are the 2 the same thing. keep to the scripture.
You wrote the dead rise first because they got 6 more feet further to rise??? Wow, I find it hard to believe that someone could be so deluded as to say and believe such a lie.
As we near the end of the age. 2 things will be apparent:
Those who keep the Commandments of God will NOT believe the dead are alive.
Those who do NOT keep the Commandments of God will believe the dead are alive.
Which group do you belong to? You obviously beleive the dead are alive. have you also dismissed
One of the oldest jokes in the church. No really Paul was comforting the believers in Thessalonica who were concerned that the saints who had died would miss the taking up of the church when the Lord returned in the clouds. Some deceiver was in their midst stirring up strife so the apostle was correcting error and giving comfort.
One thing for certain will be evident per scripture. 2 Tim 3:13 Evil men and seducers will wax worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.
You want to keep the commandments? Do you not hear the law? Gal 4:21 You cannot keep the law. If you offend the law in one point you offend all of the law. You count as not value the blood of Christ and the grace of God. Gal 3:21 if there had been a law given which could have given life verily righteousness should have been by the law. Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God for if righteousness come by the law then Christ is dead in vain.
As for me and my house we will follow the Lord.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You want to keep the commandments? Do you not hear the law? Gal 4:21 You cannot keep the law. If you offend the law in one point you offend all of the law. You count as not value the blood of Christ and the grace of God. Gal 3:21 if there had been a law given which could have given life verily righteousness should have been by the law. Gal 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God for if righteousness come by the law then Christ is dead in vain.
As for me and my house we will follow the Lord.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Circumcision availeth nothing. Christ did not command believers to observe the Sabbath. You cannot love Christ until you know Christ as your Saviour. Herein is love not that we loved God but that He loved us and gave Him Son to be the propitiation of sin for us. Christ died for us while we were yet sinners.
Time for you to stop treading underfoot the blood of Christ. Heb 10:29
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Time for you to stop treading underfoot the blood of Christ. Heb 10:29
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Luke 16:22-26 [SUP]22 [/SUP]And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; [SUP]23 [/SUP]And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. [SUP]25 [/SUP]But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. [SUP]26 [/SUP]And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Although this is a parable, it is a factual one, for God cannot lie. When Jesus spoke about Abraham, he was telling the truth. Paradise, as we know it is this place. Is prepared for the righteous before the rapture, just as Hell is prepared for the wicked before the lake of fire.
Although this is a parable, it is a factual one, for God cannot lie. When Jesus spoke about Abraham, he was telling the truth. Paradise, as we know it is this place. Is prepared for the righteous before the rapture, just as Hell is prepared for the wicked before the lake of fire.
I find it strange that I clearly see that Old Law exactly as Paul said to be nailed to the cross with Christ and am able to be found in God's church every day keeping the Sabbath but you who advocate only one day a week should be asking that question.
LOL.
Amusing indeed.
But I also appreciate that you read but not fully understand scriptures as this one: Colossians 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.."
Nor do you understand this one: Ephesians 2:15-16 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.."
I will tell you exactly why you do not understand it.
Whether realized or unrealized to yourself, you are thinking that the enmity of the law was merely that it was not applied to the two peoples equally. But that is not true, as we see here: Romans 3:19-20 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
So then your premise is wrong that the law did not apply equally to all and if you think a Gentile did not have the same offer to him to be able to keep God's Law Covenant and live, then you deny that God told Israel to invite foreigners to become proselytes.
So, what does that leave us with? It leaves us with God suspending the judgement upon the world by that law that we might judge ourselves by it instead of others: 1 Corinthians 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."
We now share that word to others and based upon whether they accept or reject that word they judge themselves as being unwilling to hear God's word, while blaming us and claiming it is we that are judging them: Acts 13:46 "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."
It is now about more than just revealing sin. Sin can be forgiven but haughtiness which refuses to listen to God and cease sinning will not be forgiven. Joshua 24:19 "And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins."
Therefore now our ministry is both about salvation and about delivering God's judgment to the people. And the focus of that judgment by means of God's word is to uncover all the secrets of haughtiness in men that this haughtiness being revealed, Christ will take aim at to destroy it out of the earth.
But the Old Law Covenant was abolished because it aimed at condemning man for sin alone.
LOL.
Amusing indeed.But I also appreciate that you read but not fully understand scriptures as this one: Colossians 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross.."
Nor do you understand this one: Ephesians 2:15-16 "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby.."
I will tell you exactly why you do not understand it.
Whether realized or unrealized to yourself, you are thinking that the enmity of the law was merely that it was not applied to the two peoples equally. But that is not true, as we see here: Romans 3:19-20 "Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
So then your premise is wrong that the law did not apply equally to all and if you think a Gentile did not have the same offer to him to be able to keep God's Law Covenant and live, then you deny that God told Israel to invite foreigners to become proselytes.
So, what does that leave us with? It leaves us with God suspending the judgement upon the world by that law that we might judge ourselves by it instead of others: 1 Corinthians 11:31 "For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged."
We now share that word to others and based upon whether they accept or reject that word they judge themselves as being unwilling to hear God's word, while blaming us and claiming it is we that are judging them: Acts 13:46 "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles."
It is now about more than just revealing sin. Sin can be forgiven but haughtiness which refuses to listen to God and cease sinning will not be forgiven. Joshua 24:19 "And Joshua said unto the people, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins."
Therefore now our ministry is both about salvation and about delivering God's judgment to the people. And the focus of that judgment by means of God's word is to uncover all the secrets of haughtiness in men that this haughtiness being revealed, Christ will take aim at to destroy it out of the earth.
But the Old Law Covenant was abolished because it aimed at condemning man for sin alone.
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