I have never said "all."
I have said that the DOCTRINE being promoted in the vast majority of church congregations is FALSE.
This has been clearly evidenced to me by my dialogue with multitudes of pastors who practically all believe that salvation is purely forensic and that one can actively engage in rebellion whilst remaining justified.
Of course they won't put it that way as that is just too obvious a deception. What they will say is that "you shouldn't sin" but we all do ala 1Joh 1:8. When I ask them about child molestation or murder in that "does such a sin have to cease BEFORE God grants forgiveness" they either shutdown and avoid answering the question or they say "no it does not have to stop." They truly believe that sin is rooted in the birth nature and not the choice, thus it takes an act of God (either prevenient grace or irresistible grace) to offset the inability from birth. Hence repentance is not the forsaking of rebellion, nor is repentance connected with the crucifixion of the flesh.
They teach that the cessation of rebellion to God and the crucifixion of the flesh is a GRADUAL PROCESS. It is what they teach, I have an email box full of exchanges with these people.
I have only about 4 or 5 exceptions and only about 3 of these clearly stated the sin must stop (i remember 2 specifically but I think there was 1 other). I didn't engage deeply will all these exception so there may be some muddy water there too.
Thus out of more than 200 inquiries (1000's if you count others who have sent out similar emails) to various pastors and ministries I found that pretty much 99% all base salvation on the notion of an abstract legal exchange (Penal Substitution) and it is within this framework they present the Gospel.
This is why if you go in practically any church building on Sunday (no matter the denomination) they preach MORAL LESSONS but do not preach HEART PURITY. They do not warn the people that those who name the name of Christ MUST depart from iniquity. They preach a lukewarm double-minded message which "sounds" true for it bears the language of the Bible but its really just a perversion of Paul's teaching which is in complete contradiction with the teachings of Jesus Christ.
The cross has been perverted into a judicial legal exchange whereby one is FORENSICALLY justified whilst one remains inwardly wicked walking in the lusts of the flesh.
The aspect of "dying with Christ" whereby we share in his sufferings and thus cease walking in the lusts of the flesh has been totally ripped out of the Gospel. These deceivers simply do not understand that the blood of Christ purges the conscience of sin and that by yielding ourselves to God our hearts are made PURE.
A pure heart does not work iniquity.
I do not say one cannot some to an authentic salvation experience in the system. I say it is highly unlikely and if such a thing does happen it happens in spite of the false message being preached.
Test it for your self. Pick a small town in the USA. Google all the churches. Then email each pastor and ask them if a child molester has to stop molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them. You'll be shocked at the answers you will receive.
I have said that the DOCTRINE being promoted in the vast majority of church congregations is FALSE.
This has been clearly evidenced to me by my dialogue with multitudes of pastors who practically all believe that salvation is purely forensic and that one can actively engage in rebellion whilst remaining justified.
Of course they won't put it that way as that is just too obvious a deception. What they will say is that "you shouldn't sin" but we all do ala 1Joh 1:8. When I ask them about child molestation or murder in that "does such a sin have to cease BEFORE God grants forgiveness" they either shutdown and avoid answering the question or they say "no it does not have to stop." They truly believe that sin is rooted in the birth nature and not the choice, thus it takes an act of God (either prevenient grace or irresistible grace) to offset the inability from birth. Hence repentance is not the forsaking of rebellion, nor is repentance connected with the crucifixion of the flesh.
They teach that the cessation of rebellion to God and the crucifixion of the flesh is a GRADUAL PROCESS. It is what they teach, I have an email box full of exchanges with these people.
I have only about 4 or 5 exceptions and only about 3 of these clearly stated the sin must stop (i remember 2 specifically but I think there was 1 other). I didn't engage deeply will all these exception so there may be some muddy water there too.
Thus out of more than 200 inquiries (1000's if you count others who have sent out similar emails) to various pastors and ministries I found that pretty much 99% all base salvation on the notion of an abstract legal exchange (Penal Substitution) and it is within this framework they present the Gospel.
This is why if you go in practically any church building on Sunday (no matter the denomination) they preach MORAL LESSONS but do not preach HEART PURITY. They do not warn the people that those who name the name of Christ MUST depart from iniquity. They preach a lukewarm double-minded message which "sounds" true for it bears the language of the Bible but its really just a perversion of Paul's teaching which is in complete contradiction with the teachings of Jesus Christ.
The cross has been perverted into a judicial legal exchange whereby one is FORENSICALLY justified whilst one remains inwardly wicked walking in the lusts of the flesh.
The aspect of "dying with Christ" whereby we share in his sufferings and thus cease walking in the lusts of the flesh has been totally ripped out of the Gospel. These deceivers simply do not understand that the blood of Christ purges the conscience of sin and that by yielding ourselves to God our hearts are made PURE.
A pure heart does not work iniquity.
I do not say one cannot some to an authentic salvation experience in the system. I say it is highly unlikely and if such a thing does happen it happens in spite of the false message being preached.
Test it for your self. Pick a small town in the USA. Google all the churches. Then email each pastor and ask them if a child molester has to stop molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them. You'll be shocked at the answers you will receive.
Skinski,
Would you mind answering this for me because I think I am picking up something. Is the problem with this penal substitution itself or is it the way it's being taught? See the thing is if it is being taught correctly it should always point to what it cost Jesus to save us. It should always point to the denial,the fact He was left,the lies,the kangaroo court,the beatings that turned His body into hamburger,the fact that His hair and beard were pulled out by their roots,then to add insult to injury to have to carry His own cross,which He would be tied to and then have spikes driven into His wrists and feet. Left almost naked,on a hill between two thieves,to be insulted and then to hang there for six hours in serve pain.
This needs to be part of it,if this is left out it,it makes a mockery of what He went through. If this is not taught it is no wonder that it becomes cheap and shallow. This is what it COST JESUS TO SAVE US,it can NOT be left out.
I sometimes wonder if it would change things if every church would show the Passion of the Christ to get through our thick skulls just what it did cost Him. And it was far from a pretty picture. That should break our heart and humble us, and it should touch us to know that He does love us that much that He was WILLING to do it.