gal 3:10-12 to those who keep looking law ward.

[Skinski7]

How much obedience would be considered purity? How much disobedience would be considered impure? what is the standard.

Those who have faith WILL WORK. that is what James said. Those who do not have faith will not.

That is hugely different from saying one can lose salvation based on not being good enough!

Faith is a true trust. True trust by its nature will CAUSE GOOD WORKS.

Obedience is a stumbling block isn't it?

How much obedience?

Jesus answered the question when He stated we are to love God with ALL our heart, mind and soul.

It is godly sorrow that works repentance unto salvation. A true brokenness of a sinner before God is where the mind is changed. Thus instead of one walking after their own lusts in self-willed rebellion they instead choose to submit their will to God. Thus in this state we may not know much but the axe has been laid to the root of iniquity within the heart and the rebellion to God has been purged. It is in this state that God raises us up to newness of life, regenerating our spirit with His Spirit bringing us back to life whereby the veil falls and we begin to see.

It has nothing to do with being obedient for a certain period of time or doing a certain amount of works. It has everything to do with a state of the heart. The state of the heart is not viewed in light of deeds (hence salvation is not of works) but rather in how it is open to yielding to the light of God.

Genuine faith is a work (1The 1:3) for it is simply the active dynamic by which we yield to God having a SINGLE EYE fixated on Christ. Thus there is no serving two masters within the confines of genuine saving faith.

 

[john832]

So you're not "saved" by keeping EVERY ASPECT of the law. You just do ? You please God ALWAYS and EVERYTIME in EVERY thought, word and deed ?? I don't. I try to and want to. But I sometimes miss the mark.

And this is where grace comes in. We receive grace, the unearned, unmerited forgiveness of sin, when we truly repent. Now those who just wilfully continue without trying to change have a different outcome...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

But to those who strive to overcome...

1Co 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain.
1Co 9:25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
1Co 9:26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
1Co 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Have a great High Priest...

Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

 

[Skinski7]

Heart purity is the issue and it is denied by so many.

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Galatians 3:13 KJV
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Romans 6:23 KJV
(23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Christ has freed us from the penalty of sin. Christ also has freed us from the power of sin

Romans 6:14 KJV
(14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

So being under grace means we are free from the power of sin.

yes, we are free from the power of sin. But do not try to make a religious term for the word grace, Grace means unmerited anything. Being free from the power of sin, But not free from ever commuting sin again, is the reason we are still under grace.

It is not grace which makes us free. it is the new birth.

 

[Laodicea]

Galatians 3:13 KJV
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Romans 6:23 KJV
(23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Christ has freed us from the penalty of sin. Christ also has freed us from the power of sin

Romans 6:14 KJV
(14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

So being under grace means we are free from the power of sin.

So then because Christ sets us free from both the penalty of sin and the power of sin then what would our walk with Christ be like?
Romans 6:15-16 KJV
(15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

By surrender to Christ we become servants of obedience unto righteousness. That is the words in this text.

 

[Skinski7]

yes, we are free from the power of sin. But do not try to make a religious term for the word grace, Grace means unmerited anything. Being free from the power of sin, But not free from ever commuting sin again, is the reason we are still under grace.

It is not grace which makes us free. it is the new birth.

It is the new birth which allows one to walk in victory.

Paul taught that it via obedience from the heart that one was set free.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Thus we are set free from the law of sin and death via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Whereby righteousness is fulfilled IN US.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


It is within the context of the above that John would write this...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Those who abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ and thus walk after the Spirit have departed from iniquity and thus will not produce unrighteousness from a defiled heart. They may err and sin not unto death (all unrighteousness is sin) yet such sin is not rooted in rebellion to God. Hence those born of God do not sin (unto death) but rather keep themselves for they are servants of righteousness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Obedience is a stumbling block isn't it?

How is it a stumbling block? it is not a stumbling block for anything or anyone. Well excuse me, it is a stumbling block. For the jews.. and the religious so called christians who are like them. Who think since they are so righteous, they no longer need grace, thus no longer, or do not need christ.

for those who believe in eternal salvation, obedience is not a stumbling block, it is a goal.. and a lifestyle as we grow in Christ.

How much obedience?

Jesus answered the question when He stated we are to love God with ALL our heart, mind and soul.

This does not answer the question.

1. jesus was not telling us how to be saved, he was telling us how to be free of sin.. anything which falls short of this, under any circumstance, is sin.. The problem is, the sinless people do not understand what this means, if they did, They would never preach sinlessness. They would truly understand, we can not obey this every second of ever minute of every day. it is impossible..

unfortunately for many, it will take them standing before christ to realise this fact. when they finally see all the sin they claimed they did not do!

2. jesus did not say in this comment how little or how much sin will cause us to be obedient or not obedient, why are you refusing to answer the question? Your doctrine demands an answer,,

It is godly sorrow that works repentance unto salvation. A true brokenness of a sinner before God is where the mind is changed. Thus instead of one walking after their own lusts in self-willed rebellion they instead choose to submit their will to God. Thus in this state we may not know much but the axe has been laid to the root of iniquity within the heart and the rebellion to God has been purged. It is in this state that God raises us up to newness of life, regenerating our spirit with His Spirit bringing us back to life whereby the veil falls and we begin to see.

This is law. This is not grace,

yes Godly sorrow leads to repentnace which leads to salvation. Which leads to a changed life. But you can;t possibly know ever sin you commit the moment you are born again, it takes a time of maturinmg and studying to understand these things.. Your making salvation dependant on how well one does.. This is not grace, this is law.. And is rejected by God!

It has nothing to do with being obedient for a certain period of time or doing a certain amount of works. It has everything to do with a state of the heart. The state of the heart is not viewed in light of deeds (hence salvation is not of works) but rather in how it is open to yielding to the light of God.

Genuine faith is a work (1The 1:3) for it is simply the active dynamic by which we yield to God having a SINGLE EYE fixated on Christ. Thus there is no serving two masters within the confines of genuine saving faith.

you can't have it both ways, If obedience is required as you say, there has to be a limit.

Actually there is.. but evidently you do not know what that is..

 

[Skinski7]

So then because Christ sets us free from both the penalty of sin and the power of sin then what would our walk with Christ be like?
Romans 6:15-16 KJV
(15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

By surrender to Christ we become servants of obedience unto righteousness. That is the words in this text.

Amen.

We shift from the service of one master to another.

Serving sin --------------> Serving Righteousness
Death ---------------> Life
Satan ----------------> Jesus Christ
Walking in the flesh ----------> Walking according to the Spirit.
Rebellion to God -------------> Yielding to God.

 

[Grandpa]

Galatians 3:13 KJV
(13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Romans 6:23 KJV
(23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Christ has freed us from the penalty of sin. Christ also has freed us from the power of sin

Romans 6:14 KJV
(14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

So being under grace means we are free from the power of sin.

You've almost connected all the dots... Let me help.

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

They may err and sin not unto death (all unrighteousness is sin) yet such sin is not rooted in rebellion to God. Hence those born of God do not sin (unto death) but rather keep themselves for they are servants of righteousness.

This is one of your great fallacies. ALL sin, by definition, is rebellion against GOD. ALL sin makes one worthy of death. Of course when one indulges in an idolatry of imagined obedience, it is necessary to selectively choose which sins are acceptable, and which ones aren't.

 

[Laodicea]

You've almost connected all the dots... Let me help.

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1 Corinthians 15:57 KJV
(57) But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is the next text which you left out. What victory do we get through Jesus?

 

[john832]

Obedience is a stumbling block isn't it?

How much obedience?

OK let's reverse this, how little obedience is acceptable? Is serial killing OK? When is obedience to the sixth Commandment enough and when do we not have to obey it? When is murder EVER acceptable? How about a serial killer who only kills now and then? This OK?

Jesus answered the question when He stated we are to love God with ALL our heart, mind and soul.

1Jn 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
1Jn 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

It is godly sorrow that works repentance unto salvation. A true brokenness of a sinner before God is where the mind is changed. Thus instead of one walking after their own lusts in self-willed rebellion they instead choose to submit their will to God. Thus in this state we may not know much but the axe has been laid to the root of iniquity within the heart and the rebellion to God has been purged. It is in this state that God raises us up to newness of life, regenerating our spirit with His Spirit bringing us back to life whereby the veil falls and we begin to see.

It has nothing to do with being obedient for a certain period of time or doing a certain amount of works. It has everything to do with a state of the heart. The state of the heart is not viewed in light of deeds (hence salvation is not of works) but rather in how it is open to yielding to the light of God.

Boy that opens up Pandora's box, what type of behavior is OK then? With all the different opinions on just this board, who determines what love is and who does not determine it? What is right and wrong? Or do they not exist anymore?

Genuine faith is a work (1The 1:3) for it is simply the active dynamic by which we yield to God having a SINGLE EYE fixated on Christ. Thus there is no serving two masters within the confines of genuine saving faith.

Genuine faith is a gift from God...

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

 

[notuptome]

This is one of your great fallacies. ALL sin, by definition, is rebellion against GOD. ALL sin makes one worthy of death. Of course when one indulges in an idolatry of imagined obedience, it is necessary to selectively choose which sins are acceptable, and which ones aren't.

The blood of Christ atones fully and eternally for sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus. Who shall lay anything to the charge of Gods elect? Shall God that justifieth? Romans 8:1,33-39
Apparently your salvation experience differs from what God has prescribed.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[eternally-gratefull]

It is the new birth which allows one to walk in victory.

Who said it was not? Actually this is very thing I said. lets reread it why don't we.

It is not grace which makes us free. it is the new birth.

Paul taught that it via obedience from the heart that one was set free.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

Paul is talking about a doctrine, singular. do you even understand what doctrine he is talking about?? if you did, you again would understand where I am coming from.

Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Thus we are set free from the law of sin and death via abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Whereby righteousness is fulfilled IN US.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


It is within the context of the above that John would write this...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Those who abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ and thus walk after the Spirit have departed from iniquity and thus will not produce unrighteousness from a defiled heart. They may err and sin not unto death (all unrighteousness is sin) yet such sin is not rooted in rebellion to God. Hence those born of God do not sin (unto death) but rather keep themselves for they are servants of righteousness.

These passages do not teach sinless perfection. They teach that a person who is born again will have a changed life and no longer live as he did before.. Stop trying to think your perfect. You are only fooling yourself!

 

[Skinski7]

Skinski in Red.

How is it a stumbling block? it is not a stumbling block for anything or anyone. Well excuse me, it is a stumbling block. For the jews.. and the religious so called christians who are like them. Who think since they are so righteous, they no longer need grace, thus no longer, or do not need christ.

The law was a stumbling block for the Jews because they saw righteousness in adherence to OUTWARD COMMANDS instead of adherence to the SPIRIT OF GOD. They served the shadow instead of the source. That is the stumbling block. They could not perceive that Jesus Christ was a fulfillment of the law for Jesus Christ walked in PURE LOVE.

This fallacy of "no longer needing grace" or "no longer need Christ" is YOUR FALLACY. We ALWAYS need Jesus Christ because Jesus Christ is the light of the world which lighteth all men (Joh 1:9). We always need grace for it is grace which teaches us hot to go (Tit 2:11-12).

A very important of aspect of Charis (Grace) is that it is the "divine influence on the heart" which is something we need perpetually. We must be PLUGGED INTO GOD so to speak, hence apart from Christ we can do nothing (Joh 15:4-5).

So why the resistance to what I wrote? Are you saying you can be in disobedience to God and be saved at the very same time? Is that what you are saying?

Are you saying that one can have a defiled heart and be in a justified state before God? Is that what you are saying?

Is the heart if a genuine Christian pure or not?

for those who believe in eternal salvation, obedience is not a stumbling block, it is a goal.. and a lifestyle as we grow in Christ.

It is a goal? When? You disobey now but hope to obey later? Is that what you believe?

What about where the scripture teaches that "obedience to the truth by the spirit" produces "heart purity." What does that scripture mean to you?

You are saved APART from being made pure? Is that what you believe?

What is salvation then? A mere cloak for an ongoing state of defilement? Is that what you believe?

If salvation is but a mere cloak from an ongoing state of filthiness then is not grace a license to keep on sinning? It would have to be. If salvation is forensically cloaked state of filthiness then the cloak is an ongoing license to sin and not surely die is it not?

This does not answer the question.

1. jesus was not telling us how to be saved, he was telling us how to be free of sin.. anything which falls short of this, under any circumstance, is sin.. The problem is, the sinless people do not understand what this means, if they did, They would never preach sinlessness. They would truly understand, we can not obey this every second of ever minute of every day. it is impossible..

The issue is HEART PURITY. Do you ever speak of the heart being made pure? Or is that a foreign concept to your doctrine? The Bible clearly teaches heart purity.

Heart purity is not about never missing the mark, erring due to a misjudgment or setting a priority wrong. No, heart purity is about doing what is right from the heart ALL THE TIME. It appears to me that your doctrine is an outright denial of heart purity being possible in a Christian.

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Is love out of a pure heart, a good conscience and faith unfeigned some lofty goal which is not really possible for a Christian? Is that what you believe. Is Paul just toying with words here?

Is a Christian to remain filthy within for the rest of their lives completely unable to submit themselves to the will of God? Rebellion is just something that must take place from time to time? Is that what you believe?

unfortunately for many, it will take them standing before christ to realise this fact. when they finally see all the sin they claimed they did not do!

2. jesus did not say in this comment how little or how much sin will cause us to be obedient or not obedient, why are you refusing to answer the question? Your doctrine demands an answer,,

You clearly cannot grasp my answer and thus to you it is no answer.

This is law. This is not grace,

yes Godly sorrow leads to repentnace which leads to salvation. Which leads to a changed life. But you can;t possibly know ever sin you commit the moment you are born again, it takes a time of maturinmg and studying to understand these things

The issue is not about "knowing every sin" it is about "forsaking rebellion to God once and for all." Yes one may be in error in some way after this but such unrighteousness is not rooted in rebellion. Hence John made the distinction between "sin unto death" and "sin not unto death" (1Joh 5:16-17). Paul contrasted "sin unto death" with "obedience unto righteousness" (Rom 6:16). A Christian who has truly repented has forsaken their rebellion to God, they are like the prodigal son who forsakes the pig pen in order to return to the Father. There is a WILLINGNESS to yield.

.. Your making salvation dependant on how well one does.. This is not grace, this is law.. And is rejected by God!

No. I stating matter of factly that salvation is dependent on TRULY yielding to God with an HONEST heart. There is no rebellion to God in salvation for Jesus Christ came to redeem us from ALL INIQUITY and to PURIFY a peculiar people zealous of good works.

Not only that but God is the AUTHOR of the salvation of those who OBEY HIM. The Bible does not teach that God is the author of the obedience of those whom are saved. One cannot be in rebellion to God and saved at the same time.

If one is in rebellion to God it means they are in the service of sin and unrighteousness. Thus Satan is their master. God is calling those who serve Satan to forsake that master and serve Christ instead.

One cannot serve both Satan and God.



you can't have it both ways, If obedience is required as you say, there has to be a limit.

Actually there is.. but evidently you do not know what that is..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

This is one of your great fallacies. ALL sin, by definition, is rebellion against GOD. ALL sin makes one worthy of death. Of course when one indulges in an idolatry of imagined obedience, it is necessary to selectively choose which sins are acceptable, and which ones aren't.

thats there problem. they excuse their own sin, while condemning others..

Been happening since the begining of time. I venture it will happen until Christ returns, when no one will have an excuse anymore!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Skinski in Red.

I am not going to take my time to respond to something I can not quote. Either remove the quotes. or show some courtesy by separating your answers by quotes..

Lazy responses will not get an answer

 

[Skinski7]

Who said it was not? Actually this is very thing I said. lets reread it why don't we.

Paul taught that it via obedience from the heart that one was set free.

Paul is talking about a doctrine, singular. do you even understand what doctrine he is talking about?? if you did, you again would understand where I am coming from.

The text is plain. Obedience from the heart to the doctrine of Jesus Christ. The doctrine of Jesus Christ is the doctrine according to godliness. Those who have obeyed from the heart have laid aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and received with meekness the implanted word within by which their souls are saved. It is the life of Christ within, through His Spirit, that we are saved from the corruption that is in the world through lust. We are redeemed from all iniquity and made pure IN Him.

Not forensically or positionally but in ACTUALITY. Thus we can let out light shine because it is a real manifest light. With our eyes singly fixated on Jesus Christ out whole bodies are full of light whereby we walk as children of the light. Born from above by the will of God.


These passages do not teach sinless perfection. They teach that a person who is born again will have a changed life and no longer live as he did before.. Stop trying to think your perfect. You are only fooling yourself!

I don't teach sinless perfection either. That is a strawman concoction wrought in the minds of those who are in denial of heart purity being wrought in those who come to Christ.

Tell me what is "sinless perfection"? Is that never doing wrong, even ignorantly? Is that what it means?

The issue is REBELLION versus SUBMISSION.

The issue is not never missing the mark. One can miss the mark yet remain in full submission to God. Correction is needed when this occurs and those in submission YIELD to the correction and thus GROW in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

 

[Grandpa]

Everybody has different faith. That is what I am seeing.

I see people who try so hard to be obedient in the flesh to our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ I suppose it must make them upset when someone comes and tells them they're doing it wrong.

And equally when someone is saved by the Lord they know it wasn't because of their work (except skinski and a few others...) at being obedient to the Law but it was His Grace and His Power, so it is just as upsetting when people say you must go back to the Law. You are in effect telling these people to Leave Christ and trust their own flesh. That's not gonna float.

All this is, every time and every debate, is a question of flesh vs. spirit. Which one are you relying on and which one are you trusting?

If you are telling people to obey the law by their flesh you are relying on the flesh. period.
If you are telling people to abide in Christ and trust that He will grow the fruit, that would be the spirit speaking.

We can't cause ourselves to be spiritual by our own will. We can't cause ourselves to grow this fruit by the works of our flesh. Is this difficult because the flesh is so prideful and stubborn???


I was hoping Skinski was going to teach John832 about grace. I would have really gotten a kick out of that... Maybe I'll pray about it, lol. All I know for sure is that it would have been great big walls of text...

 

[Grandpa]

I don't teach sinless perfection either. That is a strawman concoction wrought in the minds of those who are in denial of heart purity being wrought in those who come to Christ.

Tell me what is "sinless perfection"? Is that never doing wrong, even ignorantly? Is that what it means?

The issue is REBELLION versus SUBMISSION.

The issue is not never missing the mark. One can miss the mark yet remain in full submission to God. Correction is needed when this occurs and those in submission YIELD to the correction and thus GROW in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

No one really denies that heart purity happens to those who come to Christ. Most of us deny that it is our works that caused it.