gal 3:10-12 to those who keep looking law ward.

[haz]

It's interesting to see how terms like love/grace/faith are used by the legalists as a facade to hide their desire to be under the law for righteousness by works. Whenever one debates with such legalists, ultimately it is revealed that the law is the measuring stick they use to determine righteousness/salvation.

2Cor 11:3 warns of such deceit.
But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

 

[Wall]

lol. Your joking right? who is claiming we should keep on living as before..

You have it backwards.. your trying to earn salvation by doing it. we are doing it because we have been given salvation..

get it right, and you will fully understand grace.

Revelation 22:14-21 (KJV)
[SUP]14[/SUP]Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Verse 21. Is that the grace you say we (those who obey) don't understand? Read verse 14. See... we do understand

No joke

 

[Wall]

It's interesting to see how terms like love/grace/faith are used by the legalists as a facade to hide their desire to be under the law for righteousness by works. Whenever one debates with such legalists, ultimately it is revealed that the law is the measuring stick they use to determine righteousness/salvation.

So Haz, your telling me that someday you might stand before the Lord and say....save me Lord, im an illegalist, I did nothing you commanded me to do!

Good luck with that

 

[Wall]

People deceive themselves into thinking that they are not under the judgment of the law of Moses, but are required to keep the 10 commandments. IMO, that is either because their faith is weak, or they have no faith at all. We are either justified by faith, or we are justified by the 10 commandments. You can't have it both ways; there is no middle ground. One is life; the other is death. Mixing the two is leaven that corrupts one's whole walk.

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] WHEREFORE THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This scripture says what it says. Before faith came to each and everyone of us, we are under the law (10 commandments). Then the scripture goes on to say the same thing again (in case you missed it the 1st time). We are under the law (our schoolmaster) UNTIL we are justified by faith. Faith is not something that you mysteriously attain attain at birth. So, according to this scripture you are kept under the law of the 10 commandments (the schoolmaster) until you are justified by faith in Christ. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

Just because we have attained faith through the Word are we now to “do away” with Gods 10 commandments? GOD FORBID!

 

[zone]

GALATIANS 3 [23] But BEFORE FAITH CAME, WE WERE KEPT UNDER THE LAW, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] WHEREFORE THE LAW WAS OUR SCHOOLMASTER TO BRING US UNTO CHRIST, THAT WE MIGHT BE JUSTIFIED BY FAITH. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. [26] For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. [27] For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. [28] There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. [29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This scripture says what it says. Before faith came to each and everyone of us, we are under the law (10 commandments). Then the scripture goes on to say the same thing again (in case you missed it the 1st time). We are under the law (our schoolmaster) UNTIL we are justified by faith. Faith is not something that you mysteriously attain attain at birth. So, according to this scripture you are kept under the law of the 10 commandments (the schoolmaster) until you are justified by faith in Christ. After we have been brought to faith in Christ, do we then make void the law or are we to still be keeping Gods law?

ROMANS 3 [30] Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. [31] DO WE THEN MAKE VOID THE LAW THROUGH FAITH? GOD FORBID: yea, we establish the law.

Just because we have attained faith through the Word are we now to “do away” with Gods 10 commandments? GOD FORBID!

there are more than 1000 imperatives, directives and commands in the New Testament alone.
do you know any of them?

 

[crossnote]

this is your first problem. There are MANY more then ten commandments.

Also. if we could even obey the ten, we would no longer have the need for Christ. Grace would cease to be needed, and we could by on works, and earn salvation.

evidently you believe this

Most count about 613. It's truly a full time job!!!

 

[tribesman]

Most count about 613. It's truly a full time job!!!

613 is a low count.

 

[crossnote]

The issue is not that "doing" somehow EARNS salvation. Salvation is simply wrought via the dynamic of "working together with God."

Doing is not a result of salvation. Good fruit is a result of salvation. Doing is a result of godly sorrow working a genuine change of mind unto salvation.

There must be doing BEFORE salvation can take place.

Noah DID by building the Ark BEFORE the flood came.

The prodigal son DID by forsaking the pig pen in order to seek out his father BEFORE he was restored.

This is not saying that one "saves themselves." NO!. It is simply stating that DOING is a condition mandated by God that must be present for God to author the salvation of someone. God is not the author the salvation of those who remain disobedient because they are in rejection of the implanted word which would save their souls.

A great example of Pelagian at work in red. This puts our 'doing' as the basis of salvation. If you don't 'do' you won't get saved.

 

[RedTent]

I just came from a bible class where everyone but me put the law on the back burner of life, saying that it was only God in our hearts that was important. We talked afterwards about why I thought so differently. It came to this. Their bible study was mostly New Testament, they knew a spattering of the Old, but didn't understand a lot of it and thought most didn't apply to gentiles.

I just did a study several years long of Old Testament, based on that scripture was of God and although it was completed and fulfilled in the New Testament, God never disagreed with God. If we saw it that way it was up to us to dig until we found what God was saying. With the things the New Testament and the Old says about law, all agreeing with each other and all saying the same thing except for the changes that Christ living with us and fulfilling His work, it took me months of digging and study to make it all come together, because each statement is truth.

With this in mind, the law, works, faith, and grace falls into place, with each being truth.

 

[Abiding]

I just came from a bible class where everyone but me put the law on the back burner of life, saying that it was only God in our hearts that was important. We talked afterwards about why I thought so differently. It came to this. Their bible study was mostly New Testament, they knew a spattering of the Old, but didn't understand a lot of it and thought most didn't apply to gentiles.

I just did a study several years long of Old Testament, based on that scripture was of God and although it was completed and fulfilled in the New Testament, God never disagreed with God. If we saw it that way it was up to us to dig until we found what God was saying. With the things the New Testament and the Old says about law, all agreeing with each other and all saying the same thing except for the changes that Christ living with us and fulfilling His work, it took me months of digging and study to make it all come together, because each statement is truth.

With this in mind, the law, works, faith, and grace falls into place, with each being truth.

You really have a hobby, as if noone reads the OT. Ive never met a believer that didnt read the OT.
You must live in a different world. You must think people really need to keep hearing this. I cant tell
if your bragging or just figuring things out and projecting.

 

[Abiding]

The bible is made up of 66 books..ok?

 

[Grandpa]

So let's cut to the chase, do you obey the seventh, sixth, eighth, tenth and ninth Commandments? OR do you do as you please because Christ fulfilled them?

No. The Law shows me my sin, every time, all the time.

I abide in Christ. I trust in Him.

I don't look back at the Law to obey it in my flesh. I know when I do that all I see is condemnation of my flesh. In Christ there is no condemnation.

In that way the Law was my tutor. It brought me to Christ. I realized I didn't really obey any of the commandments before I came to Him.

The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life was all I knew before I came to Him. But in my mind I was a pretty good commandment keeper... I was fooling myself. Or I should say I was being fooled. I had brought His Perfect Law down to a place where a prideful, lustful man could think he was "keeping" them. It reminds me of David's words "so foolish was I and ignorant, I was as a brute beast before thee".

The Lord saved me even though I wasn't a perfect commandment keeper. Is that biblical? I think it is. Look at the prayer of the Pharisee and the prayer of the Publican that the Lord Jesus tells us about. Which one was justified? (Luke 18)

 

[Abiding]

No. The Law shows me my sin, every time, all the time.

I abide in Christ. I trust in Him.

I don't look back at the Law to obey it in my flesh. I know when I do that all I see is condemnation of my flesh. In Christ there is no condemnation.

In that way the Law was my tutor. It brought me to Christ. I realized I didn't really obey any of the commandments before I came to Him.

The lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life was all I knew before I came to Him. But in my mind I was a pretty good commandment keeper... I was fooling myself. Or I should say I was being fooled. I had brought His Perfect Law down to a place where a prideful, lustful man could think he was "keeping" them. It reminds me of David's words "so foolish was I and ignorant, I was as a brute beast before thee".

The Lord saved me even though I wasn't a perfect commandment keeper. Is that biblical? I think it is. Look at the prayer of the Pharisee and the prayer of the Publican that the Lord Jesus tells us about. Which one was justified? (Luke 18)

amen

[h=3]Romans 9:30-33[/h]
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed

 

[crossnote]

As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh(keeping the law as a Christian) , they constrain you to be circumcised (brought to Sinai); only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ (their real motive). For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law (but hard for them to admit); but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh (it's a safer walk that way). But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, (what? I thought it was the law.) and I unto the world. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
(Gal 6:12-16)

my commentary was in red.
Now, a much better commentary.

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
(Gal 2:19-21)

 

[haz]

So Haz, your telling me that someday you might stand before the Lord and say....save me Lord, im an illegalist, I did nothing you commanded me to do!

Good luck with that

Hi Wall,

Believers obey God's command that we believe in Jesus.

But you disobey by remaining under the law for righteousness by works.

Below is a comment I made earlier which you may have missed.

Those who keep looking law ward have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Those who keep looking law ward have disobeyed God's command that we purge out the old leaven (doctrine of works of the law for righteousness, Matt 16:12).

Gal 5:7-9
You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven (doctrine of works of the law) leavens the whole lump.

1Cor 5:7
Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened.


Those who keep looking law ward are fornicating with Hagar, in spite of God's command that we flee fornication (1Thess 4:3, 1Cor 6:18). Believers are one spirit with the Lord (1Cor 6:17), hence we should not then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot (Hagar/works of the law), 1Cor 6:15.

Hagar is symbolic of the old covenant righteousness by works of the law.
Gal 4:21-25
Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children—

Those who keep looking law ward often distort the gospel by arguing that grace enables them to keep the law.
Note how Jude 4 describes such doctrines.
For certain men have crept in unnoticed, who long ago were marked out for this condemnation, ungodly men, who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Such turn God's grace into lasciviousness/lust for fornication with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law.

Grace and works of the law just cannot be mixed.
Rom 11:6
if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

God says we are to flee fornication with Hagar/works of the law for righteousness.
But, the doctrine you suggest seems to encourage fornication with Hagar.

 

[Laodicea]

People have to remember that there are 3 steps in salvation.
1. Justification-Christ frees us from the penalty of sin.
2. Sanctification-Christ frees us from the power of sin
3. Glorification-Christ frees us from the affects of sin.

Justification happens when a person gives their life to Christ.
Sanctification is a continual process that continues till Christ returns.
Glorification happens when Christ returns and He gives us a new body free from any affects of sin.

 

[crossnote]

People have to remember that there are 3 steps in salvation.
1. Justification-Christ frees us from the penalty of sin.
2. Sanctification-Christ frees us from the power of sin
3. Glorification-Christ frees us from the affects of sin.

Justification happens when a person gives their life to Christ.
Sanctification is a continual process that continues till Christ returns.
Glorification happens when Christ returns and He gives us a new body free from any affects of sin.

And the only role the law plays in the first two is to reveal our need of Christ as it continually reveals our sin and has NO role in glorification.

 

[psychomom]

1 Peter 1

13 Therefore, gird your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,

15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;

16 because it is written, “YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY.”

Therefore, gird your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.




Those words in red explain how we are to be holy.

If we do not have our faith fixed completely on the grace provided by God we have no hope of being obedient children.

It's all about what Jesus did, and does for us.

Our obedience to His will is merely our just and due service, and possible only through the grace of God which saved us, sanctifies us, and will one day glorify us.

 

[john832]

No. The Law shows me my sin, every time, all the time.

I abide in Christ. I trust in Him.

I don't look back at the Law to obey it in my flesh. I know when I do that all I see is condemnation of my flesh. In Christ there is no condemnation.

In that way the Law was my tutor. It brought me to Christ. I realized I didn't really obey any of the commandments before I came to Him.

So, do you obey any or all of the Commandments now?

 

[loveme1]

Peace and Love to you all.

Glory to the Almighty God and Yahshua the Messiah.