gal 3:10-12 to those who keep looking law ward.

[crossnote]

Crossnoted, where does it say this, if I may be so bold No, but, I'm being serious. Where?

God's image is not a reflection of the law, it's a reflection of something else

I meant 'His image is reflected in the Law'. Thanks for the correction.

 

[crossnote]

Anyway, I don't mean to interrupt your good conversation with wallwalker, crossnoted, it's just important that Christ is viewed as 'grace,' and, not as a 'reflection of the law,' as you put it. When we see God, we should see His grace , or, His Love . How else can we have faith? We can't have faith in the law ! We humans are contrarian, rebellious, in our real nature's of the law. The law is there so that we KNOW we need a Saviiour

Study out 2Cor chaps 3 and 4.
You see there law, grace, image,stone,heart,veil, open face, glory and the rest that pertains to this subject matter.

 

[Wall]

Flesh is inside us, ready to ACT at all times, Christian, non-Christian, doesn't matter, our flesh is ripe for doing wrong and Satan is right there to spoil all the fruit that we REALLY want to do with his lies

[SUP] [/SUP]O wretched man that I am!

 

[GreenNnice]

An example of true faith is trusting in Jesus and His Work alone to save.
An example of false faith is trusting in one's faith.
If you have further problems with what true faith is and is not, please consult Scripture as there are myriads of examples found therein even if the exact term may not be spelled out.

But, crossnoted, those words , 'true faith' are nowhere in Scripture. It's just faith, yes, trusting in His grace given to us through God's Son dying on the cross.

But, yes, of course, God gives us our faith, we have NO faith, 'faith' is not of ourselves, as Ephesians 2:8 speaks. God gives us all a 'measure of faith,' we are trusting in His faith, like Abraham trusted in His faith that He gave, but, yes, also, Abraham's faith God counted as righteousness . So, there is a possession of faith in there, too; But God gives us our faith and we are to use our faith.

Let's look at Jude's book

1Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and kept for Jesus Christ: 2May mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you. 3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

5Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. 6And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, 7just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
8Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. 9But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” 10But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. 11Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. 12These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; 13wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.
14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones, 15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.” 16These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.



17But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18that they were saying to you, “In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.” 19These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit. 20But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. 22And have mercy on some, who are doubting; 23save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.

Herewithin are words of possession of faith, that God GAVE to the saints, herewithin, too, is where Jude urges us to be building ourselves up on our most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, which is HOW we increase our faith.


We are to KEEP ourselves in the Love of God. Again, how this is done is by building up our faith, and, that is done by praying to the Spirit who convicts us, reaches out to us, teaches us what we are to know to do.

Now, does this all have to do with salvation ? Yes, it has to do with faith in Him, continuing to build our faith up in Him and keeping ourselves in the love of God's ways for our life. That does not come easy, it takes FAITH, constant faith, building up of our faith, as He leads us, crossnoted, the Lord leads

 

[GreenNnice]

Study out 2Cor chaps 3 and 4.
You see there law, grace, image,stone,heart,veil, open face, glory and the rest that pertains to this subject matter.

Exactly, NOW, you are getting it, crossnoted, we are to build OUR FAITH, see, it IS our faith, God gave us our faith to USE, as I just showed you in Jude, where it talks about 'building on the most holy faith,' this means to use our faith

God GROWS our faith, we MUST put our trust in Him, there is NO mention of grace here, except in 1 Cor. 3 where it says that Paul is a 'wise builder,' but that it is ONLY by the 'grace of God given him.'

Everything is by God, by His grace given, giving us gifts to use as Romans 12:6 states , whatever they may be to USE our gifts in 'proportion to our faith.' God gave us our measure of faith, we are just to use it as He wants us to, whether it's planting, watering etc. Then, God provides the growth and IF we want to put it in stock market terms, God makes what we do of VALUE, too, and, it IS going to be of value for His glory, for His kingdom, for bringing others to Christ.

 

[Wall]

Hey Jude


JUDE 1 [1]Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: [2] Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied. [3] Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of THE COMMON SALVATION, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was ONCE DELIVERED UNTO THE SAINTS. [4] For there are CERTAIN MEN CREPT IN unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. [5] I WILL THEREFORE PUT YOU IN REMEMBRANCE, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

They were brought out of Egypt and destroyed due to unbelief. Keep in mind the wording (put you in rememberence). Remember the... Yeah the 4th commandment of GOD

EZEK.20 [10] Wherefore I caused them to go forth OUT OF THE LAND OF EGYPT, and brought them INTO THE WILDERNESS. [11] And I gave them my statutes, and shewed them my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them.[12] Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.[13] But the house of Israel rebelled against me in the wilderness: they walked not in my statutes, and they despised my judgments, which if a man do, he shall even live in them; and MY SABBATHS THEY GREATLY POLLUTED: then I said, I would pour out my fury upon them IN THE WILDERNESS, TO CONSUME THEM.

The above scripture points out the people that were brought out of the land of Egypt and why they were destroyed. They were polluters of Gods sabbath day. So what about those saints who are also mentioned in Jude? The common salvation?

REV. 14 [11] And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. [12] HERE IS THE PATIENCE OF THE SAINTS: HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD, AND THE FAITH OF JESUS.

 

[GreenNnice]

This subject of law, faith, works, grace, planting, growing, is really not for the 'milk' of heart . It's deep, deep stuff, the idea of faith being both not ours and ours is enough to fry some's brains. I hope they just see that as not ready for the meat yet, this my prayer, the Lord's Word is true and does not EVER come back void, what He says is truth and what He says goes, we are to be doers and sayers of the Word, so, my prayer is that those who think that we are not to USE OUR FAITH, that we are saved by "Jesus works alone" as crossnoted put it, really LOOK hard into Scripture on this subject AFTER having first gone to the Holy Spirit for understanding. And, if you still don't get it , after reading , don't sweat it, the Lord leads. Do NOT ever give up on God, for He NEVER will give up on you
\
we ALL are 'wired' differently by God, a.k.a. have different 'gifts,' and we all work according to His will in OUR life with our faith in Him that He gave us. Whew ! That sounded like such a mouthful there

We are saved in Christ alone, His work for us, through us, in us , all our life doing , by His grace are we saved, through faith.

Galatians 2:20 is a good verse to go read now.

 

[GreenNnice]

It does not say ANYWHERE in Scripture we are saved by Jesus' works alone on the cross, but we CAN be saved by Jesus' works with faith in Him. That is what Scripture says .Faith. There are places in Scripture where grace is mentioned but it's with faith, we are JUSTIFIED of our salvation through grace? Nope. Through faith.

Galatians 2:20, I will list it for you, again, that word faith is in there:

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."


It does NOT say : I live by GRACE in the Son of God...for me."

The verse says: I live by FAITH.....for me."

 

[GreenNnice]

I meant 'His image is reflected in the Law'. Thanks for the correction.

Crossnoted, I'm still not sure of what you are trying to say here. You're welcome, the Lord leads


Christ's image, and, work on Earth, is a perfect reflection of God's grace and Love, for IF we saw Christ as the laws that we are to KEEP then we would NEVER come to Him, in the first place, when He draws us to Him to choose Him for salvation. But, Christ is Love, and , by His grace are we saved, through faith, in being His workmanship . Eph. 2: 8-10

Why do you capitalize the 'L' in the word 'law' is my question to you, too.

 

[Blain]

The law and faith should not be two seperate ways of faith. The true faith ones self should be in accordance in both the law and faith. They are as I said two sides of the same coin. We follow the law because we love him. I do not understand how people cannot accept this. We live a life pleasing to God by following his statues and loving and seeking him with all our hearts.
If we seek his heart above all else, all other things will fall into place. he show us the meaning of scripture, he will give us a humble and loving heart. He will teach you to love all others like he does. Jesus came to fulfill the law yes? now how do you fulfill the law? By acting them out, he gave us all an example to follow as he did not break a single commandment and constantly taught to obey them.

 

[crossnote]

But, crossnoted, those words , 'true faith' are nowhere in Scripture. It's just faith, yes, trusting in His grace given to us through God's Son dying on the cross.


Herewithin are words of possession of faith, that God GAVE to the saints, herewithin, too, is where Jude urges us to be building ourselves up on our most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, which is HOW we increase our faith.


We are to KEEP ourselves in the Love of God. Again, how this is done is by building up our faith, and, that is done by praying to the Spirit who convicts us, reaches out to us, teaches us what we are to know to do.

Now, does this all have to do with salvation ? Yes, it has to do with faith in Him, continuing to build our faith up in Him and keeping ourselves in the love of God's ways for our life. That does not come easy, it takes FAITH, constant faith, building up of our faith, as He leads us, crossnoted, the Lord leads

You don't believe there is a false faith or are you playing word games?
How does 'faith' come? Here, no hear,...
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
(Rom 10:17)
Those who trust in lies have a faith also...it is called deceived.

 

[crossnote]

Exactly, NOW, you are getting it, crossnoted, we are to build OUR FAITH, see, it IS our faith, God gave us our faith to USE, as I just showed you in Jude, where it talks about 'building on the most holy faith,' this means to use our faith

God GROWS our faith, we MUST put our trust in Him, there is NO mention of grace here, except in 1 Cor. 3 where it says that Paul is a 'wise builder,' but that it is ONLY by the 'grace of God given him.'

Everything is by God, by His grace given, giving us gifts to use as Romans 12:6 states , whatever they may be to USE our gifts in 'proportion to our faith.' God gave us our measure of faith, we are just to use it as He wants us to, whether it's planting, watering etc. Then, God provides the growth and IF we want to put it in stock market terms, God makes what we do of VALUE, too, and, it IS going to be of value for His glory, for His kingdom, for bringing others to Christ.

Thanks but no thanks, I have been thru the Charismatic movement and the biggest lesson from it all is to seek the Giver not the gifts. There's wayyy too little emphasis on the Word and and Calvary.

 

[haz]

But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully - 1 Timothy 1:8

Note also the next verse.
1Tim 1:9
knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person (Christians/those whose faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5), but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners....

As a believer's faith is counted for righteousness, then that means we're not under the law (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18).

But for non-believers, they remain under the law trying to be perfected by the flesh. And as much as they try (some even falsely proclaiming that God is working in them to do it) they always fail to use the law lawfully.

The law is good for showing people the standard of perfection (against which they come short although it is a righteous standard) and then calling them to repentance from sin and to faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Christians had repented when we first received Christ. After that there is no more repentance. BTW, repentance is of the sin of dead works of righteousness through deeds of the law.

Note Heb 6:1-6.
Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits.For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

The law is not sin. Transgression of the law is sin.

Holiness ought to be encouraged rather than lawlessness and sin.

Yes, transgression of the law is sin.
And that applies to those who are under the law, Rom 3:19.

But note also that the law is not of faith, Gal 3:12.
And whatever is not of faith is sin, Rom 14:23.

So those who remain under the law to determine righteousness, show by their works of the law that their faith is dead. Being that there is no faith, then they are in sin. In spite of their false claims of perfect obedience to the law, they in fact fail to attain perfect obedience and are thus judged as sinners. They make themselves a sinner, Gal 2:18. They are in lawlessness.

Believers however are holy as Christ the firstfruit (1Cor 15:20) has made them holy through his sacrifice.

Rom 11:16
if the firstfruit (Christ, 1Cor 15:20) is holy, the lump (Christians) is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

 

[crossnote]

It does not say ANYWHERE in Scripture we are saved by Jesus' works alone on the cross, but we CAN be saved by Jesus' works with faith in Him. That is what Scripture says .Faith. There are places in Scripture where grace is mentioned but it's with faith, we are JUSTIFIED of our salvation through grace? Nope. Through faith.

Galatians 2:20, I will list it for you, again, that word faith is in there:

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me."


It does NOT say : I live by GRACE in the Son of God...for me."

The verse says: I live by FAITH.....for me."

Actually Gal 2.20 is saying we live by the faithfulness of the Son of God backed up by...
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(Rom 5:18-19)

See it was His obedience that saved us...faith believes that fact.

Another case in point is ...

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
(1Co 15:1-4)

It is not our faith that saves us, it is Christ's work at Calvary. Faith is merely the empty hand that receives the Good News.

 

[crossnote]

Crossnoted, I'm still not sure of what you are trying to say here. You're welcome, the Lord leads


Christ's image, and, work on Earth, is a perfect reflection of God's grace and Love, for IF we saw Christ as the laws that we are to KEEP then we would NEVER come to Him, in the first place, when He draws us to Him to choose Him for salvation. But, Christ is Love, and , by His grace are we saved, through faith, in being His workmanship . Eph. 2: 8-10

Why do you capitalize the 'L' in the word 'law' is my question to you, too.

God's Law is a reflection (image) of His character.
I capitalize God's Law for the same reason you capitalize God. It is the Law above all laws.

 

[haz]

The law and faith should not be two seperate ways of faith. The true faith ones self should be in accordance in both the law and faith. They are as I said two sides of the same coin. We follow the law because we love him. I do not understand how people cannot accept this. We live a life pleasing to God by following his statues and loving and seeking him with all our hearts.
If we seek his heart above all else, all other things will fall into place. he show us the meaning of scripture, he will give us a humble and loving heart. He will teach you to love all others like he does. Jesus came to fulfill the law yes? now how do you fulfill the law? By acting them out, he gave us all an example to follow as he did not break a single commandment and constantly taught to obey them.

Hi Blain,

What you are preaching is works of the law for righteousness as you are declaring the same message as the old covenant (the ministry of condemnation/death that was done away with, 2Cor 3:7), that anyone who does not perfectly obey the law is unrighteous.

Such doctrines are unbelief, denying Christ's work on the cross.

Whilst a Christian's behavior often does improve, that is not to be judged as proof of whether they are righteous or not. The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was righteous without any deeds of the law to be judged as proof of righteousness.

 

[starfield]

Hi Blain,

What you are preaching is works of the law for righteousness as you are declaring the same message as the old covenant (the ministry of condemnation/death that was done away with, 2Cor 3:7), that anyone who does not perfectly obey the law is unrighteous.

Such doctrines are unbelief, denying Christ's work on the cross.

Whilst a Christian's behavior often does improve, that is not to be judged as proof of whether they are righteous or not. The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was righteous without any deeds of the law to be judged as proof of righteousness.

Au contraire...
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Haz, a Christian's behaviour will improve; they won't keep bearing the fruit of unrighteousness for that's the essence of salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So how did you attain this faith?

Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Jn 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Rom 10: 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Colossians 1:5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,

 

[haz]

Au contraire...
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Haz, a Christian's behaviour will improve; they won't keep bearing the fruit of unrighteousness for that's the essence of salvation.

How do we do righteousness?
Rom 4:5
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I know you see differently and think works of the law is doing righteousness. But what does God say about this?
Rom 4:6,7
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

 

[nl]

Faith and obedience were linked by Paul the Apostle in the beginning, middle and end of the Book of Romans. See Roman 1:5, Romans 10:16, Romans 16:26

The conditions for salvation include faith in the heart: "...and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." See Romans 10:9-10. I've never found that faith can be put into the human heart by the human will. Faith in the heart must get there some other way.

"...what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?” - 1 Peter 4:7. Peter the Apostle sees a link between obedience and salvation.

James, the brother of the Lord Jesus Christ, had something to say on the nature of saving faith:

"You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

Saving faith is not sterile and lifeless. It expresses itself in love and obedience.

As stated by John the Apostle who was eyewitness to the life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ:

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: Whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother." (1 John 3:10).