gal 3:10-12 to those who keep looking law ward.
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E
the only people who do this are people who do not have true faith in Christ. Are they saved? According to james NO. Have they ever been saved? Again, according to james and Jude, no.
So whats your point?? they are not saved, never have been saved, and never will until the repent to TRUE faith. and not a fake faith (mere belief)!
So whats your point?? they are not saved, never have been saved, and never will until the repent to TRUE faith. and not a fake faith (mere belief)!
Yep and I am sure I will break the Law many more times until the day I die. That is what grace is for, when we slip and fall, when we stumble, when our nature rises up and we sin, Christ's sacrifice is sufficient to forgive. Humble repentance and a reliance on the forgiveness God gives through Christ's sacrifice does this...
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
As John says...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And all it takes is seeking God's forgiveness as stated above to wipe it clean. Christ sacrifice is the answer to sin. You seem to think that doing away with the Law is the answer, but that is not scriptural.
I am not excusing my sins they are many and ugly, but Christ is able to forgive sin. What He requires from me is that I recognize my sins and repent. Change my attitude and strive not to sin. My actions do not forgive my sin or absolve them, only Christ's sacrifice can do that. but when I sin, I have an advocate...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
As John says...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
And all it takes is seeking God's forgiveness as stated above to wipe it clean. Christ sacrifice is the answer to sin. You seem to think that doing away with the Law is the answer, but that is not scriptural.
I am not excusing my sins they are many and ugly, but Christ is able to forgive sin. What He requires from me is that I recognize my sins and repent. Change my attitude and strive not to sin. My actions do not forgive my sin or absolve them, only Christ's sacrifice can do that. but when I sin, I have an advocate...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
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E
Now this should bring you to heart.
If God saved me when I was his mortal enemy, why is he going to take his salvation back when I am his son, just because I happened to make a mistake? Does God somehow love me less when I am his son then when I was his mortal enemy??
So here it makes it clear. he not only made propitation for my sin, and your sin, but the sin of every man woman and child who ever lived. Again, If he made propitiation for these sins, After we are saved. how can we suffer for them again??
and should this not also prove that no one will go to hell for personal sin?? Since Christ ALREADY made propitiation for ALL SIN??
But this is a one time event is it not?? How many times do you have to seek gods forgiveness and get saved before you start making a mockery of grace??
As for the law not being scriptural. You have already been shown the MANY passages which PROVE we are saved by faith apart from the law.. Thus in order for you to say it is not scriptural, you must ignore half the NT
You just contradicted yourself.. You state your actions are not required. But in the same breath you said you do something every time you sin, and then strive to work to stop sin..
Yes you do have an advocate, when you sin, Satan accuses you to the father before Christ, Christ (your advocate) advicates for you by showing the truth, he already paid the debt in full.. That is why there are no more sacrifices.. The priest does not have to enter once a year. Christ entered once and for all the MOST HOLY place not made with hands, to be your eternal advocate.
you want to crucify him over and over saying every time you sin,, you lose salvation. and must do something to make up for those sins (whatever that may be)
Save to the uttermost.. Evidently you do not believe this, You think he saves only temporarily and conditionally. If you believed you were saved to the uttermost. You would go to god as your abba father, not in fear of losing your salvation unless you do something..
If God saved me when I was his mortal enemy, why is he going to take his salvation back when I am his son, just because I happened to make a mistake? Does God somehow love me less when I am his son then when I was his mortal enemy??
So here it makes it clear. he not only made propitation for my sin, and your sin, but the sin of every man woman and child who ever lived. Again, If he made propitiation for these sins, After we are saved. how can we suffer for them again??
and should this not also prove that no one will go to hell for personal sin?? Since Christ ALREADY made propitiation for ALL SIN??
But this is a one time event is it not?? How many times do you have to seek gods forgiveness and get saved before you start making a mockery of grace??
As for the law not being scriptural. You have already been shown the MANY passages which PROVE we are saved by faith apart from the law.. Thus in order for you to say it is not scriptural, you must ignore half the NT
You just contradicted yourself.. You state your actions are not required. But in the same breath you said you do something every time you sin, and then strive to work to stop sin..
Yes you do have an advocate, when you sin, Satan accuses you to the father before Christ, Christ (your advocate) advicates for you by showing the truth, he already paid the debt in full.. That is why there are no more sacrifices.. The priest does not have to enter once a year. Christ entered once and for all the MOST HOLY place not made with hands, to be your eternal advocate.
you want to crucify him over and over saying every time you sin,, you lose salvation. and must do something to make up for those sins (whatever that may be)
Save to the uttermost.. Evidently you do not believe this, You think he saves only temporarily and conditionally. If you believed you were saved to the uttermost. You would go to god as your abba father, not in fear of losing your salvation unless you do something..
Problem with your statement is that I have NEVER said that. What I have said is this...
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
What is a sin unto death?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Wilfully choosing to disobey, to sin is the unpardonable sin because those committing it will NOT stop. They will not repent, so therefore they are doing despite to the Spirit of grace and there is no further sacrifice.
Now, I expect that you will treat this post as you have every other one that I have made and ignore it and post what you wish I had said instead of what I actually said.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
What is a sin unto death?
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Wilfully choosing to disobey, to sin is the unpardonable sin because those committing it will NOT stop. They will not repent, so therefore they are doing despite to the Spirit of grace and there is no further sacrifice.
Now, I expect that you will treat this post as you have every other one that I have made and ignore it and post what you wish I had said instead of what I actually said.
H
No, there is no contradiction.
When we believe in Jesus we cannot be charged with sin. Our faith is counted for righteousness hence there is no sin that can be charged against us.
But, if we fall into unbelief by turning back to the law for righteousness by deeds of the law, then we're in sin.
Remember it's the sin of unbelief in Jesus that the world is convicted of, John 16:9.
Yes, I have redefined sin from what you have wrongly understood.
I've used God's definitions from scripture, whereas you have been following man's ambiguous definitions that tradition has taught us.
These are all spiritual relating to those in unbelief, which is the sin the world is convicted of.
Take fornication for example. This is referring to those who are in spiritual fornication with Hagar/works of the law for righteousness, Gal 4:24.
1Cor 5 also speaks of such fornicators.
But if we start reading scripture as the natural man would then we miss the spiritual truth.
...therefore Christians can be charged, convicted, and reprimanded for sin in their lives. You have to make that conclusion otherwise you would be contradicting yourself.
It appears you believe that any sin Christians commit isn't really a sin because we are under grace thus we are in a sinless state hypothetically as per 1 John 3:6, isn't it? I don't know how you came up with this idea but it is unscriptural and absurd. If once saved, we are incapable of ever sinning again, why would we need an advocate, Jesus Christ?
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
It appears you believe that any sin Christians commit isn't really a sin because we are under grace thus we are in a sinless state hypothetically as per 1 John 3:6, isn't it? I don't know how you came up with this idea but it is unscriptural and absurd. If once saved, we are incapable of ever sinning again, why would we need an advocate, Jesus Christ?
1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
H
Sorry for the late reply. A busy day at work gave me little time for forums.
We see the 10 commandments are the law that was written and engraved in stones. That was the ministry of condemnation/death, that was done away with, 2Cor 3:7.
Please correct me if I misunderstand you, but you seem to be preaching the old covenant of righteousness by perfect obedience to the law, or else we're condemned to death?
Instead, what I see in scripture is that Christians keep his commandments as described in 1John 3:22,23.
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
We see the 10 commandments are the law that was written and engraved in stones. That was the ministry of condemnation/death, that was done away with, 2Cor 3:7.
Please correct me if I misunderstand you, but you seem to be preaching the old covenant of righteousness by perfect obedience to the law, or else we're condemned to death?
Instead, what I see in scripture is that Christians keep his commandments as described in 1John 3:22,23.
we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.
H
Hi crossnote,
Scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.
This applies to 1Cor 5&6 too. The offenses they describe are all spiritual.
For example 1Cor 5 refers to spiritual fornication, where someone had his father's wife.
The "father" refers to the devil (as Jesus described in John 8:44).
His "wife" refers to Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:25.
Note also 1Cor 5:7 which says to "purge out the old leaven".
Jesus described "leaven" in Matt 16:12 as the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law (as the Pharisees preached).
So we see the reference to "leaven" confirming that 1Cor 5 speaks about spiritual fornication with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law.
Remember, Christians are one spirit with the Lord.
1Cor 6:15-18
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot (Hagar)? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Flee fornication (with Hagar). Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
Scripture is spiritually discerned, 1Cor 2:14.
This applies to 1Cor 5&6 too. The offenses they describe are all spiritual.
For example 1Cor 5 refers to spiritual fornication, where someone had his father's wife.
The "father" refers to the devil (as Jesus described in John 8:44).
His "wife" refers to Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:25.
Note also 1Cor 5:7 which says to "purge out the old leaven".
Jesus described "leaven" in Matt 16:12 as the doctrine of righteousness by works of the law (as the Pharisees preached).
So we see the reference to "leaven" confirming that 1Cor 5 speaks about spiritual fornication with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law.
Remember, Christians are one spirit with the Lord.
1Cor 6:15-18
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot (Hagar)? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Flee fornication (with Hagar). Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
No, I have never said that. What I have said is that the Law defines sin. Sin is the trangression of the Law. The Law is in full force and if we break it we have sinned and are under the death penalty. Grace is the undeserved, unearned forgiveness of Christ dying in our stead to pay the price for sin. Each time we sin, we are under the death penalty of the Law and it is only through the grace of God that the penalty is paid by applying Christ's sacrifice in our stead. He then says to us...
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
What I also see in scripture is this...
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The Law defines right and wrong. Obeying the Law is right, transgressing the Law is wrong. Obeying the Law does not earn salvation, it is the gift of God...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Disobeying the Law earns us wages...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
God's grace takes us out from under the death penalty of the Law but does not give us license to live any way we choose. God is the only one who has authority to decide what is right and what is wrong. Our choice is whether to obey or not.
Joh 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
What I also see in scripture is this...
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
The Law defines right and wrong. Obeying the Law is right, transgressing the Law is wrong. Obeying the Law does not earn salvation, it is the gift of God...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Disobeying the Law earns us wages...
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
God's grace takes us out from under the death penalty of the Law but does not give us license to live any way we choose. God is the only one who has authority to decide what is right and what is wrong. Our choice is whether to obey or not.
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H
You're missing my point.
In believing in Jesus our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3. And in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5.
If we continue to believe in Jesus, then we (the new creation) remain without sin.
To say that a Christian is in sin is like saying that Jesus is in sin.
Note 1Cor 6:18
Flee (spiritual) fornication (with Hagar/works of the law). Every sin that a man doeth is without the body (body of Christ which Christians abide in); but he that committeth fornication (with Hagar) sinneth against his own body (the body of Christ).
Note that every sin (as judged through the law, 1John 3:4, which we are no longer under) that a believer commits, is outside the body of Christ (which we abide in). That is we cannot be charged (Rom 8:33) with sin/transgression of the law as we're not under the law for righteousness. Instead, our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.But if a Christian turns back to the law to prove righteousness, then they are in sin of unbelief in Jesus. They are fornicating with Hagar, which is sinning against the body of Christ which they are members of.
Yes, Jesus is the advocate for non-believers in sin. If we read 1John 1 from the beginning we see it's evangelical context as it "bears witness", "declares", "eternal life" to those without Christ so that they also "may have fellowship" with the "Father and His Son".
But after we receive Christ, our physical body is dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. It was crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6.
As our physical body is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10, why would we then judge whether we're righteous or not based on it's behavior? The physical will never be perfect, so why would we then expect that it can be, so as to attain righteousness through works of the law?
You are wrongly focusing on our imperfect physical state, which is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10.
What "sin" can be charged against Christians/the new creation in Christ?
We can't be charged with the sin of transgression of the law (1john 3:4) as we're not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1tim 1:9.
We can't be charged with the sin of unrighteousness (1john 5:17) as our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.
We can't be charged with unbelief (john 16:9) as we do believe in Jesus.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth
1John 3:6-9
Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Pet 4:1
Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered (crucified) for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind (our old man crucified with him, Rom 6:6): for he that hath suffered in the flesh (Rom 6:6) hath ceased from sin;
Scripture confirms scripture which all confirms that Jesus truly freed us from sin, John 8:36.
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H
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I agree that sin is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
But note Rom 3:19.
whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law,
But, Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.
Note how God's definitions of "sin" are all related.
Unrighteousness is sin, 1John 5:17.
Transgression of the law is sin, 1John 3:4
Unbelief in Jesus is sin, John 16:9
Whatever is not of faith is sin, Rom 14:23
So how does one become righteous/without sin?
Option 1: Righteousness by perfect works of the law/being perfected by the flesh.
Option 2: Faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. If we believe in Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness.
Christians have chosen Option 2. So then what "sin" can be charged against us? Our faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
I agree that sin is transgression of the law, 1John 3:4.
But note Rom 3:19.
whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law,
But, Christians are not under the law, Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9.
Note how God's definitions of "sin" are all related.
Unrighteousness is sin, 1John 5:17.
Transgression of the law is sin, 1John 3:4
Unbelief in Jesus is sin, John 16:9
Whatever is not of faith is sin, Rom 14:23
So how does one become righteous/without sin?
Option 1: Righteousness by perfect works of the law/being perfected by the flesh.
Option 2: Faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5. If we believe in Jesus our faith is counted for righteousness.
Christians have chosen Option 2. So then what "sin" can be charged against us? Our faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
...and that's complete rubbish. 1 Corinthians 5 and 6 speak of physical, literal sins.
This is what you're doing, Haz:
2 Cor 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
This is what you're doing, Haz:
2 Cor 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
What you will find is that we are not under the penalty of, the jurisdiction of the law to bring death. To say that the Law no longer applies to us opens some interesting complications...
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Sin is only imputed by the breaking of the Law. I hope you don't meet someone who is "not under the Law" in a dark alley some night. Whatever they do to you would not be sin because after all, sin is not imputed when there is no Law. so they are free to do as please to you.
Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Sin is only imputed by the breaking of the Law. I hope you don't meet someone who is "not under the Law" in a dark alley some night. Whatever they do to you would not be sin because after all, sin is not imputed when there is no Law. so they are free to do as please to you.