Cessationism or Continuationism: What Does Scripture Say?

[Donkeyfish07]

You know my views on this so I won't get in to that. but I will say that there is much fraud out there as well. Many do not believe in the gifts do to the infiltration of frauds in the church. You know they are out there. So do I. So if there are still active gifts in this day I am assuming for every 1 certified person who performs gifts there is at least about 50 frauds.

I'd say the number is even higher...100 to 1 sounds about right

 

[NiceneCreed]

Hi NiceneCreed,

I am very eager to learn more on this topic of Cessationism vs. continuationism and the spiritual gifts. My first question to you on this topic is related to either side of this discussion and that is, are not all Christians given a least one or more spiritual gifts at the time of their salvation when they are born from above? My belief is that every Christian is given some form of spiritual gifts when they are born again. These gifts will become evident in the believers spiritual life for the building up of the Church as they mature in Christ. The bible does say, " All members do not have the same function and we have gifts that differ according to the grace given to us." Rom12:4-6 Seem logical to me that every part of the body of Christ would have some type of spiritual gift. But it is also possible that I am missing your point of view about God's gifts to the Church.

I would first like to say, yes! All believers do have at least one of the spiritual gifts (In some cases, several of the gifts). However, I believe some Christians willingly choose not to use their gifts, and in other cases, some are not even aware they possess such gifts. The next question one might ask is - If spiritual gifts come from the Holy Spirit and are not of ourselves, are the spiritual gifts still employed, even an instances where one does not acknowledge the gifts are still in use, or, in instances where one is unaware of what spiritual gifts are? This is a question which needs to be investigated further on my part. I personally feel spiritual gifts are employed whether or not a believer acknowledges or is aware of those gifts. In some instances, however, people may willingly choose to resist the spiritual gift given to them through the power of the Holy Spirit. In any case, everything we do as Christians should glorify God. I hope this brought some degree of clarity to your inquiry about the spiritual gifts.

Grace and Peace!

 

[NiceneCreed]

not it is not that clear.
its a presupposition.

It is Apparent you misunderstood what was said. There is a difference between one who prophecies (Employs gift of the spirit) and a prophet (One who Provides Revelation; the canon is complete). I personally do not want to engage you on the specifics, but if you would care to research the difference between one who employs the spiritual gift of prophecy and a person who is designated as a prophet further, there are excellent online resources which cover the topic.


Lastly, the English transliteration for the word "perfect" in this context is, "teleios" (telios). This word can mean "perfect," "mature," or "finished." I take the position that "perfect" in this context does indeed refer to the 'Second Coming.' Take another look at verse 8. Is there anything you see? Note that Paul states, " . . . where there is knowledge, it will pass away." Surely Paul could not have been referring to Scripture when he said this. Remember that Jesus said "Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away" (Mark 13:31, New International Version, 2011). Remember also that 1Corinthians 12 teaches us believers have spiritual gifts. Also, take a look at verse 12 of 1corinthians 13:12. Paul states, ". . . Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." Is Paul referring to leaving this world and entering the kingdom of heaven? I think so. Finally, even if one reads 1Corinthians 13:13, there is no basis to believe the spiritual gifts ceased. Notice what the text says: "And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love." Recall that spiritual gifts were employed in Scripture, even after Paul made this statement. Do you believe the Holy Spirit cannot any longer work through believers, or that God chose not to allow believers to have spiritual gifts any longer? Why does God no longer want for believers to have spiritual gifts, through the power of the Holy Spirit who is still one earth? What is the biblical basis for your position, outside of the passage I just addressed. Can you tell me why God would have reason to take away the spiritual gifts? What is you Scriptural support?


Respectfully,

Nicene Creed

 

[zone]

It is Apparent you misunderstood what was said. There is a difference between one who prophecies (Employs gift of the spirit) and a prophet (One who Provides Revelation; the canon is complete). I personally do not want to engage you on the specifics, but if you would care to research the difference between one who employs the spiritual gift of prophecy and a person who is designated as a prophet further, there are excellent online resources which cover the topic.

familiar with them.
if you don't want to engage on the specifics,
that's cool.
thx then.

cessation was predicted; planned and happened exactly as God ordained.
3 periods of Miraculous activity on that level:

Moses & Exodus
Elijah & Elisha
Jesus & The Apostles

Lastly, the English transliteration for the word "perfect" in this context is, "teleios" (telios). This word can mean "perfect," "mature," or "finished." I take the position that "perfect" in this context does indeed refer to the 'Second Coming.'

like i said.
presupposition.
based on thinking what goes on today has anything to do with what we read in Acts or any of the Holy Writ.
it doesn't.

Do you believe the Holy Spirit cannot any longer work through believers, or that God chose not to allow believers to have spiritual gifts any longer? Why does God no longer want for believers to have spiritual gifts, through the power of the Holy Spirit who is still one earth?

a) Do you believe the Holy Spirit cannot any longer work through believers < absurd
b) or that God chose not to allow believers to have spiritual gifts any longer? < they weren't needed - SCRIPTURE IS WHAT IS NEEDED.
c) Why does God no longer want for believers to have spiritual gifts, through the power of the Holy Spirit who is still one earth? < He wants faith; which cometh by HEARING....apostolic authority is no longer in question, ergo signs and wonders not needed (nor desirable for a God who WANTS FAITH) to authenticate message and authority

just read it.

 

[NiceneCreed]

I am sad to see you did not address my interpretation for any of the specific verses in my last reply to you. Aside from the fact there were several typos, you should have had no problem whatsoever in understanding what I had said. I think you can do much better than this! Quite frankly, I am disappointed you did not also provide an interpretation of Mark 13:31; 1Corinthians 12:8, 10, 12, or 13. And I don't dispute God would rather us focus on the Gospel Message, as spiritual gifts (signs, miracles, healing, etc.) are only secondary to what is most important: The Revelation of Jesus Christ. But what of spiritual gifts that are not for those who lack faith (unbelievers), but, instead, are for those with faith (the Body of Christ)? Prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for believers. Likewise, even the gift of tongues, if not being employed for the purpose of spreading the Gospel or for edifying the church, what use is it? Clearly these gifts can benefit believers within the Body of Christ. You must believe that God still works miracles, so why is it impossible to believe He has the power and authority to work miracles through Christians who are filled with the Holy Spirit? If you can provide me Scriptural support for your position (which you failed to do in your last response), I will reconsider my view. Until then, I think we will have to agree that, while we have differing opinions, we both have a zeal for correctly dividing God's Word. Thanks for your interest in the topic.

Grace and Peace!

 

[notuptome]

familiar with them.
if you don't want to engage on the specifics,
that's cool.
thx then.

cessation was predicted; planned and happened exactly as God ordained.
3 periods of Miraculous activity on that level:

Moses & Exodus
Elijah & Elisha
Jesus & The Apostles



like i said.
presupposition.
based on thinking what goes on today has anything to do with what we read in Acts or any of the Holy Writ.
it doesn't.



a) Do you believe the Holy Spirit cannot any longer work through believers < absurd
b) or that God chose not to allow believers to have spiritual gifts any longer? < they weren't needed - SCRIPTURE IS WHAT IS NEEDED.
c) Why does God no longer want for believers to have spiritual gifts, through the power of the Holy Spirit who is still one earth? < He wants faith; which cometh by HEARING....apostolic authority is no longer in question, ergo signs and wonders not needed (nor desirable for a God who WANTS FAITH) to authenticate message and authority

just read it.

God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. The church's authority is the word of God. The Holy Spirit moves in men's hearts convincing them of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[zone]

God has chosen the foolishness of preaching to save those who believe. The church's authority is the word of God. The Holy Spirit moves in men's hearts convincing them of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

that's pretty much it.
and a miracle (great enough to cause rejoicing in heaven) happens every time a sinner is saved.

2 Timothy 3
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

 

[zone]

I am sad to see you did not address my interpretation for any of the specific verses in my last reply to you. Aside from the fact there were several typos, you should have had no problem whatsoever in understanding what I had said. I think you can do much better than this! Quite frankly, I am disappointed you did not also provide an interpretation of Mark 13:31; 1Corinthians 12:8, 10, 12, or 13. And I don't dispute God would rather us focus on the Gospel Message, as spiritual gifts (signs, miracles, healing, etc.) are only secondary to what is most important: The Revelation of Jesus Christ. But what of spiritual gifts that are not for those who lack faith (unbelievers), but, instead, are for those with faith (the Body of Christ)? Prophecy is not for unbelievers, but for believers. Likewise, even the gift of tongues, if not being employed for the purpose of spreading the Gospel or for edifying the church, what use is it? Clearly these gifts can benefit believers within the Body of Christ. You must believe that God still works miracles, so why is it impossible to believe He has the power and authority to work miracles through Christians who are filled with the Holy Spirit? If you can provide me Scriptural support for your position (which you failed to do in your last response), I will reconsider my view. Until then, I think we will have to agree that, while we have differing opinions, we both have a zeal for correctly dividing God's Word. Thanks for your interest in the topic.

Grace and Peace!

you've said several times you don't really want to debate the issue (get specific) - but now you want me to.
that's fine.

there's nothing to debate anyways.

k.....thank you

 

[NiceneCreed]

I never said I did not want discuss the topic of whether 'Cessationism' or 'Continuationsim' was the correct view. If you reread my reply, I roughly stated that I did not want to get into the differentiation between one who has the gift of prophecy and one who is a prophet. Please do not take my words out of context. I pray we can continue to have a friendly discussion. I hope my replies have not offended you in any way.

Grace and Peace!

 

[RickyZ]

We were walking down the Venice boardwalk, a beach front tourist trap where the Hare Krishna’s like to recruit. So we come across a group of about 15 of them, with more arriving. They’re chanting and singing and beatin’ the tambourines and drums, and showing every sign of just getting started. My friends stop to watch for a moment.

My ‘spidey senses’ are in full alarm. I step back and quietly to myself I start praying in the Spirit to bind, silence, and disperse the dark spirits and their humans. Soon my friends want to move on and so we do. So we stroll another block and a half, decide that’s far enough, and turn around to start back.

When we come to the place the Krishna's had been, there’s no sign of them. Except for 2 down by the water talking to themselves they were gone with the wind. This was no more than 5 minutes later, if that.

So this either came from God or satan. The Bible says a house divided against itself cannot stand. So if I used a falsified gift (which would have come from satan) why was the evil dispersed? satan took a stand against his own thru me?

Or is it actually possible that God interceded thru my spiritual language prayers and dispersed the evil?

 

[NiceneCreed]

Very interesting!

 

[SarahM777]

We were walking down the Venice boardwalk, a beach front tourist trap where the Hare Krishna’s like to recruit. So we come across a group of about 15 of them, with more arriving. They’re chanting and singing and beatin’ the tambourines and drums, and showing every sign of just getting started. My friends stop to watch for a moment.

My ‘spidey senses’ are in full alarm. I step back and quietly to myself I start praying in the Spirit to bind, silence, and disperse the dark spirits and their humans. Soon my friends want to move on and so we do. So we stroll another block and a half, decide that’s far enough, and turn around to start back.

When we come to the place the Krishna's had been, there’s no sign of them. Except for 2 down by the water talking to themselves they were gone with the wind. This was no more than 5 minutes later, if that.

So this either came from God or satan. The Bible says a house divided against itself cannot stand. So if I used a falsified gift (which would have come from satan) why was the evil dispersed? satan took a stand against his own thru me?

Or is it actually possible that God interceded thru my spiritual language prayers and dispersed the evil?

Sorry Ricky,

Not enough info to say one way or the other. You never saw what happened to them,you don't give the time during the day in which this happened,no description of the boardwalk. IE are there shops along the boardwalk? The time that one thinks has passed is often very subjective,most people have no idea how much time has actually passed. From your description it may be from the Lord and again it may not be. You also have no idea what you actually prayed for so was it actually an answer to a pray and do you really know?

 

[zone]

I never said I did not want discuss the topic of whether 'Cessationism' or 'Continuationsim' was the correct view. If you reread my reply, I roughly stated that I did not want to get into the differentiation between one who has the gift of prophecy and one who is a prophet. Please do not take my words out of context. I pray we can continue to have a friendly discussion. I hope my replies have not offended you in any way.

Grace and Peace!

but - i can't discuss it without knowing where in scripture you found "the differentiation between one who has the gift of prophecy and one who is a prophet."

please clarify if you would.
thank you

 

[Abiding]

you could have just walked by the Krishna's not prayed at all walked by turned
around and they were gone..because they had places to go....why would God have made them leave?
didnt they obviously go somewhere else? if they went somewhere else would
they be less evil there? Does God make evil go away if we pray for it?
Why? Go where? There is a thing called superspiritual where we "think"
we are movers and shakers. And interpret everyday things as if we played
a superspiritual part. I know this personally.

A believer prays for a friend for three months and his friend is healed from a disease.
His neighbors wife is a pagan so is he and he doesnt pray and his wife is healed from a disease.
The believer says his prayer caused the healing. What caused the pagans healing?

 

[zone]

Sorry Ricky,

Not enough info to say one way or the other. You never saw what happened to them,you don't give the time during the day in which this happened,no description of the boardwalk. IE are there shops along the boardwalk? The time that one thinks has passed is often very subjective,most people have no idea how much time has actually passed. From your description it may be from the Lord and again it may not be. You also have no idea what you actually prayed for so was it actually an answer to a pray and do you really know?

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!
and there we have it!

haha. sorry.
it's just so ridiculous.

 

[zone]

you could have just walked by the Krishna's not prayed at all walked by turned
around and they were gone..because they had places to go....why would God have made them leave?
didnt they obviously go somewhere else? if they went somewhere else would
they be less evil there? Does God make evil go away if we pray for it?
Why? Go where?

all good points.

 

[unclefester]

just read it.

Now there's a novel idea !



* must spread reputation around before giving it to Zone again*

 

[zone]

Now there's a novel idea !



* must spread reputation around before giving it to Zone again*

FABIO!?!
LOLOLOLOL

 

[unclefester]

FABIO!?!
LOLOLOLOL

It was time to reveal my true identity

 

[SarahM777]

LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!
and there we have it!

haha. sorry.
it's just so ridiculous.

What is sad about the whole thing is no where does he say he ever spoke to any of them about Jesus and the mighty acts of God. Which according to Acts is what ALWAYS happened when they spoke in tongues.