Cessationism or Continuationism: What Does Scripture Say?

[NiceneCreed]

I think perhaps we don't agree on what Paul is saying. I think the point Paul is making is that, there will be no need for prophecy, tongues, knowledge or other spiritual things when we come into the presence of God. It seems to me, therefore, that Paul is not saying spiritual gifts will cease at the closing of the canon. To the contrary, it appears Paul is saying spiritual gifts will no longer be necessary when we come into the full presence of God, at the 'Second Coming' of Jesus Christ. I have to add that I am a Baptist, so my view is definitely a little slanted with favor toward Continuationsim. Also, I cannot perfectly understand myself as God has understood me, at least, not in this lifetime. Perhaps we can discuss this a little further, that is, if you would like. Thank you for presenting your particular position on this topic. And might I suggest also, if you haven't already, read my article attached to page one of this forum. As I noted in a previous statement to another member, the article is a tad bit elementary in nature, but it addresses my particular position on this topic, without leaving one to wonder where my position lies on this matter.



Grace and Peace!

 

[SarahM777]

there might be 3 or 4 cessationists here. If anyone believes that, I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell ya.

UMMM Stephen,

Did you even look at the numbers for the poll at the top?

 

[NiceneCreed]

LOL! I admire your sense of humor.

 

[SarahM777]

Another thing I focused on is verse 10 of 1 Corinthians 13, what does Paul mean when he says, ". . . then that which is in part shall be done away"? Surely Paul could not have been referring to the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, however, that is usually the argument presented by cessationists: "The canon is perfect and the Holy Spirit is not." Just listen to how that line of thinking sounds. It sounds blasphemous, doesn't? And indeed it is! However, I have heard some of the strangest arguments as to why spiritual gifts ceased at the closing of the canon. Anyway, if you haven't already, check out my article posted to this forum. You may find it a bit elementary, but nonetheless, it raises some valid points about the misbelief that is cessationism. Thanks for the interest in the topic.


Grace and Peace!

UMM Where does anyone who says they believe in cessationism says the Holy Spirit is not perfect?

Can you answer why Paul would even HAVE to put in there that the sign gifts would end if they were to continue till Jesus came back? What purpose is there for that to be in there in the first place? What need is there for Paul to have even put that in there if the sign gifts were to continue?

 

[NiceneCreed]

Great question! Paul was simply saying that when we come into the full presence of God, there will be no more need for the spiritual gifts. "Perfection" in this context, I do believe, refers to the "second Coming' of Christ, when all believers will come into the full presence and glory of God. For example, what would the purpose of prophecy be when we are in heaven? Exactly . . . there is no need for it when we are in the presence of God almighty! If you haven't already, please read my article posted on page one of this forum. Thank you for your interest in the topic!

Grace and Peace!

 

[SarahM777]

Great question! Paul was simply saying that when we come into the full presence of God, there will be no more need for the spiritual gifts. "Perfection" in this context, I do believe, refers to the "second Coming' of Christ, when all believers will come into the full presence and glory of God. For example, what would purpose of prophecy be when we are in heaven? Exactly . . . there is no need for it when we are in the presence of God almighty! If you haven't already, please read my article posted on page one of this forum. Thank you for your interest in the topic!

Grace and Peace!

I disagree,Remember Jesus had already warned us there would come a time when there would be strong delusion, People would come with sign and wonders that would be so strong that if it were possible EVEN the elect could be deceive if it were possible. Is it not possible that Paul is WARNING us that the signs gifts would end so that we would NOT be led into deception if the "sign gifts" started again?

Is it not possible that when Paul says the sign gifts were to end it's to give us a grounding point in which to test these things? God did tell it is His Word that would endure forever. God wants us standing on His word. Is it not possible that that IS ONE OF THE TESTS to line it up with scripture?

 

[NiceneCreed]

I think you have raised some valid points. However you must remember that Jesus said, "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you" (John 14:26, New International Version, 2011). And I could not agree more that if people are looking for sign to have faith in Jesus, they are in danger of being deceived by false prophets. Does this mean, however, that if the Holy Spirit does work through believers, believers should say ". . . It is not from God, but the Devil"? Notice in my article, located in the second to last and last line of the final paragraph, I state, "These differing views [Cessationism & Continuationism] have left me with many more questions than answers, but I have concluded regardless of which view you support, in the end, spiritual gifts are only secondary; what is most important is that we have God's love."

Also, what is the point of including information regarding the Holy Spirit in the Scripture, if the Holy Spirit was only accessible to those living prior to the closing of the Canon? Or let me pose the question another way: If you believe the Holy Spirit is still on earth and working in the hearts of believers, then what purpose does it serve, that is, if it does not uplift believers in a manner that brings glory to God? Why is there even mention of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, if indeed those gifts do not apply to us today? Remember I ask these questions out of curiosity, because Jesus said, "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand" (Mark 3:24). Or how can we say if spiritual gifts do bring glory and honor to God that they are not from God?


Lastly, I do not dispute the fact there are many false prophets who lure people into an apostate religion. It is unfortunate the term "Charismatic" has been high-jacked by a wave of New Age, Neo-pagan Televangelists. Shouldn't all Christians be charismatic? Of course they should be. But we should not confuse charisma with what these heretics make it out to be on television. This is just one reason I used the term Continuationist, as opposed to Charismatic, when explaining the belief in gifts of the Holy Spirit. There is such a thing as a false Christianity, and more often than not, the leaders or representatives of this false Christianity use so-called spiritual gifts to deceive people. However, there is a difference between genuine spiritual gifts that are used to glorify God and edify the Body of Christ and those which are used to glorify one's-self and take the glory away from God, by focusing on miracles rather than His [God's] Word.


Therefore, I am in agreement we should not focus on spiritual gifts, signs or wonders, to the extent we lose sight of that which is truly important; Jesus Christ. Yet we should not attempt to negate how God uses His Holy Spirit through men to carry out His [God's] will.


Grace and Peace!

 

[SarahM777]

I think you have raised some valid points. However you must remember that Jesus said, "But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you" (John 14:26, New International Version, 2011). And I could not agree more that if people are looking for sign to have faith in Jesus, they are in danger of being deceived by false prophets. Does this mean, however, that if the Holy Spirit does work through believers, believers should say ". . . It is not from God, but the Devil"? Notice in my article, located in the second to last and last line of the final paragraph, I state, "These differing views [Cessationism & Continuationism] have left me with many more questions than answers, but I have concluded regardless of which view you support, in the end, spiritual gifts are only secondary; what is most important is that we have God's love."

Also, what is the point of including information regarding the Holy Spirit in the Scripture, if the Holy Spirit was only accessible to those living prior to the closing of the Canon? Or let me pose the question another way: If you believe the Holy Spirit is still on earth and working in the hearts of believers, then what purpose does it serve, that is, if it does not uplift believers in a manner that brings glory to God? Why is there even mention of the spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 12, if indeed those gifts do not apply to us today? Remember I ask these questions out of curiosity, because Jesus said, "If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand" (Mark 3:24). Or how can we say if spiritual gifts do bring glory and honor to God that they are not from God?


Lastly, I do not dispute the fact there are many false prophets who lure people into an apostate religion. It is unfortunate the term "Charismatic" has been high-jacked by a wave of New Age, Neo-pagan Televangelists. Shouldn't all Christians be charismatic? Of course they should be. But we should not confuse charisma with what these heretics make it out to be on television. This is just one reason I used the term Continuationist, as opposed to Charismatic, when explaining the belief in gifts of the Holy Spirit. There is such a thing as a false Christianity, and more often than not, the leaders or representatives of this false Christianity use so-called spiritual gifts to deceive people. However, there is a difference between genuine spiritual gifts that are used to glorify God and edify the Body of Christ and those which are used to glorify one's-self and take the glory away from God, by focusing on miracles rather than His [God's] Word.


Therefore, I am in agreement we should not focus on spiritual gifts, signs or wonders, to the extent we lose sight of that which is truly important; Jesus Christ. Yet we should not attempt to negate how God uses His Holy Spirit through men to carry out His [God's] will.


Grace and Peace!

I never said believers do not have the Holy Spirit. That in and of itself does not mean that the Holy Spirit still works through the sign gifts. The evidence of the Holy Spirit is the fruit of the Spirit,love,joy,peace,patience,goodness,kindness,
gentleness,faithfulness,and self control. No where in Acts can one even find that ALL believers received a sign gift. After Acts 19 Luke does not record that believers started speaking in tongues,and very little about any other sign gift. And from Acts 19 to the end is over a period of seven years. Why doesn't Luke record it? Why does James tell us when we are sick to go before the elders,be anoited with oil and pray the prayer of faith and not tell us to go seek someone who had the sign gift of healing? If the sign gifts were to continue why does James tell us what he does and not the other?

Again the whole question goes to is this what we are seeing today truly from God or not? And the second question is how do we test it to see that it lines up with scripture? How does one test the spirit that is speaking through one if one does NOT know what they are saying? How does one know if one speaking a language one doesn't know that they are praising God or cursing Jesus? I don't know about you but I for one do not want to let some spirit have control over what I say if it is a spirit that is cursing Jesus. So how does one know the difference? How do we test this before one even speaks that the spirit is from God or not?

The biggest problem with it that I see is that it seems that for the most part it is based on a subjective reality. Where does God ever tell us to base it on subjective reality?

 

[NiceneCreed]

I feel as though I have adequately addressed several of the points you just raised in my previous posts. Concerning the gift of Tongues, Paul states, "For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified" (1 Corinthians 14:13-17, New International Version, 2011). So if one were to reference what Scripture has to say about speaking in tongues, we plainly see if there is no one to interpret what one is saying, then that person speaking in tongues should remain quiet in the church, as it does nothing to edify the Body of Christ.

Furthermore, Paul states, "What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God" (1 Corinthians 14:26-28). Hopefully that clarifies your concerns, regarding not knowing what one is saying when a believer speaks in tongues. You may even want to question whether or not that an individual is truly speaking in tongues if there is no one to interpret.

Lastly, and to the best of my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong), 1 Corinthians was written after the Book of Acts. While you correctly state spiritual gifts are not recorded in any book after the Book of Acts, why would Paul then feel it necessary to discuss spiritual gifts with the church of Corinth?


Grace and Peace!

 

[SarahM777]

I feel as though I have adequately addressed several of the points you just raised in my previous posts. Concerning the gift of Tongues, Paul states, "For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. Otherwise when you are praising God in the Spirit, how can someone else, who is now put in the position of an inquirer,say “Amen” to your thanksgiving, since they do not know what you are saying? You are giving thanks well enough, but no one else is edified" (1 Corinthians 14:13-17, New International Version, 2011). So if were reference what Scripture has to say about speaking in tongues, we plainly see if there is no one to interpret what one is saying, then that person speaking in tongues should remain quiet in the church, as it does nothing to edify the Body of Christ.

Furthermore, Paul states, "What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God" (1 Corinthians 14:26-28). Hopefully that clarifies your concerns, regarding not knowing what one is saying when a believer speaks in tongues. You may even want to question whether or not that an individual is truly speaking in tongues if there is no one to interpret.

Lastly, and to the best of my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong), 1 Corinthians was written after the Book of Acts. While you correctly state spiritual gifts are not recorded in any book after the Book of Acts, why would Paul then feel it necessary to discuss spiritual gifts with the church of Corinth?


Grace and Peace!

Sorry Acts was written about 62-63 AD,1 Corinthians was written about 55 AD.

You did NOT address why James wrote about healing the way he did. James was most likely also written after 1 Corinthians. Most likely the later half of the AD 50's.

You also did NOT address how one tests the spirit that is speaking through you. Again how do you know when you are speaking in tongues that the spirit that is speaking through you is praising God or cursing Jesus?

 

[NiceneCreed]

Even if the Book of Acts was written after 1 Corinthians, we can confidently say the Book of Acts is a continuation of Luke. Therefore, while Acts may have been written after 1 Corinthians, the events which took place in Acts occurred prior to the writing of Paul to the church of Corinth. Secondly, James' statement does not contradict Paul's writings about the Holy Spirit. James is simply stating that people should not put their hopes in physical healings, but, should instead, put their faith in Jesus who can truly save. James never states spiritual gifts are inherently bad; merely, we should not seek out gifts to bring about true healing. Also, I felt as I though I properly addressed your concerns about not knowing what someone is saying when they speak in tongues. Even if you are speaking in tongues and you do not understand what you are saying, the Bible clearly teaches us that you are speaking in a spiritual language, and God understands what you are saying. If something does not come from God, you will know it. If your actions do not glorify God, then they are not from God. But if your actions glorify God, why question whether or not those actions are good?



Grace and Peace!

 

[NiceneCreed]

I forgot to add, it seems as though you are fixated on only two or three of the spiritual gifts (i.e., tongues, healing, etc.). What of the gifts such as knowledge, wisdom, faith, or distinguishing between spirits? Furthermore, why does Paul parallel the spiritual gifts with parts of the body?

Why does Paul say, "Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. For we were all baptized by[SUP] [/SUP]one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. [SUP] [/SUP]Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many" (1 Corinthians 12:12-14, New International Version, 2011). It seems Paul is showing how all the spiritual gifts come from the Spirit, and they all serve to edify the Body of Christ and bring glory to God. And yes, love is greater than all the spiritual gifts, but that does not mean the Holy Spirit does not distribute the gifts today, through believers, as He determines.

 

[SarahM777]

Even if the Book of Acts was written after 1 Corinthians, we can confidently say the Book of Acts is a continuation of Luke. Therefore, while Acts may have been written after 1 Corinthians, the events which took place in Acts occurred prior to the writing of Paul to the church of Corinth. Secondly, James' statement does not contradict Paul's writings about the Holy Spirit. James is simply stating that people should not put their hopes in physical healings, but, should instead, put their faith in Jesus who can truly save. James never states spiritual gifts are inherently bad; merely, we should not seek out gifts to bring about true healing. Also, I felt as I though I properly addressed your concerns about not knowing what someone is saying when they speak in tongues. Even if you are speaking in tongues and you do not understand what you are saying, the Bible clearly teaches us that you are speaking in a spiritual language, and God understands what you are saying. If something does not come from God, you will know it. If your actions do not glorify God, then they are not from God. But if your actions glorify God, why question whether or not those actions are good?



Grace and Peace!

I don't how you can say that 1 Corinthians was written AFTER the events of Acts when 1 Corinthians very well was written DURING Acts. Remember in Acts one of the places Paul went to was Corinth and that was early on. Paul goes to Corinth early in his second journey. Which was about 52 AD.

Sorry we can lie so well to ourselves. Do you have any idea how many people who actually thought they had the gift of tongues found out later that the spirit that was speaking through them was cursing Jesus. Many were so sure they had the gift of tongues,it is recorded that Mormons in the 1800's had the gift of tongues. Many of them were at peace etc etc,but they had fooled themselves into believing they truly had the gift of tongues. But all of them based it on subjective observation YET THEY WERE ALL WRONG. So outside of subjective feeling etc etc How do you test that spirit? God is very clear we are to do that. We are NOT to base it on subjective feelings. It still goes back to the fact that YOU do not know what is being said. We need to remember that Paul uses hyperbole to make his points,if we lose sight of that we will end up in a bad place.

James is very clear when he says that if any of you are sick that is what we are to do. Why does he tell us to do that if the sign gift of healing was to continue? What need would there be for James to tell us to seek healing this way if the sign gifts continued? Doesn't that seem very odd that it would be changed that way if the sign gifts continued? How does that make any sense?

 

[NiceneCreed]

You stated that Paul went to Corinth during the Book of Acts. That, however, is different from what I stated. Paul did not write the letter to the Corinthians during his stay at Corinth; rather, he likely wrote the letter to the church of Corinth while he was imprisoned. Therefore, while Paul did indeed visit Corinth in the Book of Acts, this does not imply that Paul wrote his letter to the church at that time (52 A.D.). It could have been that Paul wrote these letters at a much later date.

Secondly, please do not accuse me of being a liar, either. While we have our disagreements, as to whether or not the Holy Spirit still uses men to employ spiritual gifts, we should not resort to name calling, or at the very least, bring into question one's character. I could see if I were teaching salvation by spiritual gift (i.e., tongues), instead of salvation by Christ, why you would be justified in calling me a liar or state that I am lying to myself. But I never did any such thing In fact, I have repeatedly said we should not focus on spiritual gifts, to the extent that we neglect to focus on that which is truly important; Jesus Christ. Notice the similarity in what I just stated and that which James stated? That is no accident, I can assure you that.

Also, Mormons blaspheme God, in that, they believe they can elevate themselves to the same stature of God. So you asked how we can discern between spirits; I think it speaks for itself.


Grace and Peace!

 

[NiceneCreed]

I made a correction to the post, as there was a typographical error. I meant to say ". . . we should not resort to name calling." And I want to let you know that I thank God we have had the opportunity to discuss our differences. I only ask we can continue to do so in a non-accusatory manner. Thank you so much!


Grace and Peace!

 

[SarahM777]

You stated that Paul went to Corinth during the Book of Acts. That, however, is different from what I stated. Paul did not write the letter to the Corinthians during his stay at Corinth; rather, he likely wrote the letter to the church of Corinth while he was imprisoned. Therefore, while Paul did indeed visit Corinth in the Book of Acts, this does not imply that Paul wrote his letter to the church at that time (52 A.D.). It could have been that Paul wrote these letters at a much later date.

Secondly, please do not accuse me of being a liar, either. While we have our disagreements, as to whether or not the Holy Spirit still uses men to employ spiritual gifts, we should not resort to name calling, or at the very least, bring into question one's character. I could see if I were teaching salvation by spiritual gift (i.e., tongues), instead of salvation by Christ, why you would be justified in calling me a liar or state that I am lying to myself. But I never did any such thing In fact, I have repeatedly said we should not focus on spiritual gifts, to the extent that we neglect to focus on that which is truly important; Jesus Christ. Notice the similarity in what I just stated and that which James stated? That is no accident, I can assure you that.

Also, Mormons blaspheme God, in that, they believe they can elevate themselves to the same stature of God. So you asked how we can discern between spirits; I think it speaks for itself.


Grace and Peace!

UMM where did I say you were a lair? What I said is we can lie to ourselves.

 

[NiceneCreed]

And I inferred from your statement that I must be lying to myself, because I do acknowledge that spiritual gifts are still employed by the Holy Spirit, through believers, even to this day. Did I not address the differences between so-called spiritual gifts that do not glorify God and those which are used to glorify God and edify His church?

 

[SarahM777]

You stated that Paul went to Corinth during the Book of Acts. That, however, is different from what I stated. Paul did not write the letter to the Corinthians during his stay at Corinth; rather, he likely wrote the letter to the church of Corinth while he was imprisoned. Therefore, while Paul did indeed visit Corinth in the Book of Acts, this does not imply that Paul wrote his letter to the church at that time (52 A.D.). It could have been that Paul wrote these letters at a much later date.

Secondly, please do not accuse me of being a liar, either. While we have our disagreements, as to whether or not the Holy Spirit still uses men to employ spiritual gifts, we should not resort to name calling, or at the very least, bring into question one's character. I could see if I were teaching salvation by spiritual gift (i.e., tongues), instead of salvation by Christ, why you would be justified in calling me a liar or state that I am lying to myself. But I never did any such thing In fact, I have repeatedly said we should not focus on spiritual gifts, to the extent that we neglect to focus on that which is truly important; Jesus Christ. Notice the similarity in what I just stated and that which James stated? That is no accident, I can assure you that.

Also, Mormons blaspheme God, in that, they believe they can elevate themselves to the same stature of God. So you asked how we can discern between spirits; I think it speaks for itself.


Grace and Peace!

Where did I say that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians when he was at Corinth? What I said was that Paul wrote 1 Corinthians sometime during the time frame of Acts. They put 1 Corinthians as being being written late during his second missionary journey well before he was imprisoned.

But the fact that Mormons did speak in tongues should cause us to test where these things are coming from. The fact that people who sincerely believed that the spirit that was speaking to them was from God and they find out later that it wasn't from God should cause us to question and test these things. The fact they based it on subjective reality should cause us to question the source.

 

[NiceneCreed]

Can scholars conclusively say when 1 Corinthians was written? Even if it were written during the same time the events of Acts were unfolding (which I highly doubt), why give spiritual gifts so much focus, considering they would no longer be employed at the closing of the Canon? Remember that some dates we have for when biblical books were written are only speculative, as those dates are based off the oldest letters of antiquity known to exist, not the autographs.

 

[SarahM777]

And I inferred from your statement that I must be lying to myself, because I do acknowledge that spiritual gifts are still employed by the Holy Spirit, through believers, even to this day. Did I not address the differences between so-called spiritual gifts that do not glorify God and those which are used to glorify God and edify His church?

Again how do you deal with the fact that may people who truly believed they had the sign gifts and were so convinced of it and yet they were so wrong? They honestly believed they were glorifying God and yet they were wrong,how did they get it so wrong? Why is it that almost all who say they have this gift will believe it with all their heart,yet when people put up videos of other people doing it the other people are almost always wrong but never the people that say they have are wrong? And why is it almost no one can go through the videos and show us the difference between what they do and the video shows?