The U.S. National Cathedral Rings Its Bells In Celebration Of Homosexual Marriage.

terminallyCapricious · Jun 27, 2013

Well. I can safely say now that the only thing worse than people being mean is people being mean for God.

So I can't have the same rights as you because it's immoral according the Bible, which you believe, and which you believe everyone else should believe. But the fact is not everyone believes it. Not everyone believes that it's immoral. Meaning, not everyone must subject themselves to your beliefs so that YOU are comfortable.

You are all basically telling me that I am below you. That I do not deserve the same rights as you. You say we have always had the same rights but look at history and tell me when people have ever been murdered, tortured, persecuted for being heterosexual. Yes, plenty of heterosexual people have been persecuted, but virtually never solely because of the fact that they were heterosexual. If things were that way we would be fighting for heterosexual rights, not homosexual rights. And don't you dare bring up the persecution of Christians throughout history. This is about homosexual rights in this time, in this life, regardless of religion. This is about human rights. So don't you dare bring up that comparison. And don't you DARE compare homosexuals to animals. Gay people getting is absolutely not the same thing as a person marrying an animal. You know why? Because homosexuals ARE PEOPLE.

And you know, not just homosexuals, but anyone different from what is believed to be of superior characteristics, have had to constantly live in fear and injustice simply because of the fact that they are different, regardless of whether or not they are also religious.

That is not okay. That is also not criticism, nor healthy judgment. That is discrimination and hate. The existence of legal homosexual marriage may make you uncomfortable, but what does it matter to you? This world is ephemeral. This life is ephemeral.

So please tell me why in this ephemeral lifetime it would be better for the world if certain people did not have their rights while others did.
Please, do enlighten me. Do you really think I, as a person, don't deserve this while you do? If you do, then tell me clearly and tell me with all your heart and I will believe you and I will know there is no way you will ever be able to have any real compassion for people like me as people, and not as "criminals" or "immoral people."

terminallyCapricious · Jun 27, 2013

Clearly, you are not aware of the fact that over 1500 species of animals have been found to be homosexual. And that the animal with one of the highest rates of homosexual behaviour is bats?

If homosexuality is unnatural, then how would you perhaps explain this fact? That bats choose to be gay? Boy, that'd certainly put quite a twist on the Batman comics, wouldn't you think?

SarahM777 · Jun 27, 2013

terminallyCapricious said:

Before you get on your high horse about this,it is not about rights it's about righteousness. And before you start coming at me about this,I myself deal with transsexual issues. Been there most of my life. Jesus made it very plain marriage is between a man and a woman,and any sex outside of marriage is sin. See what we never ask ourselves is where can we walk where we will not sin. Jesus did say there were those who are born eunuchs and whether we like it or not the plumb line is CELIBACY. Most of the time we are so busy feeling sorry for ourselves and how we are so picked on. NEVER MIND THE FACT THAT most of us have caused very deep hurt and pain for other people because of what we have done,but that never counts for anything. A lot of us so much want to play the martyr,we're the innocent victim,we have been hurt so bad. Out of most people I do understand how dark and ugly the things we can and have done. Do you really believe God will excuse us for the lies we told for years? Not only before Him but before others and then we have the gall to think that others should just accept us because it's not our fault. Please explain why anyone should trust us? Why should they except that lies are normal behavior or trustworthy? Can you explain this to me who has been there? I am very aware of how we have treated others by our behavior so please don't get on your high horse with me. It's not going to fly with me.

zone · Jun 27, 2013

SarahM777 said:

Before you get on your high horse about this,it is not about rights it's about righteousness. And before you start coming at me about this,I myself deal with transsexual issues. Been there most of my life. Jesus made it very plain marriage is between a man and a woman,and any sex outside of marriage is sin. See what we never ask ourselves is where can we walk where we will not sin. Jesus did say there were those who are born eunuchs and whether we like it or not the plumb line is CELIBACY. Most of the time we are so busy feeling sorry for ourselves and how we are so picked on. NEVER MIND THE FACT THAT most of us have caused very deep hurt and pain for other people because of what we have done,but that never counts for anything. A lot of us so much want to play the martyr,we're the innocent victim,we have been hurt so bad. Out of most people I do understand how dark and ugly the things we can and have done. Do you really believe God will excuse us for the lies we told for years? Not only before Him but before others and then we have the gall to think that others should just accept us because it's not our fault. Please explain why anyone should trust us? Why should they except that lies are normal behavior or trustworthy? Can you explain this to me who has been there? I am very aware of how we have treated others by our behavior so please don't get on your high horse with me. It's not going to fly with me.

You cannot give Reputation to the same post twice.

AgeofKnowledge · Jun 27, 2013

Your argumentation is logically flawed. Humans are created in God's image (e.g. Imago Dei) and animals are not. The Bible reveals that of all God's creatures, only man was created in the expressed image of God. Read 2 Genesis 1:26-27:

"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.' So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

You will not find even a hint of animals being created likewise in the image of God anywhere in scripture but you will find them being created without Imago Dei. Interestingly, even science is now grappling with this.

See: Darwin's mistake: explaining the discontinui... [Behav Brain Sci. 2008] - PubMed - NCBI

See: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v458/n7240/full/458832a.html

A careful examination of scripture reveals that Hebrew references to "image" and "likeness" convey the idea of an object similar to or representative of something else, but not identical to it. Further, the words image and likeness should not be understood as referring to two different things but rather as interchangeable terms that reflect a Hebrew form of synonymous parallelism.

What's being communicated is that God created humans to be similar to himself, but certainly not identical to himself, and animals as animals sans-Imago Dei.

The Christian theistic worldview asserts that man's greatness is a direct result of the imago Dei. As a creature made in the image and likeness of God, man reflects the glory of his Maker, thus he is God-like in many respects, especially when compared to the animals.

However, man fell into sin (Genesis 3) and into a wretched moral condition by using his freewill to rebel against God. Biblical doctrine makes clear that the entire human race inherited guilt and moral corruption from the first man, Adam (Ps. 5 1 :5; 58:3; Rom. 5: 12, 18-19; 1 Cor. l5:22).

The historic Christian worldview contains deep understanding and insight into the human condition. As Scripture predicts, man is different in both degree and in kind from the animals. And human beings are both great and wretched, just as could be expected from a creature that is Godlike in many respects but also deeply fallen.

What you are doing is saying that man is exactly like animals morally and not made in the Image of God and that therefore if animals do something, then humans should be able to do it as well. Male lions murder the cubs of all the females every time they take over a pride. Are you arguing that humans do the same?

Your homosexual behavior is not rooted in God's morality but rather in a rebellious immorality which Satan deceived you to believe as natural and just because animals, not made in God's image, engage in animal behaviors is no justification for someone made in God's image to follow suit.

terminallyCapricious said:

AgeofKnowledge · Jun 27, 2013

See: http://christianchat.com/christian-news-forum/67521-sickened-scotus-4.html#post1092625

terminallyCapricious said:

AgeofKnowledge · Jun 27, 2013

Look at the honesty here. It's pure and genuine. To be made in the image of God includes the capacity for such genuine honesty rooted in rational thought. We are capable of following logical principles and understanding arguments. We have volition. Not only are we able to think, reason, and draw conclusions; but we are also able to deliberate and make moral choices in direct opposition to any instinct designed into animals. The latter is very different from the animal kingdom.

Yet on our own power, spiritual righteousness is gone. Our spiritual element has often been perverted even while us human beings still sense our need of God. Romans 1 and Psalms 19 makes it clear that human beings know at the core of their being that there is a God and are accountable but also that because of a fallen condition they resist. They seek a way out of their situation to engage in ungodliness. This is not a healthy state of the soul. Freud said it was. Freud said the fallen condition of humanity is the natural state of humanity but Freud had no idea that this is not normal that instead immorality gravely affected the original image of God in man.

The reformers used to say the image has been effaced but not erased. Beat up and bruised but not eradicated. But in Jesus Christ, the image of God is being restored. So the good news is that even though the image of God has been affected by the fall of humanity, that by God’s grace and the work of the Holy Spirit, humanity can begin the process of being restored back to the right image of God.

But it's not as easy as it sounds. Sometimes it's just two steps forward and one step back the whole way through sanctification cooperating with God to accomplish what we cannot in our unregenerate power. I believe SarahM777 would agree with me about this.

I always laugh when an atheist calls me a chimpanzee. In terms of raw DNA there are similarities between all living things expected with design in a common environment based on exactly the same physics. And this is what we see in scripture. But a high degree of similarity when it comes to raw DNA factors really teaches us nothing about the image of God contained within humanity. Man has an eternal spirit and a moral freewill that an animal does not.

Chimpanzees are about as smart as average four or five year old children. But if you are impressed with the chimpanzee, then let me introduce you to a bright seven year old exercising language skills through symbols they manipulate apart from instinct and able to network and communicate in a highly developed manner with abstract logical thinking and reasoning. You don’t have to tell a fourth grader that Aristotle discovered laws like the law of non-contradiction, excluded middle, and identity. They have natural capacities to reason and make moral choices. And those natural capacities are what we expect from the Bible; the image of God.

SarahM777 said:

SarahM777 · Jun 27, 2013

AgeofKnowledge said:

Agreed,I would never ever tell anyone that it is easy to get through this. But this is what is often left out,God has given us everything we need to do so. The first key is that we need to see ourselves as God sees us,and that includes the areas where we are in sin. (It's always easier to shift the blame,it's her fault,it's the serpent's fault ... just change the words a bit and it's no different then what happened in the garden) For some crazy reason we get this in our head that when God tells us something it's to take away our fun,or some other type of weird thinking. See when God gave us His law and the plumb line for us to live it is for our GOOD,it's not meant to harm us,but always be sure that anything that goes against His law will in the end kill us.

God has given us ways to overcome it. The first He tells us to be transformed by the renewing of our mind. We are told to do this in Philippians

Philippians 4

8 Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things. 9 Whatever you have learned or received or heard from me, or seen in me—put it into practice.And the God of peace will be with you.

Part of the key is to have our minds changed so that our wills are in line with His. It cannot and never will be God changing His ways to suit us. He also tells us to resist the devil and he will flee. We need to learn to stand on His word. It's the same way Jesus over came the temptations that Satan placed before Him. The real question is do we believe Him?

AgeofKnowledge · Jun 27, 2013

I don't have to go through it to know it's not easy. It's observable. And, just what I've been through in my own life confirms sanctification out of the world is difficult. The enemy's attacks and a world of people who resist God and blame me for everything under the sun while they launch endless accusations as if I had anything at all to do with the Crusades, the witch hunts, etc... etc... etc... ad infinitum doesn't make it easier either. But grace abounds in Christ and Jesus isn't looking down at any of His children instructing us to be a body whose members support each other both morally (e.g. accountability) and in His agape love.

I don't know if we ever completely and perfectly achieve John's ideal expressed in Revelations on the narrow path in this lifetime, but I'd like to think we eventually do

:

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." -Revelations 22:14-15.

The choice of which we align with in our hearts (even if our behavior falls short sometimes), as always, is each person's to make.

terminallyCapricious · Jun 27, 2013

I just don't understand why you can't just leave other people be on focus on your freaking selves. Instead of worrying so much about whether or not other people get married.

Why do you care about living in a perfect place now when you're gonna get it later. My gosh.

High horse. Yes, my horse horse of self pity and despair and victimisation. How ever shall I live with myself.
Seriously, sorry you had your share of troubles. I'm perfectly aware everyone has had their share of troubles, some more than others, and it is not my place to say who has had more or less because that is irrelevant.

But seriously, WHY. DO. YOU. ALL. GIVE. A. CRAP. ABOUT. STUFF. THAT. ISN'T. EVEN. ABOUT. YOU. OR. DOESN'T. DIRECTLY. AFFECT. YOUR. BASIC. HUMAN. RIGHTS. OTHER. THAN. MAKE. YOU. REALLY. SAD. THAT. THE. WORLD. IS. SO. CORRUPT.

The world is already corrupt, but it's getting better. You know why? Because more people are being allowed to be free. I know it's also not my place to tell a bunch of people to shut up on a website that belongs to them. But like I said, I don't care that you guys are religious. It just bothers me that you use your beliefs to justify discrimination and condemnation of other people who aren't you.

AgeofKnowledge · Jun 27, 2013

You're still engaging in the fallacious argumentation and so drawing the wrong conclusions about God, your condition, and us. But the answer to your first question is quite simple: we are involved in spiritual warfare and part of that is you attempting to influence us to accept what is wrong as right. That's something we cannot do and resist out of our regenerate nature (the part of our soul that God the Holy Spirit renewed).

Let's reframe the question. Why can't you just leave other people to focus on yourself instead of worrying so much about us rejecting a life of grave sexual immorality to the point of perverting God's marriage covenant?

You appear to have little historical understanding of the power of freewill to accomplish great evil and destruction. Your comment, for some reason, reminds me of an incident that occurred in which an innocent intelligent Christian woman named Madam Roland was brought up by immoral "liberators," for failing to compromise her morality, on fake charges during the French Revolution's 'Reign of Terror' and sentenced to die.

On 8 November 1793, she was conveyed to the guillotine. Before placing her head on the block, she bowed before the clay statue of Liberty in the Place de la Révolution, uttering the famous remark for which she is remembered:

O Liberté, que de crimes on commet en ton nom! (Oh Liberty, what crimes are committed in thy name!)

Ugly · Jun 27, 2013

terminallyCapricious said:

First TALKING. LIKE. THIS. does nothing at all to prove your point. Just makes you look obnoxious and a loss of respect. I didn't even bother reading what it said it was so annoying. Second, here you are griping about the fact that some people are 'worrying about' this subject. Well, what makes you any different? You're 'worrying about' the fact that some people have opinions different than yours. You're doing the exact same thing you're criticizing others for, just on a different topic.

Then you go on to make insults and attacks. And accuse people of discrimination. You are like a parrot of so many people anymore. And your profile says you're here to 'learn about Christianity'? What a load of crap. People learning don't attack and insult the people they're there to learn from. They ask questions and listen with an open mind. Obviously you are not doing this. In one post you have lost any and all credibility for your motives being here to learn, and anything else you will have to say on this site in the future. Now who's the one discriminating and condemning?

SarahM777 · Jun 27, 2013

terminallyCapricious said:

If you're talking about the basic right of marriage YOU ALREADY HAVE IT. You have the right to marry any one of the other sex that you choose. That is NOT DISCRIMINATION no matter how much you want to paint it that way. ALL under the marriage laws are EQUAL that way. What is trying to be changed is one group is being given SPECIAL RIGHTS not equal rights.

Now if you are talking about being beaten,raped and killed,I agree. There is no excuse for that either. But please don't sit there and try to combine the two together. They are not one and the same

Nautilus · Jun 27, 2013

Having the right to marry someone of the opposite sex is a cheap cop out. Heterosexuals get tomarry someone they love, homosexuals get to marry some random person they have new feelings for and arent even attracted to? Sure that equal....

megaman125 · Jun 27, 2013

Whether or not homosexuals can get married in the government's eyes really doesn't matter. It's not going to change the facts, and it's not going to change the statistics on homosexual marriages. As it is, the average length of a homosexual marriage is half that of heterosexuals. Breakups and cheating on the homosexual mate runs more rampant than in heterosexuals. This leads to higher depression rates and less happiness and feelings of not being able to trust the next homosexual partner. Why is that? Becuase that's what happens when you base a relationship on sex instead of love. I see it the whole thing as self-imploding, sad that these people would rather persue feelings in their pants that never satisfy rather than pursue a satisfying relationship with God.

Elizabeth619 · Jun 27, 2013

terminallyCapricious said:

Animals are not held to a Godly standard like humans are. That argument has been used over and over again and is irrelevant to the Gospel. Jesus did not come to save bats, fish, or puppies. He came to save humanity.

Since you use the homosexual animal argument I could say that animals also eat their young, and kill their own kind(especially many who fight to the death for mating purposes)
So since animals do this then I guess humans can eat babies, and any man who desires me can kill my boyfriend because he wants to mate with me. It's nature so it's ok. Right?

jimmydiggs · Jun 28, 2013

terminallyCapricious;1092466If homosexuality is unnatural said:

jimmydiggs · Jun 28, 2013

terminallyCapricious said:

Invest in mirrors, and you will be left with fewer problems.

jimmydiggs · Jun 28, 2013

terminallyCapricious said:

Mirrors, they are your friend.

AgeofKnowledge · Jun 28, 2013

Balaam-Nautilus, neither is your epistemology equal with the truth. Though homosexual activists attempt to portray homosexual relationships as equivalent in every way to their heterosexual counterparts, as you just did, they are not.

There is a stark difference between feelings derived from loving the object of one's carnal sexual immorality (e.g. a source of carnal pleasure) or even natural human love and the supernatural love that God manifests between a genuine Christian man and woman in a marriage covenant.

You most likely don't realize it but the Greek Word Eros isn't even in the Bible. One of many observable results of God's deep abiding love missing from the homosexual union is the sexual promiscuity of homosexuals:

"A.P. Bell and M.S. Weinberg, in their classic study of male and female homosexuality, found that 43 percent of white male homosexuals had sex with 500 or more partners, with 28 percent having 1,000 or more sex partners." [1]

"In their study of the sexual profiles of 2,583 older homosexuals published in Journal of Sex Research, Paul Van de Ven et al., found that only 2.7 percent claimed to have had sex with one partner only. The most common response, given by 21.6 percent of the respondents, was of having a hundred-one to five hundred lifetime sex partners." [2]

"A survey conducted by the homosexual magazine Genre found that 24 percent of the respondents said they had had more than a hundred sexual partners in their lifetime. The magazine noted that several respondents suggested including a category of those who had more than a thousand sexual partners." [3]

"In his study of male homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, M. Pollak found that 'few homosexual relationships last longer than two years, with many men reporting hundreds of lifetime partners.'" [4]

How typical of you to never even have noticed God missing from these relationships.

1. A. P. Bell and M. S. Weinberg, Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978), pp. 308, 9; see alsoBell, Weinberg and Hammersmith, Sexual Preference (Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1981).

2. Paul Van de Ven et al., "A Comparative Demographic and Sexual Profile of Older Homosexually Active Men," Journal of Sex Research 34 (1997): 354. Dr. Paul Van de Ven reiterated these results in a private conversation with Dr. Robert Gagnon on September 7, 2000.

3. "Survey Finds 40 percent of Gay Men Have Had More Than 40 Sex Partners," Lambda Report, January/February 1998, p. 20.

4. M. Pollak, "Male Homosexuality," in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, edited by P. Aries and A. Bejin, pp. 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality (Northvale, New Jersey: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), pp. 124, 25.

Etc...

-----

*Balaam, the son of Beor, was from Pethor in Mesopotamia (Deuteronomy 23:4). He was a very influential sorcerer who, although aware of the true God, made his services available on a freelance basis.

Nautilus said:

The U.S. National Cathedral Rings Its Bells In Celebration Of Homosexual Marriage.

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