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Because your focus on insisting that gay marriage be illegal affects gay people by preventing them from getting married and having rights such as being able to sponsor their spouse for immigration benefits, file income taxes jointly; have joint parenting rights; such as access to children's school records; have next-of-kin status for emergency medical decisions; have family visitation rights, such as a visit to a spouse in a hospital or prison; receive custodial rights to children, shared property, child support, and alimony after divorce; qualify for domestic violence intervention; receive spousal funeral and bereavement leave; inherit property; receive spousal Social Security payments; have immunity from testifying against spouse. I could go on. Until a few days ago, gay couples in California could not have that since Prop 8 passed.
Our focusing on insisting that gay marriage will be legalised affects people against the LGBTQA rights movement by making them unhappy that the world is now suddenly more corrupt according to their beliefs.
Like, wow. I am so so so sorry we made you uncomfortable. I really am. Your discomfort and discontent with the state of the world really resonates with me. /sarcasm
Our focusing on insisting that gay marriage will be legalised affects people against the LGBTQA rights movement by making them unhappy that the world is now suddenly more corrupt according to their beliefs.
Like, wow. I am so so so sorry we made you uncomfortable. I really am. Your discomfort and discontent with the state of the world really resonates with me. /sarcasm
And for the record, I spoke like that because I am angry. I am angry and sick and tired of people telling other people what they do and do not have the right to do when they do not speak for them (i.e. non-homosexual people deciding homosexuals cannot marry, or men deciding what women can and cannot do with their own bodies). I am sick of hearing religious people say how homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes, how homosexuals are condemned to hell, how homosexuals are being influenced by the devil, how gay marriage is comparable to marriage between people and animals, how the world must be saved of sexual immorality which includes homosexuality. I am sick of hearing religious people talk about homosexuals like they're not even people. It's insulting and it's the reason so many gay people are so depressed, especially those who are religious themselves because they feel like they are invalid and something is wrong with them and they don't belong in the world. They feel like they have to hide because they have heard all these things so many times that they truly believe that it would be better for them to not exist than for others to just mind their own business. I am sick of it and I just want it to stop but I'm just one person. I'm sick of thinking that all religious people are like that when I know they are not but it's hard to keep reminding myself of that. I genuinely want to think you are all good people as long as you're not talking about things like homosexuality because when you do talk about these things you get fired up and then I get fired up and everything goes to crap and nothing gets accomplished and everyone just disagrees to no end.
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Is that all you have to say to me?
Do you know me at all? No, you do not. Therefore, you cannot say whether or not I've read the Bible.
Since you don't know me, let me tell you a bit about myself. I grew up Seventh-Day Adventist Christian. My entire family except for my uncle is religious. I went to Christian school from grades 4-9. I went to church every weekend since I was born until age 15. Up until age 12, I believed homosexuality was wrong and that homosexuals were amongst murderers, adulterers, drunkards, etc. and would not be allowed into heaven because that is what my schools and my church taught me. In grade 9, I was one of the many people who tormented the only openly gay student in our school just for being gay. We told him that it was wrong. That he was going to hell and that it didn't even matter he was a Christian just like we were. I was among the many people who were committed to letting him know that his homosexuality was not accepted by us nor his and our religion. Since I didn't want to be a stupid bully, I re-read the Bible looking for all the verses that supported our words against this student.
This whole time, I knew I was not straight. But I knew it was wrong, so I denied it in myself. When I was 18 I knew for sure that I was gay. And I looked back on what I had done when I was younger and realised that it was wrong, regardless of whether it was utilising God's word or not.
Some of examples of the verses I had found:
In Leviticus I remember two verses. I'll paraphrase...
Man shall not lie with man as they may lie with a woman. It is an abomination.
If a man has lied with another man, they shall be put to death.
I remember the story of Sodom and Gomorrah but I didn't consider them to have anything to do with homosexuality, but rather, lack of hospitality. Sodom and Gomorrah fell because hospitality was illegal because the people were greedy and thought outsiders would take advantage of them. And when they found out Lot was taking in two outsiders, they send guards to rape them not because they were gay, but because they saw rape and domination fit as punishments. And I was only in grade 9 for goodness sake. If a child can recognise that, why can't adults?
In the New Testament, I remember homosexuality being one of the things listed as those that cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
When I was little, my favourite books of the Bible were Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. I thought Solomon was brilliant. Sometimes I think he still is.
I regularly read parts of the Bible today, even while no longer being a Christian because I want to be educated and I want to know what I am talking about.
I can't explain to you my opinions on why I don't interpret these verses the same way as you because you will only disagree with them. But the point of this reply is so that you may understand that you don't know anything about me. And that I may encourage you to think twice before making assumptions about me or anyone else, for that matter.
Do you know me at all? No, you do not. Therefore, you cannot say whether or not I've read the Bible.
Since you don't know me, let me tell you a bit about myself. I grew up Seventh-Day Adventist Christian. My entire family except for my uncle is religious. I went to Christian school from grades 4-9. I went to church every weekend since I was born until age 15. Up until age 12, I believed homosexuality was wrong and that homosexuals were amongst murderers, adulterers, drunkards, etc. and would not be allowed into heaven because that is what my schools and my church taught me. In grade 9, I was one of the many people who tormented the only openly gay student in our school just for being gay. We told him that it was wrong. That he was going to hell and that it didn't even matter he was a Christian just like we were. I was among the many people who were committed to letting him know that his homosexuality was not accepted by us nor his and our religion. Since I didn't want to be a stupid bully, I re-read the Bible looking for all the verses that supported our words against this student.
This whole time, I knew I was not straight. But I knew it was wrong, so I denied it in myself. When I was 18 I knew for sure that I was gay. And I looked back on what I had done when I was younger and realised that it was wrong, regardless of whether it was utilising God's word or not.
Some of examples of the verses I had found:
In Leviticus I remember two verses. I'll paraphrase...
Man shall not lie with man as they may lie with a woman. It is an abomination.
If a man has lied with another man, they shall be put to death.
I remember the story of Sodom and Gomorrah but I didn't consider them to have anything to do with homosexuality, but rather, lack of hospitality. Sodom and Gomorrah fell because hospitality was illegal because the people were greedy and thought outsiders would take advantage of them. And when they found out Lot was taking in two outsiders, they send guards to rape them not because they were gay, but because they saw rape and domination fit as punishments. And I was only in grade 9 for goodness sake. If a child can recognise that, why can't adults?
In the New Testament, I remember homosexuality being one of the things listed as those that cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
When I was little, my favourite books of the Bible were Proverbs and Ecclesiastes. I thought Solomon was brilliant. Sometimes I think he still is.
I regularly read parts of the Bible today, even while no longer being a Christian because I want to be educated and I want to know what I am talking about.
I can't explain to you my opinions on why I don't interpret these verses the same way as you because you will only disagree with them. But the point of this reply is so that you may understand that you don't know anything about me. And that I may encourage you to think twice before making assumptions about me or anyone else, for that matter.
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A
Yes while we have laws against all sorts of sexually immoral behaviors (e.g. pederasty/pedophilia, bestiality, statutory sexual relations, etc...). Sexual immorality applies to humans as per Imago Dei which I have already explained and as such is abnormal, unnatural, outside of God's biological design, sinful/perverted, etc... Homosexuality is a sexual immoral behavior fitting in neatly with the rest of them.
I direct you to a previous response: http://christianchat.com/christian-...ration-homosexual-marriage-2.html#post1092815
Oh and you didn't make me uncomfortable though you might have Ugly. I have God's peace.
I direct you to a previous response: http://christianchat.com/christian-...ration-homosexual-marriage-2.html#post1092815
Oh and you didn't make me uncomfortable though you might have Ugly. I have God's peace.
I respect your belief that homosexuality is immoral and I hope that I have done a satisfactory job in restraining myself from attempting to convince you why I do not agree aside from passive-aggresively pointing out that I do not agree.
I will acknowledge that my arguments went out of hand quite a few times out of my frustration. Please understand that I am a person who has feelings and sometimes I get angry and that can lead me to appear irrational, but at my core I am not irrational.
My point was basically that despite our disagreements on homosexuality, it would contribute to the progress of our society as a whole, inclusive of people of all beliefs and circumstances of birth, not to encourage the restriction of the rights of large groups of people simply because their actions, which do not physically harm anyone in any way, do not coincide with your beliefs. And rather than wishing that other people stop those actions, it would be better to exercise tolerance or "unconditional love" as some may call it for those who are different from you. I'm not suggesting that you must accept what we do, but simply not mind us, because we do not mean to harm you, and we only want to be who we are without any persecution or judgment. That's all. That's it. Nothing more.
I will acknowledge that my arguments went out of hand quite a few times out of my frustration. Please understand that I am a person who has feelings and sometimes I get angry and that can lead me to appear irrational, but at my core I am not irrational.
My point was basically that despite our disagreements on homosexuality, it would contribute to the progress of our society as a whole, inclusive of people of all beliefs and circumstances of birth, not to encourage the restriction of the rights of large groups of people simply because their actions, which do not physically harm anyone in any way, do not coincide with your beliefs. And rather than wishing that other people stop those actions, it would be better to exercise tolerance or "unconditional love" as some may call it for those who are different from you. I'm not suggesting that you must accept what we do, but simply not mind us, because we do not mean to harm you, and we only want to be who we are without any persecution or judgment. That's all. That's it. Nothing more.
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LMCS and other orthodox and faithful Pastors (according to Chris Rosebrough/Al Mohler) are already making plans for how they will deal with the coming legal requirement to marry homosexuals.
They have determined their only recourse will be to perform NO marriages.
They will advise their congregants to be married by a Justice of the Peace, then the Church will celebrate with a Matrimonial Service.
we'll see what happens.
They have determined their only recourse will be to perform NO marriages.
They will advise their congregants to be married by a Justice of the Peace, then the Church will celebrate with a Matrimonial Service.
we'll see what happens.
S
; to be quite frank, it's easy to assume out of ignorance that the world would be a better place if we "tolerated" something that we find as intolerable, maybe we should also tolerate someone cheating on their wife, or perhaps someone with a heart of love for a small child to involve them in sexual relations.... Look aside with popular secular theories on how to make the world a better place to live, there is no reason someone should feel themselves "born" gay because that's not how it is, simply it is self infatuation that drives one to have sexual relations of one of the same sex. Simply to state we were all created and there was the reason for sex to be a focal point for multiplication, like perhaps it is for flowers of some kinds, some male, some female. Now the truth is that if men are the seed, women are the egg, aka fertilizer and seed. Can you really stick a bag of seed with a bag of seed and expect something to grow? Of course not, and likewise a bag of fertilizer with a bag of fertilizer and expect something to grow? Likewise, NO. Now perhaps we can stick two bags of fertilizer with one bag of seed, now your just wasting fertilizer, likewise two bags of seed with one bag of fertilizer now you wasting seed. If you want to throw out what God had intended and assume your own way is right, first think about the dominance aspect, if there is no physical form of ONE being the soul provider than it's a struggle to assume that both can provide for the other it cancels itself out. This means that there will be MANY more arguments as well as no legacy between just the two. If we add in the factor that we perhaps take the bed OUT of the equation no sexual orientation no lust, really there's still a responsibility to populate and to multiply. I once considered myself homosexual before I met Christ I did dabble in it, but it led NO WHERE very fast. It's rather a dead end. I say if you would still choose to be homosexual then expect nothing but a dead end, because that's where it leads. You can try to be happy with that, but it's really filled with no satisfaction and still a yearning heart, for the creator God who created you. TRUE understanding is from him alone because he's always been seeing, hearing, witnessing ALL on our hearts.
A
Your strong feelings in this discussion are acknowledged terminallyCapricious. I hope you realize I'm completely unoffended and have enjoyed our discussion. I wish you both truth and peace.
Zone, you realize that's exactly what pastors had to do behind the iron and bamboo curtains under the state atheism of the 20th century. Truly we don't live in a vacuum but rather an ongoing spiritual war. When one side gains ground, it's the other side usually losing it.
Not too many Christians understand the long march of Cultural Marxism and what's happening. The homosexual lobby will eventually agitate to make the law of the land such that pastors must marry homosexuals. If they are successful, because this obviously violates the human rights and consciences of Christian pastors not to mention God's moral law: they will have to perform marriage ceremonies for eligible heterosexual couples in secret (e.g. when God's law and man's law come into conflict the solution is to disobey man's law and follow God's law) as they did under state atheism with the mainline denominations who stay true to God ceasing performing marriage ceremonies altogether.
The mainstream liberal media and liberal progressives clearly won't care a bit about the rights of genuine Christian pastors and will engage in the two behaviors liberals and homosexual activists are best known for:
1) ad hominem (e.g. portray these genuine Christian pastors as hateful, evil, and morally blighted people)
2) straw man fallacies: (e.g. distort their position and then respond to the distorted position rather than the authentic one).
In this world, it's clear that Satan is behind such things and persecution usually follows when the devil gains the upper hand. Thank God we know the ending though.
Zone, you realize that's exactly what pastors had to do behind the iron and bamboo curtains under the state atheism of the 20th century. Truly we don't live in a vacuum but rather an ongoing spiritual war. When one side gains ground, it's the other side usually losing it.
Not too many Christians understand the long march of Cultural Marxism and what's happening. The homosexual lobby will eventually agitate to make the law of the land such that pastors must marry homosexuals. If they are successful, because this obviously violates the human rights and consciences of Christian pastors not to mention God's moral law: they will have to perform marriage ceremonies for eligible heterosexual couples in secret (e.g. when God's law and man's law come into conflict the solution is to disobey man's law and follow God's law) as they did under state atheism with the mainline denominations who stay true to God ceasing performing marriage ceremonies altogether.
The mainstream liberal media and liberal progressives clearly won't care a bit about the rights of genuine Christian pastors and will engage in the two behaviors liberals and homosexual activists are best known for:
1) ad hominem (e.g. portray these genuine Christian pastors as hateful, evil, and morally blighted people)
2) straw man fallacies: (e.g. distort their position and then respond to the distorted position rather than the authentic one).
In this world, it's clear that Satan is behind such things and persecution usually follows when the devil gains the upper hand. Thank God we know the ending though.
; to be quite frank, it's easy to assume out of ignorance that the world would be a better place if we "tolerated" something that we find as intolerable, maybe we should also tolerate someone cheating on their wife, or perhaps someone with a heart of love for a small child to involve them in sexual relations.... Look aside with popular secular theories on how to make the world a better place to live, there is no reason someone should feel themselves "born" gay because that's not how it is, simply it is self infatuation that drives one to have sexual relations of one of the same sex. Simply to state we were all created and there was the reason for sex to be a focal point for multiplication, like perhaps it is for flowers of some kinds, some male, some female. Now the truth is that if men are the seed, women are the egg, aka fertilizer and seed. Can you really stick a bag of seed with a bag of seed and expect something to grow? Of course not, and likewise a bag of fertilizer with a bag of fertilizer and expect something to grow? Likewise, NO. Now perhaps we can stick two bags of fertilizer with one bag of seed, now your just wasting fertilizer, likewise two bags of seed with one bag of fertilizer now you wasting seed. If you want to throw out what God had intended and assume your own way is right, first think about the dominance aspect, if there is no physical form of ONE being the soul provider than it's a struggle to assume that both can provide for the other it cancels itself out. This means that there will be MANY more arguments as well as no legacy between just the two. If we add in the factor that we perhaps take the bed OUT of the equation no sexual orientation no lust, really there's still a responsibility to populate and to multiply. I once considered myself homosexual before I met Christ I did dabble in it, but it led NO WHERE very fast. It's rather a dead end. I say if you would still choose to be homosexual then expect nothing but a dead end, because that's where it leads. You can try to be happy with that, but it's really filled with no satisfaction and still a yearning heart, for the creator God who created you. TRUE understanding is from him alone because he's always been seeing, hearing, witnessing ALL on our hearts.
As for the born/choice thing. Speaking from experience, I was aware at a very young age that I was attracted to girls more than boys, but this attraction was misunderstood and therefore suppressed. Though I may identify as gay, notice how I said that I am able to be attracted to both genders, but my attraction to girls is much stronger than my attraction to boys. Attraction has to do with chemical reactions in the brain and is not defined very well through labels such as heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual. It's more of a spectrum, and many people are often surprised to find that people who identify as not 100% straight will find themselves to fit more in the grey area of that spectrum.
I find I am perhaps 90-95% on that spectrum if I were forced to assign a number to myself. Meaning, I am almost completely attracted to strictly women. I can't control this attraction just like how straight people can't control their attractions for the opposite gender
I have tried dating boys, and then I tried dating girls, and I found I was much happier in the company of other girls. It wasn't the I never found the right guy. All the boys I had showed interest in were very nice and genuinely wonderful, intelligent, funny people, but I was just not attracted to them and I preferred to be friends with them, while I found myself very nervous (in a fluffy way) around girls and wanted to connect with them on a level much deeper than friendship.So because sexual orientation is more of a spectrum rather than a bunch of boxes than one must fit themselves into, it is problematic to lump all these people into two sides: heterosexual and homosexual. I have a friend who attracted to primarily girls for most of his life until he found he was also attracted to boys, and though he did not really care nor intend to have a relationship with another boy, it happened, and they have been together for two years now.
For some people, it can lead to a dead end. For others, it can lead to happiness. It's not different from finding a relationship as a straight person. You can run into a dead-end or you can find happiness regardless of sexual orientation. The circumstances of one's birth are irrelevant, and it's what one does with their life that determines who they are (yes, I did just quote Mewtwo).
Now, for the populate and multiply... just because you are in a relationship with a person of the same gender does not mean your reproductive parts suddenly stop working. They can still produce children. They just do it a little differently, or they can adopt children who desperately need loving homes, which a lot of gay couples can provide for them. And I hope you do not assume that just because they are of the same gender that they are not good parents. It is very possible for the sexual orientation of a child's parents to have little influence on a child's life. Again, speaking from experience, someone I know in school was raised by two fathers who also happened to be Christian, and they grew up in faith and are still in the faith, had a 4.0 gpa in high school, and are now currently attending one of the top art schools in the United States.
I understand that it is the practice of homosexuality that was deemed an abomination, but who other people fall in love with is no one's business but those people's, and it is only respectful that we do not interfere with them or their wish to find happiness.
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If you sick of religious people and what they say then why are you on a Religious forum? Don't get me wrong I
Am happy you're here, but if you don't like the Christian perspective and it upsets you then why even carry on a conversation about it with Christians? Why enter a thread that obviously speaks against homosexuality if you don't like what we say?
You are willfully continuing on with a conversation that you admit frustrates you. Why intentionally talk about this if you get mad about it?
If I don't like a thread I don't type in it.
Am happy you're here, but if you don't like the Christian perspective and it upsets you then why even carry on a conversation about it with Christians? Why enter a thread that obviously speaks against homosexuality if you don't like what we say?
You are willfully continuing on with a conversation that you admit frustrates you. Why intentionally talk about this if you get mad about it?
If I don't like a thread I don't type in it.
D
Any translation is by definition an interpretation of the original, often guided and inspired by the (political) agenda of the translators involved. It's debatable whether 'homosexuality' is the correct/accurate translation of the original hebrew and greek here. If we believe, and pray the Holy Spirit for enlightenment before we begin to read, the Bible is indeed God's Word. By that definition God hasn't spoken here; you just quoted a handful of passages from the Bible, out of context, and from a highly interpretive translation.
You can try to every which way to make it right,but God is very clear that marriage is between a man and a woman,and any sex outside of that relationship is wrong. God is far wiser then we are He knows we like to find the loop holes,but He did close all of them. No matter how much anyone wants to slice it,dice it and put it through a blender,God is giving us HIS definition of what He means by adultery. Every sexual sin is a form of adultery.
If you look at the literal interpretation of the Bible, of course gay marriage is not the right thing. But I have never understood why gay marriage is more or less the only thing (perhaps abortion as well) the only issue that is attacked by conservatives. Why do I barely hear that divorce should be illegal? Why do I never hear that there should be a law mandating people to turn their other cheek when they get punched in the face? Why do I never hear that it should be illegal and punishable to call anyone 'father' except for God (Matthew 23:9)? Why do I never hear that being drunk should be illegal and punishable (Ephesians 5:18)? Why do I never hear that judging other people should be illegal?
And these are only teachings from the New Testament.
If you live according to all of them and you try to fight for those rules as much as the one opposing gay marriage, I've got respect for that. If you do not, then please read Matthew 7:5: "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
And these are only teachings from the New Testament.
If you live according to all of them and you try to fight for those rules as much as the one opposing gay marriage, I've got respect for that. If you do not, then please read Matthew 7:5: "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."