The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification

[homwardbound]

A woman whose purse is on the table dropped a hundred dollar bill on the ground, which she did not notice.
One man walks by and sees the money and is tempted to take it, but thinks to himself, that would be sinful, for it is written thou shalt not steal
Another man walks by and sees the money and is tempted to take it, but thinks to himself, that if he were to do that, that God would punish him for his wicked deed.
Another woman walks by and sees the money and is tempted to take it, she would not even notice, but thinks to herself, i am not a thief, even though i could really use the money probably more then she needs it, by the look at what she is wearing, i don't want to be looked as a thief.
Another man walks by and sees the money and is tempted to take it, but immediately thinks about the woman who lost the money, and how it might effect her by losing the hundred dollars.
Tell me, which person loved the woman who lost the money? None of them took the money, for whatever reasons, none of them committed sin. The first three were operating under the law of works, and not the law of faith.

If a person does not steal because it is written Thou shalt not Steal, is under the works of the law.
If a person does not steal because they love that person, that one is under the law of Faith. They do not steal because it is written Do not Steal, they do not steal because they LOVE.

^i^

Yes God's type of love is the fulfillment of all, God had and has compassion, Mercy, for me I am thankful and care for my neighbor, by first putting me in their shoes, to have better understanding and listen for God to direct me, a learning process for us all. With out the Mercy from God there would be no chance, God does not take back what God says is done. God is 100% faithful and has gathered together all that believe God. It all starts at the death where we are 100% forgiven, then comes and came the resurrection for life in the Spirit of God, by the death we are those that believe presented
[h=3]Colossians 1:15-23[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[h=3]The Supremacy of the Son of God[/h][SUP]15 [/SUP]The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. [SUP]17 [/SUP]He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. [SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, [SUP]20 [/SUP]and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. [SUP]22[/SUP]But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—[SUP]23 [/SUP]if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.

So it is finished done for us all and those that believe without any other motive than

"Comfort God by letting God know that you would see God just to dwell in God's Presence. Not for teaching, not for material gain, not even for a message, but for God. The longing of the human heart to be loved for itself is something caught from the Great Divine Heart."
otherwise I do not see God revealing truth to anyone, you all choose?

 

[just-me]

כל כך שמח שלא להשתמש בשם המפורש

So glad I did not use the explicit?

Me too whatever it was. LOL GBU

 

[homwardbound]

Homwardbound,

I know you are passionate in what you write but please consider your doctrine in light of what the Bible actually teaches.

I have seen you post previously that you believe that "sins are already forgiven BEFORE you even commit them." That clearly illustrates that you view salvation as purely POSTIONAL and thus disconnect salvation from heart purity. Those are dangerous things to believe and the the Spirit of God is not behind such teachings.

God bless.

God bless you and I pray for your happiness, I have been through the works game, the guilt trip, which is what keeps one in sin.
Yes trust in God alone, God gets all the glory, and about sin, I have and thankful I am forgiven, God knows my heart and yours too.
I do not mix law and grace anymore, used to and I was most miserable never being able to attain, so the Law which is pure did it's Job and killed me in my flesh and bore me again in the new life in the Spirit of God
Love you deeper that you to me obviously know, along with God's provision for you at the cross of Christ
[h=3]Colossians 1:21-22[/h]New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Sorry you do not see what God has done for you, so you can rest medicine, from your works as he has from his.
Hebrews 3, and 4 are revealing chapters on this rest. Best description though is the KJV, although the others serve their purpose, yet one says obedience the other belief
And true belief in the true God produces obedience to the Faith of Christ, leaving the letter of the Law behind, and receiving the Spirit of the Law, God's Love best described in 1 Cor 13:4-13

 

[just-me]

in what ways are we at odds?
doctrine?

could you elaborate?
because even after looking at your site i'm still unclear on your doctrine.
thank you

It's not my doctrine. I have nothing to offer of myself alone. Sound doctrine, which you and I can both agree, is from God alone.

 

[homwardbound]

I know that many will not accept what I'm going to say. Being born again and salvation are closely connected, but I take them as not identically the same. To me, being born again is the beginning of a life of salvation. Salvation of the journey, or way of life to me. Being born again is the start of that way of life.
Psalm 68:19 (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.
Psalm 86:3 (KJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Be merciful unto me, O Lord: for I cry unto thee daily.
Isaiah 58:2 (KJV)
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.
Matthew 6:11 (KJV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Give us this day our daily bread.

everything you just posted was prior to the cross, under the Law of Moses. after the cross we forgive not ask for to get forgiven, we forgive because we are forgiven, We do not love to get loved as was before the cross. rather we love because
1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us.

A big difference in before and after, I am on this side of the cross where I stand forgiven and loved by God, thanks to Christ, so simple it is not simple

 

[just-me]

everything you just posted was prior to the cross, under the Law of Moses. after the cross we forgive not ask for to get forgiven, we forgive because we are forgiven, We do not love to get loved as was before the cross. rather we love because
1 John 4:19 We love because he first loved us.

A big difference in before and after, I am on this side of the cross where I stand forgiven and loved by God, thanks to Christ, so simple it is not simple

Good point. One has to remember then that the 4 gospels are really the old testament, until the resurrection recorded starting the first day of the week after the weekly Sabbath. Nevertheless God's compassion has not changed, neither has being justified by faith according to Hebrews chapter 11. And to add to your post, His love endures forever since the beginning of time recorded throughout Biblical history. God bless you man.

 

[Hoffco]

To Zone, Part of the problem in interpreting the Bible is that most of us don't have a good working grammar, nor a Biblical meaning of Bible words; Therefore most pastors can not develop a good biblical systematic theology. and most pastors just blindly follow their church doctrinal statement. In this apostate church age we have to buck the system to learn the Truth on our own, not many have the guts to do this. two good sourses of theology are the Westminster conf. of faith, and Baptist Conf. of 1667.
Salvation has 2 basic parts: sanctification and justification. Sanct. has 3 parts, Justi. has 3 part.
Sanct. is God's power working us,in 3 stages: 1. New birth, a new creation ,heart circumcision
2, Holy living, growth of godly character
3. perfection in Heaven ,after death and the resurrection body
Justification is god's forgiveness of our sins, 3 stages: 1. by grace 2. by faith 3. by works

In sanctification God imparts His holy nature to us---In justification God imputes Christ's righteousness to our record in Heaven.
Salvation is a very broad term: it includes all of the above.
Sanct. is a very narrow term, only involved in our conversion and growth, our condition of heart.
Justi is very narrow, only involved with our forgiveness and position with God.
God only saves His elect ones.but He offers salvation to all who repent, trust and obeys Him.
""He who calls you is faithful,who also will do it." 1 Thes.5:24
the Bible is full of paradoxes, which seen to us as contradictions; but we are not to play God and adjust
God's truth to our liking. Hoffco Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[Skinski7]

To Zone, Part of the problem in interpreting the Bible is that most of us don't have a good working grammar, nor a Biblical meaning of Bible words; Therefore most pastors can not develop a good biblical systematic theology. and most pastors just blindly follow their church doctrinal statement. In this apostate church age we have to buck the system to learn the Truth on our own, not many have the guts to do this. two good sourses of theology are the Westminster conf. of faith, and Baptist Conf. of 1667.
Salvation has 2 basic parts: sanctification and justification. Sanct. has 3 parts, Justi. has 3 part.
Sanct. is God's power working us,in 3 stages: 1. New birth, a new creation ,heart circumcision
2, Holy living, growth of godly character
3. perfection in Heaven ,after death and the resurrection body
Justification is god's forgiveness of our sins, 3 stages: 1. by grace 2. by faith 3. by works

In sanctification God imparts His holy nature to us---In justification God imputes Christ's righteousness to our record in Heaven.
Salvation is a very broad term: it includes all of the above.
Sanct. is a very narrow term, only involved in our conversion and growth, our condition of heart.
Justi is very narrow, only involved with our forgiveness and position with God.
God only saves His elect ones.but He offers salvation to all who repent, trust and obeys Him.
""He who calls you is faithful,who also will do it." 1 Thes.5:24
the Bible is full of paradoxes, which seen to us as contradictions; but we are not to play God and adjust
God's truth to our liking. Hoffco Let God be true and every man a liar.

The Westminster Confession of Faith is erroneous. It is rooted in Augustinian fatalism and utterly denies genuine heart purity in a Christian.

It teaches that Jesus obeyed for you and that His obedience is credited to your account. Chapter 9, Article 1

It teaches that "the elect" you can sin and not surely die, only fall under God's displeasure. Chapter 9, Article 5. Chapter 17, Article 3.

It teaches that sin is a malady as opposed to a crime. Chapter 6.

It denies the free agency of man which in turn is a denial of men being responsible for their rebellion. The blame is shifted to Adam and ultimately God. Chapter 9.

It is a document of one error establishing the premise for further errors. It is a very dangerous statement to believe.

 

[Skinski7]

how are sins committed after salvation forgiven Scott?
just briefly please.

Again as I have said to you before you need to make the distinction between two kinds of sin. Sin that is willful and sin that is not willful.

Willful presumptuous sin brings instant death and condemnation and the only means of escape from such a condition is via repentance and faith. Not a superficial worldy sorrow but a genuine broken godly sorrow which lays the axe to the root of iniquity in the heart. Such a brokenness produces wholehearted submission to God and it is only via wholehearted submission and thus the forsaking of rebellion that God grants mercy.

Willful sin is not a small matter for a genuine Christian for it reveals a heart set on iniquity, not on God. Anyone who has a genuine abiding relationship in Jesus Christ has ceased from willful sin. One of the main purposes of the Gospel is to bring an end to willful sin once and for all. The heart is made clean. A clean heart does not produce wickedness.

Now sins committed in ignorance due to a form of complacency, misdirected priority or a lack of knowledge are not rooted in rebellion. We have an advocate in Jesus Christ for these sins and we are to confess them and turn from them. This is where Hebrews 12 is applied in regards to the discipline of the Lord. We are to be careful of a root of bitterness taking hold in regards to such correction whereby we despise the grace of God and thus become defiled.

 

[Skinski7]

God bless you and I pray for your happiness, I have been through the works game, the guilt trip, which is what keeps one in sin. You completely DODGE the substance of my post with a strawman of "the works game, the guilt trip, which is what keeps one in sin." What keeps one in sin is INIQUITY WITHIN THE HEART not a guilt trip or works game. In Rom 6:17-18 it specifically states that we are "set free from sin" via "obedience from the heart." Paul also teaches that we are set free from sin by "dying with Christ whereby our old man is crucified with Him whereby the body of sin is destroyed ' (Rom 6:4-7). Paul also teaches that it is the "law of the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death" (Rom 8:2).

My point to you is that your doctrine teaches that there is a TIME when "one is forgiven and thus justified" when they are "still in active rebellion to God." Why don't you address that issue? It seems you won't touch it. Why is that?

Yes trust in God alone, God gets all the glory, and about sin, I have and thankful I am forgiven, God knows my heart and yours too. Forgiven while one still is in active rebellion because they simply "trust"? This is nonsense.
I do not mix law and grace anymore, used to and I was most miserable never being able to attain, so the Law which is pure did it's Job and killed me in my flesh and bore me again in the new life in the Spirit of God The "forsaking of rebellion" is "mixing law and grace"? Did the Prodigal Son "mix law and grace" by forsaking the pig pen and returning to his father? Did Abel "mix law and grace" by offering an acceptable sacrifice to God whereby he was deemed a righteous man?
Love you deeper that you to me obviously know, along with God's provision for you at the cross of Christ Yet you don't love me deeply enough to discuss your theology with me. You won't address where your theology is in utter denial of the Bible.
Colossians 1:21-22

New International Version (NIV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. [SUP]22 [/SUP]But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Sorry you do not see what God has done for you, so you can rest medicine, from your works as he has from his.
Hebrews 3, and 4 are revealing chapters on this rest. Best description though is the KJV, although the others serve their purpose, yet one says obedience the other belief
And true belief in the true God produces obedience to the Faith of Christ, leaving the letter of the Law behind, and receiving the Spirit of the Law, God's Love best described in 1 Cor 13:4-13 I am not speaking about the "law of the letter" and I speaking about "rebellion to God." For some reason in your mind you equate a "cessation of rebellion" with "law keeping." They have nothing to do with each other, law keeping is an attempt to produce righteousness via regimenting oneself to rules, the cessation of rebellion on the other hand is a HEART ISSUE and involves submitting oneself COMPLETELY to the leading of the Spirit.

You doctrine makes an allowance for a serial murderer to be in a justified state via trusting in the provision while he continues on his murder spree.

In your mind you cannot have the serial murderer "consciously make an effort" to cease killing people via a broken godly sorrow and repentance. To do that would be "works and law keeping." Thus it seems all you can ever preach is trust, rest, and believe but NEVER "depart from iniquity."

There are so many who believe as you do. You continually defend sin without realising that is what you are doing.

 

[zone]

It's not my doctrine. I have nothing to offer of myself alone. Sound doctrine, which you and I can both agree, is from God alone.

okay
but you said we were at odds.
i asked in what way.

doctrine, i asked.
if so, could you please be specific.
ty

 

[know1]

You misunderstand the fact that there is no more forgiveness from God to ever be executed again after Christ's death that took all sin away from God. This is a one time reception
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
So you go right on ahead and continue to deny that God took all sin away by and through his Son Christ
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

So tell me how many sins have been forgiven back at the cross all are just a few?

You can either see truth for what truth is or follow man's interpretation and twisting of truth if you wish, we all have free choice and I thank God for this. All in Love to you by God and from God who has brought the message of reconciliation, and wishes for all to come to terms and be reconciled to God as God is reconciled to us all. So we can move onto the new life here and now in the Spirit of God through the resurrection of Christ, by the operation of God
Love you deeper than you seem to know

I certainly am not twisting scripture to make it fit my doctrine. To me, it is obvious, clear and simple, just look at most professing Christian's lives and at the scriptures, and the proof in undeniable.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 3:29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
When we sin after we first received Christ in our hearts, all sins that were committed in the past were remitted and stricken from the record by the blood of Jesus, not the present and future.
Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
The 'once for all', means that Jesus does not have to come back and do the whole process of suffering, dying, and being raised from the dead all over again, for your sins, or anyone else's sins, that were committed before they came to Christ. Once was all that was, or ever will be needed for Christ to be the sacrificial lamb for all people and for all time.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
I believe the letter to the Hebrews was to Christians, and the above verses have to do with punishment from God to the disobedient, not to the point of losing their salvation, but to where the curses of the law come into effect, in this present world.

 

[nathan3]

Are works of the law the same as works of faith? And if not, then what's the difference?

Not sure what the thread is about, but some verse to think about :::



Revelation 19:7-8
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


Revelation 20:12


12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.




2 Corinthians 5:
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Seems that Christ is who pays for your sins, after you repented. And your deeds , good or bad still count for something.

In light of these scriptures we should ask ourselves, what have we done for God's kingdom lately ????

 

[just-me]

okay
but you said we were at odds.
i asked in what way.

doctrine, i asked.
if so, could you please be specific.
ty

I kind of assumed that. Was trying to get my head wrapped around your thoughts, and when I detected you were doing the same, it was a blessing of sorts. Just crossed my mind without any substantial proof. No offence I hope. Just have lived long enough to be skeptical I guess.

 

[zone]

Again as I have said to you before you need to make the distinction between two kinds of sin. Sin that is willful and sin that is not willful.

Willful presumptuous sin brings instant death and condemnation

instant, huh?
so there's no time for repenta......oh...hold on:

and the only means of escape from such a condition is via repentance and faith.

so are we actually talking about willful sin committed after salvation?
because you said:

Willful presumptuous sin brings instant death and condemnation

so, a christian who sins willfully (after being born again/saved) dies instantly and is condemned.
is that what you are saying?

PLEASE just say yes or no.

Willful presumptuous sin brings instant death and condemnation and the only means of escape from such a condition is via repentance and faith Not a superficial worldy sorrow but a genuine broken godly sorrow which lays the axe to the root of iniquity in the heart. Such a brokenness produces wholehearted submission to God and it is only via wholehearted submission and thus the forsaking of rebellion that God grants mercy.

okay.

so there is forgiveness for willful sin committed after salvation?

just yes or no is all i asked Scott.

Willful sin is not a small matter for a genuine Christian for it reveals a heart set on iniquity, not on God. Anyone who has a genuine abiding relationship in Jesus Christ has ceased from willful sin.

i see.
no genuine Christian will commit willful sin (rebellion)
or will they?

if they do, is there forgiveness?
how are we forgiven [WAS MY ORIGINAL QUESTION - which you still haven't answered simply, as i asked you to]

two kinds of sin.....Sin that is willful and sin that is not willful.

could you expound on the distinctions between kinds of sin made here by David, please?
just use this passage if you would. keep it brief, Scott.
please.

Psalm 32:5
Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD." And you forgave the guilt of my sin.

is David saying his non-willful sin was forgiven but his rebellion was not?

(i agree it's no small matter...that WAS NOT WHAT I ASKED YOU. i asked if there is forgiveness after we have been saved - forgiveness for SIN; INIQUITY AND REBELLION....is there forgiveness, and HOW are we forgiven.

that is what i asked.

One of the main purposes of the Gospel is to bring an end to willful sin once and for all. The heart is made clean. A clean heart does not produce wickedness.

i agree Christ sets us free from bondage to sin. we are no longer to practice sin, we are to bring our bodies into submission; we are to not yield our members to sin; all of that.

have you sinned WILLFULLY since you were saved, Scott?
just yes or no dear.
if at all possible for you.

if you have, HOW were you forgiven?

Now sins committed in ignorance due to a form of complacency, misdirected priority or a lack of knowledge are not rooted in rebellion. We have an advocate in Jesus Christ for these sins and we are to confess them and turn from them. This is where Hebrews 12 is applied in regards to the discipline of the Lord. We are to be careful of a root of bitterness taking hold in regards to such correction whereby we despise the grace of God and thus become defiled.

how is it you confess sins you don't know you committed (in ignorance and/or lack of knowledge)?

could you show me anywhere "misdirected priority" listed as a sin please?
i'm afraid you'll have to go into detail about what kind of sin one commits due to "misdirected priority"

Now sins committed in ignorance due to a form of complacency, misdirected priority or a lack of knowledge are not rooted in rebellion. We have an advocate in Jesus Christ for these sins and we are to confess them and turn from them. This is where Hebrews 12 is applied in regards to the discipline of the Lord. We are to be careful of a root of bitterness taking hold in regards to such correction whereby we despise the grace of God and thus become defiled.

so you are saying there is forgiveness for sins committed in ignorance for the saved individual, and you proceed to answer the question i asked you - HOW are we forgiven: "we are to confess them"

are we forgiven as soon as we confess them? or is there a probationary period (where God waits to make sure we have turned from it...if so, how long is the probationary period? is confession before the Lord enough to receive His forgiveness for that sin, or does He require something in addition to confession? - if yes, that would fall under the first part - is there a probationary periof before we are forgiven)

Now sins committed in ignorance due to a form of complacency, misdirected priority or a lack of knowledge are not rooted in rebellion. We have an advocate in Jesus Christ for these sins

so, no forgiveness for transgressions?
just yes or no dear.
please.

 

[Hoffco]

Good morning to you in the West,usa, PROBERLY. sorry caps, it is still dark in the Philippines.I find it hard to digest all that is being said, only being on chat for one week. But I enjoy it very much.
Skinski7, I appreciate your comments on the Westminster confession, I know it is not perfect, but it is better than the dribble we get today. I find I have to be elective (selective) with most material .
My big fault with the Reform faith is that it is too logical and not fully biblical. like their doct. of infant baptism. it is logical but not fully biblical. And their A-mill. no millennium, is totally unbiblical. please give me your judgment on the Bap. conf. of 1667. your judgment on the "willful sin" is off the wall, sorry, but you are shooting from the hip and missing the target by a mile. The meaning of the Greek present tense verbs would help you, it means, habitual action that keeps going on, and 1 Jh condemns those who go on and on and on in their sinning. They were never saved, "not born of God". King David did not go on and on in his adultery and murder, he was judged by God,not killed, for a year he was suffering, until he repented in Psa,51. then he was restored psa 23 to fellowship with God, but he was never used as before. Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

To Zone, You have a legate (right) complaint with Skinsky7 and I too would like to hear a clear, yes or no , answer, if at all possible.?? We all need to understand that a yes /no ans, is not always good for the truth.
I like the phrase "probation period" you used, the christian life is like that. We do have to endure to the end to be saved.
Now, please, don't get hyper spiritual with me, and say, No WAY! it is a free gift. A very wise person once said, "salvation is free; it costs us nothing but everything" Please remember Rom.2:6-8 God " will render to each one according to his deeds" (works) eternal life to good people, wrath to bad people.
Well, so be it, for now, I need get ready for our free pancake breakfast and my preaching, message for this Sun. morning service.

 

[Skinski7]

Me in blue.

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Again as I have said to you before you need to make the distinction between two kinds of sin. Sin that is willful and sin that is not willful.

Willful presumptuous sin brings instant death and condemnation


instant, huh?
so there's no time for repenta......oh...hold on:

Yes INSTANTLY. A single act of willful rebellion to God slays you the moment you commit that act.

God said to Adam...

Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Paul taught...

Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

James taught...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Repentance is for remission (Mar 1:4). Sins are remitted via the blood (Heb 10:17-22) when we are quickened BACK TO LIFE (Col 2:11-13, Eph 2:5).

Are you not contending that "you can sin and not surely die" and that death only occurs if you don't repent later? It sure looks that way to me, don't you have "grace" being a "cloak" for a "manifest state of defilement" whereby the one in rebellion REMAINS justified?

Originally Posted by Skinski7

and the only means of escape from such a condition is via repentance and faith.

so are we actually talking about willful sin committed after salvation?
because you said: Yes I am. A willful presumptuous act of DOING EVIL when YOU KNOW it is evil. Many people don't like that answer because it means that the sin has to stop. Many people want both sin and salvation. We have to choose whom we will serve, we are not to serve both sin and righteousness.

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Willful presumptuous sin brings instant death and condemnation

so, a christian who sins willfully (after being born again/saved) dies instantly and is condemned.
is that what you are saying?

PLEASE just say yes or no. It is not a "yes or no" answer within the context you are asking your question. The individual who willfully sins falls into a state of condemnation INSTANTLY and is CUT OFF FROM GOD. Sin separates one from God both BEFORE salvation and AFTER salvation. That is what I am saying.

Just because one forsakes their rebellion in turning to God thus seeking reconciliation via the blood and is thus washed and made clean does not mean that they are no longer immune to sin separating them from God again. It doesn't mean they can spit in God's face and that there is some nebulous time period where they still remain right with God. God can have no fellowship with rebellious sinners, they are enemies of God. The Prodigal Son was no longer right with his father the moment he took his inheritance and left (he was dead).

There is no such thing as "forgiven rebellious sinners" and "unforgiven rebellious sinners." There are only "forgiven FORMER rebellious sinners." To teach otherwise is to mock the righteousness of God.

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Willful presumptuous sin brings instant death and condemnation and the only means of escape from such a condition is via repentance and faith Not a superficial worldy sorrow but a genuine broken godly sorrow which lays the axe to the root of iniquity in the heart. Such a brokenness produces wholehearted submission to God and it is only via wholehearted submission and thus the forsaking of rebellion that God grants mercy.

okay.

so there is forgiveness for willful sin committed after salvation?

just yes or no is all i asked Scott. Again not a yes or no answer because the answer can be both yes and no in my estimation. Willful sin after salvation is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS because it is rebelling from a state of being in the light. It is treating the blood of Jesus Christ like an animals blood which could not PURGE sin. Thus it is to hold the blood of Christ in contempt as something which can be used on a dime as a "free forgiveness card."

It can be nigh on impossible to find godly sorrow unto repentance from such a state which is why Peter warns that it is better to have NEVER known the truth than return to sin from a state of enlightenment.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

A clear parallel to the warning in Hebrews 6...

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Heb 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Bare in mind that both passages are not speaking of a single act of rebellion but rather a "falling away" and "entangled therein" which means and ongoing state of being.

Thus there is still hope for one who turns away from God but that one is on VERY dangerous ground indeed because I don't believe it takes much for the old man to be fully resurrected and to be totally overcome whereby one is given over to a reprobate mind.

Of course these warnings mean NOTHING to the preaching of the modern Gospel because practically no-one is getting genuinely saved anyway where they actually "escape the corruption that is in the world through lust" (2Pet 1:4). Instead most people have bought into a "trust in the provision while you remain defiled" salvation message. There is no purging and thus no resultant heart purity. It is one big HOAX.

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Willful sin is not a small matter for a genuine Christian for it reveals a heart set on iniquity, not on God. Anyone who has a genuine abiding relationship in Jesus Christ has ceased from willful sin.

i see.
no genuine Christian will commit willful sin (rebellion) Oh they can but they have to suppress their knowledge of the truth and thus in effect spit in the face of God. Willful sin in a Christian will usually be the result of complacency rather than an overt act. This is why Paul admonished believers to put on the WHOLE ARMOUR of God that they may STAND against the wiles of the devil. Temptation is subtle and plays on weakness. If a genuine Christian is to grow lackluster and allow themselves to begin to be distracted by worldly things then their heart can begin to grow cold to God whereby an act of rebellion is easy to do. Basically their senses are dulled and they end up being carried away.
or will they?



if they do, is there forgiveness?
how are we forgiven [WAS MY ORIGINAL QUESTION - which you still haven't answered simply, as i asked you to]

Hebrews chapter 10 answers this question. We are to approach God boldly via the blood with a TRUE HEART in a NEW AND LIVING WAY whereby our hearts are sprinkled of an evil conscience and our bodies are washed in pure water. The end result if HEART PURITY and an ABIDING RELATIONSHIP IN CHRIST where one has been delivered from ALL INIQUITY and MADE PURE. Again this is not something that is turned "on" and "off" within the context of a sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent/sin/repent lifestyle. The sin/repent/sin/repent lifestyle is evidence that one was never genuinely saved in the first place but rather only came to a notion of salvation yet remained a worker of iniquity.

Originally Posted by Skinski7

two kinds of sin.....Sin that is willful and sin that is not willful.

could you expound on the distinctions between kinds of sin made here by David, please?
just use this passage if you would. keep it brief, Scott.
please.

Psalm 32:5
Then I acknowledged my sin to you and did not cover up my iniquity. I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the LORD." And you forgave the guilt of my sin.

is David saying his non-willful sin was forgiven but his rebellion was not? No. David is saying...

Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

In other words blessed are those who come clean before God confessing and forsaking their sin...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

It is those people who have NO GUILE within.

It is those people who have done this...

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

They came CLEAN before God by approaching Him with a TRUE HEART.

Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[Skinski7]

(i agree it's no small matter...that WAS NOT WHAT I ASKED YOU. i asked if there is forgiveness after we have been saved - forgiveness for SIN; INIQUITY AND REBELLION....is there forgiveness, and HOW are we forgiven. See above. Godly sorrow works a genuine change of mind unto repentance (2Cor 7:10) whereby the the due diligence and motivation for the forsaking of rebellion is produced whereby one approves themselves to be CLEAR or PURE regarding their former wicked acts (2Cor 7:11), in other words iniquity is departed from as opposed to being continued in.

that is what i asked.

Originally Posted by Skinski7

One of the main purposes of the Gospel is to bring an end to willful sin once and for all. The heart is made clean. A clean heart does not produce wickedness.

i agree Christ sets us free from bondage to sin. we are no longer to practice sin, we are to bring our bodies into submission; we are to not yield our members to sin; all of that.

have you sinned WILLFULLY since you were saved, Scott?
just yes or no dear. No. Why would I want to do such a thing? That would be to turn my back on God, to turn my back on love. I don't jump in front of trucks on the freeway either. To sin is to die.
if at all possible for you. Oh it is possible and that is why I have to make sure I am on fire for God via bringing every thought into subjection. I have to make sure I am always adding to my faith and applying the full armour of God. We can all fall away very easily if we don't remain steadfast and focused.

if you have, HOW were you forgiven?

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Now sins committed in ignorance due to a form of complacency, misdirected priority or a lack of knowledge are not rooted in rebellion. We have an advocate in Jesus Christ for these sins and we are to confess them and turn from them. This is where Hebrews 12 is applied in regards to the discipline of the Lord. We are to be careful of a root of bitterness taking hold in regards to such correction whereby we despise the grace of God and thus become defiled.

how is it you confess sins you don't know you committed (in ignorance and/or lack of knowledge)? God disciplines us and reveals our wrong doing. We have to agree with God over such things and reform our character/conduct. This is sanctification. Hebrews 12 speaks of this.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

...

Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
Heb 12:16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
Heb 12:17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


could you show me anywhere "misdirected priority" listed as a sin please?
i'm afraid you'll have to go into detail about what kind of sin one commits due to "misdirected priority" I'll give you a clear example. I told someone I would help proof read and correct their manuscript. I received their manuscript but due to issues with family and a few other things I kept putting it off. Over time the proof reading issue found itself on the back plate of priorities despite of what I had said. After a period of time I was asked why I had not proof read and corrected the manuscript whereby I fell under deep conviction of what I had done. I had to apologise and seek forgiveness both from God and this person.

Where does the Bible teach such a thing? It is implied when John says...

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

A brother saw me sin not unto death and contacted me about it. All unghteousness is sin but there is a sin that is not unto death. "Sin unto death" is rebellion to God for it is the opposite of "obedience unto righteousness' (Rom 6:16).

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Now sins committed in ignorance due to a form of complacency, misdirected priority or a lack of knowledge are not rooted in rebellion. We have an advocate in Jesus Christ for these sins and we are to confess them and turn from them. This is where Hebrews 12 is applied in regards to the discipline of the Lord. We are to be careful of a root of bitterness taking hold in regards to such correction whereby we despise the grace of God and thus become defiled.

so you are saying there is forgiveness for sins committed in ignorance for the saved individual, and you proceed to answer the question i asked you - HOW are we forgiven: "we are to confess them" Absolutely we confess them and not only that, we are to not do them again. We are to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ not spurning His correction and by doing this we mature in the faith in order that we bear the image of Christ

are we forgiven as soon as we confess them? or is there a probationary period (where God waits to make sure we have turned from it...if so, how long is the probationary period? is confession before the Lord enough to receive His forgiveness for that sin, or does He require something in addition to confession? - if yes, that would fall under the first part - is there a probationary period before we are forgiven) It is a HEART ISSUE. If our hearts are right with God there is instant forgiveness. The probationary period in the Bible is the wilderness experience where, having been rescued from Egypt, our faith is tested.

Originally Posted by Skinski7

Now sins committed in ignorance due to a form of complacency, misdirected priority or a lack of knowledge are not rooted in rebellion. We have an advocate in Jesus Christ for these sins

so, no forgiveness for transgressions?
just yes or no dear. There is no forgiveness for transgression UNLESS the rebellion to God is forsaken via repentance and faith. God does not forgive someone IN their sin. He grants mercy to those who FORSAKE their sin.
please.

Here is the bottom line Zone. Modern theology teaches that salvation is an "abstract position." This "abstact position" is disconnected from the "condition of the heart."

Thus one can "be saved" and "enagaged in wickedness" at the same time under the modern message. The truth though is that the only reason anyone is engaged in wickedness is because their heart is defiled.

Thus the modern message of salvation has completely excised the necessity of heart purity in the salvation experience.

This is why they preach you get "saved IN your sins" not "saved FROM your sins."

The cross has been twisted into a provisional cloak for an ongoing state of defilement. This is usually done via teaching the cross in a Penal Substitution context whereby the basis of justification is in a forensic legal transaction, basically summed up in legally swapping places with Jesus.

This is why the modern salvation message does not preach on "dying with Christ" whereby the "old man is crucified" and the "body of sin is destroyed." That never happens. Instead people are compelled to "trust in a provision" and wait upon God to change them. In the meantime they are the Romans 7 wretch still enslaved to the service of sin due to being embodied in flesh (ie. Original Sin doctrine).

It is another gospel and it is very deceptive and it is leading untold millions to ruin who actually believe it. They may have a FORM of godliness but their doctrine FORCES them to deny that the power of God can actually deliver them from sin. Thus they teach "sin you will and sin you must" and anyone who would dare teach otherwise (like me) is a dangerous heretic.

 

[zone]

Me in blue.

no time for your fancy footwork.
you didn't answer what i asked, and you're just out to lunch on the rest.