The works of the law of righteousness vs works by faith to justification
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Me in blue.
As far as the Baptist Confession of Faith (1689). It is pure heresy along the same lines as the Westminster confession. In fact they are practically identical in what they both teach.
An example...
6. The Fall of Man, Sin and Punishment
As far as the Baptist Confession of Faith (1689). It is pure heresy along the same lines as the Westminster confession. In fact they are practically identical in what they both teach.
An example...
6. The Fall of Man, Sin and Punishment
- Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which secured life for him while he kept it, and although God warned him that he would die if he broke it, yet man did not live long in this honour. - Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, seduced Adam by her, and he, without any compulsion, wilfully transgressed the law of their creation and the command given to them by eating the forbidden fruit.
- And this act God, according to His wise and holy counsel, was pleased to permit, having purposed to order it to His own glory. - Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them (This alluding to either the traducianist view of the transmission of sin taught by Augustine (1) or to the Federal Headship view developed by the Reformers. Both the Natural Head and Federal Head theories are founded upon Augustine using a faulty translation of Rom 5:12 where he combined it with Heb 7:9-10 to support this view that all mankind was IN Adam and thus was implicated in his sin. For from this, death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin (This is a denial of Rom 7:8-11 for we are not "born dead in sin." Death is a result of yielding to sin (Jam 1:14-15) and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body (this is where the ability to obey God is denied hence the need for Unconditional Election and Irresistible Grace. Gen 4:4-7 utterly refutes this position.)
- They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, (Sounds like Federal Headship to me) the guilt of this sin was imputed (this is a lie. We are not born guilty. We are held accountable for our own sin, not Adam's), and their corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation (This is another lie, death was passed onto all men because all have sinned NOT a corrupted nature. The Bible does not teach anywhere that the sin of Adam corrupted the constitution of his descendents. It was via Augustine of Hippo in the Fourth century that such a notion was accepted as orthodox). Their descendants are therefore conceived in sin (being conceived in iniquity is very different to having iniquity conceived in you. No-one used Psalm 51 to teach this nonsense in the early church (first few hundred years) and the Jews NEVER taught it.) , and are by nature the children of wrath (Nature is Phusis in Greek and it means "growth." A "sin nature" is something that develops due to yielding again and again to sin, it is not something one is born with. In Rom 2 Paul speaks of those who "by nature" do the right thing. Eph 2:1-3 says NOTHING of birth but rather a former walk., the servants of sin, and the subjects of death and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus sets them free.
- All actual transgressions proceed from this original corruption, by which we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil. Here sin is blamed on BIRTH instead of CHOICE. This is the means by which Satan can redefine repentance to mean a "confession of sinfulness" as opposed to the "brokenness which produces a cessation of rebellion." Under this teaching sinners are convinces they are victims by birth and thus godly sorrow is neutralised.
- During this life the corruption of nature remains in those who are regenerated, and although it is pardoned and mortified through Christ, yet this corrupt nature and all its motions are truly and properly sinful. An utter denial of heart purity in salvation. It is also an allusion that they see "temptation as sin," which goes back to how Augustine viewed concupiscence as evidence of being born with a "sin nature." Gen 3:6 clearly shows concupiscence in Eve BEFORE she sinned. Concupiscence is not sin nor a sin nature, it is simply the natural passions of the flesh, natural passions God expects us to rule over.
God bless you too!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks,
New Covenant,
Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:16 [ The Mediator’s Death Necessary ] For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:17
For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Under new priesthood that lives forever in the order:
Hebrews 7:11 [ Need for a New Priesthood ] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
And because of this there is a change:
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
James 2:12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Thanks again, and hope to have put help back to you in God's strength
New Covenant,
Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 9:16 [ The Mediator’s Death Necessary ] For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hebrews 9:17
For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
Hebrews 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.
Under new priesthood that lives forever in the order:
Hebrews 7:11 [ Need for a New Priesthood ] Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron?
And because of this there is a change:
Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
James 2:12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.
Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.
Thanks again, and hope to have put help back to you in God's strength
Those that believe God's work effectively works in them, and man keeps trying to get in the way, and stump others growth, whether they mean to or not, It does. So why not take everything we read, hear, and see to God who lives in the ones that believe. For God is the teacher, not man. Attractions, are physical and or Spiritual, and mostly both, yet all are in need of Spiritual only, recognizing physical, and by God turn to God's Spirit, and trust God to show you how to react in all situations
1 Thessalonians 2:13 [ Their Conversion ] For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 [ Their Conversion ] For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.
So then God doesn't love us, while we were yet sinners, I see nowhere we are to continue in sin, nor do I see where we are to stop sin on our own accord.
I do see
1 Thessalonians 2:13 [ Their Conversion ] For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.
God's work is effective, and that God's work is placed on us, and is what has freed one from stress, strife and worry over whether God doe just love us or not.
God does, he died for the sins of the whole world, and for some reason you interpret this as a license to sin, when the death, burial, resurrection and ascension was never meant to continue to be controlled by the sinful nature, and is attributed back to Adam and Eve. God went the Spirits in prison that died without the Law and that died with the Law, and those then had their chance to be redeemed, (forgiven) and those that believed were released from prison, and he took captivity captive
WE all here have a loving God a Merciful God. It has been this way from day one.
For you to say one need to work out their salvation on their own is not doctrinal, if that is what you are saying.
It is only doctrinal if on uses the verse that says that on its own and does not read on. For it is God that works in you to God good pleasure and will.
The problem is free will, we bounce back and forth from flesh to Spirit and back to flesh whenever we sin. When in actuality one had never left the flesh, those that are doing good and then bad and then asking God to forgive them over and over again have grossly misinterpreted the word as we have professional doing the interpreting and causing all to work in the energy of their own flesh. I am responsible for any of my own sins, and Christ took then away for me, you and all that will believe God. This is the Mercy of God, and by this Mercy one either appreciates, in believing in God or one does not and stays worldly, and acting good, when no good act is ever righteous by physical flesh, for all sin has been condemned to flesh.
By the cross, first the death we are forgiven, and then by the resurrection we are made alive in God's Spirit, and dead to the old life of flesh and then we receive our guide, comforter, the Holy Ghost, and this is here for us to be led into all truth that sets one free from that old sinful life.
[h=3]1 John 2[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
I do see
1 Thessalonians 2:13 [ Their Conversion ] For this reason we also thank God without ceasing, because when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you welcomed it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which also effectively works in you who believe.
God's work is effective, and that God's work is placed on us, and is what has freed one from stress, strife and worry over whether God doe just love us or not.
God does, he died for the sins of the whole world, and for some reason you interpret this as a license to sin, when the death, burial, resurrection and ascension was never meant to continue to be controlled by the sinful nature, and is attributed back to Adam and Eve. God went the Spirits in prison that died without the Law and that died with the Law, and those then had their chance to be redeemed, (forgiven) and those that believed were released from prison, and he took captivity captive
WE all here have a loving God a Merciful God. It has been this way from day one.
For you to say one need to work out their salvation on their own is not doctrinal, if that is what you are saying.
It is only doctrinal if on uses the verse that says that on its own and does not read on. For it is God that works in you to God good pleasure and will.
The problem is free will, we bounce back and forth from flesh to Spirit and back to flesh whenever we sin. When in actuality one had never left the flesh, those that are doing good and then bad and then asking God to forgive them over and over again have grossly misinterpreted the word as we have professional doing the interpreting and causing all to work in the energy of their own flesh. I am responsible for any of my own sins, and Christ took then away for me, you and all that will believe God. This is the Mercy of God, and by this Mercy one either appreciates, in believing in God or one does not and stays worldly, and acting good, when no good act is ever righteous by physical flesh, for all sin has been condemned to flesh.
By the cross, first the death we are forgiven, and then by the resurrection we are made alive in God's Spirit, and dead to the old life of flesh and then we receive our guide, comforter, the Holy Ghost, and this is here for us to be led into all truth that sets one free from that old sinful life.
[h=3]1 John 2[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
2 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
No I have never defended sin, and no I do not excuse serial rapists and or murderers, and or anyone that is harming another, this is not what the grace of God is about, you have miss interpreted God's grace for I guarantee anyone that takes it for granted will not escape ever. God is a God of LOVE to us all, so if one sees this and sees that they are forgiven by God and ignores this, takes it for granted and just goes on doing wrongly to others as the Corinthians did, and why Paul wrote that first letter to them, because this is exactly what they were doing and Paul rebuked them, them being carnal still, not mature had to be put back under law and he did just that, to teach them, and they did learn came to a Godly sorrow in place of the worldly one they had. So tell me how will one escape. The law is still needed for the Law breakers, to show then their need for God and is why it is still in place. The ones that do not break the Law, do not need the Law, for the do not break the Law and why is this? Because of their belief and appreciation of God taking away the sin of the world in him for us to have a new life in his Spirit, not flesh by the resurrection. and thus we don't make void the law rather we uphold it. Rom 3:31
Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
under the law of Moses, death came to them by two or three witnesses, so how much sorer of punishment do you think one will get if one ignores this great salvation, done by God for us all to believe or not believe
I again gave up my works for God's works as Paul did in Philippians 3
Which is all I have ever tried to say, so whether you see this or you don't, free Choice to us all. I just know what giving up and trusting God in my works place has done and accomplished all praise and glory to the Father forever and ever
And especially thank You JESUS, because without you I could have never been presented
Ephesians 2:15 He stopped the fighting between them by His death on the cross. He put an end to the Law. Then He made of the two people one new kind of people like Himself. In this way, He made peace.
Colossians 1:22 But Christ has brought you back to God by His death on the cross. In this way, Christ can bring you to God, holy and pure and without blame.
Hebrews 2:3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
under the law of Moses, death came to them by two or three witnesses, so how much sorer of punishment do you think one will get if one ignores this great salvation, done by God for us all to believe or not believe
I again gave up my works for God's works as Paul did in Philippians 3
Which is all I have ever tried to say, so whether you see this or you don't, free Choice to us all. I just know what giving up and trusting God in my works place has done and accomplished all praise and glory to the Father forever and ever
And especially thank You JESUS, because without you I could have never been presented
Ephesians 2:15 He stopped the fighting between them by His death on the cross. He put an end to the Law. Then He made of the two people one new kind of people like Himself. In this way, He made peace.
Colossians 1:22 But Christ has brought you back to God by His death on the cross. In this way, Christ can bring you to God, holy and pure and without blame.
Oh so now you make an excuse for sin? When is sin not ever willful? First one gets the thought then one thinks on it long enough and what is born? Yes sin and sin is sin no matter how big or small, and anything without Faith in God's finished work is sin
So you say if it is willful sin or not willful, Again when is it not ever willful?
Ignoring truth that God did take away the sin of the whole world all the way back to Adam and Eve and all the way up to this very present moment, and not receiving this and thanking God for this one does not see the new life God wants to give you once one accepts that God has forgiven them, then when one receives this new Life in the Spirit and see to just be in the Spirit of God refrains from even thinking of or about sin, because they are too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! busy thanking God and praising God for this through Jesus who made this possible by his death for new life to be received by the resurrection, just ask God and receive if you believe without any malice in mind and God knows who have malice and who do not, those without malice receive and Love as God loves
Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
So you say if it is willful sin or not willful, Again when is it not ever willful?
Ignoring truth that God did take away the sin of the whole world all the way back to Adam and Eve and all the way up to this very present moment, and not receiving this and thanking God for this one does not see the new life God wants to give you once one accepts that God has forgiven them, then when one receives this new Life in the Spirit and see to just be in the Spirit of God refrains from even thinking of or about sin, because they are too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! busy thanking God and praising God for this through Jesus who made this possible by his death for new life to be received by the resurrection, just ask God and receive if you believe without any malice in mind and God knows who have malice and who do not, those without malice receive and Love as God loves
Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
This entire thread started with this somewhat confusing question. Maybe we ought to address it rather than display controversy.
Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Whether Jew or Gentile, faith is the justifier. If one keeps the law of the Old Testament, and has the faith King David had, (approved by God) it doesn’t mean He had a stumbling block in his life because he kept the Mosaic Law.
Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
[SUP]30 [/SUP]What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
[SUP]32 [/SUP]Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Whether Jew or Gentile, faith is the justifier. If one keeps the law of the Old Testament, and has the faith King David had, (approved by God) it doesn’t mean He had a stumbling block in his life because he kept the Mosaic Law.
Actually, you gave an example of righteous works of the law, not works of faith. Loving your neighbor as yourself is the fulfillment of the law. It does not take faith to do this. Regardless of the reason, whether it be for the fear of the lord that is the beginning of wisdom or for love toward their neighbor, each are the works of the law.
Do you have another good story, only on works of faith?
I think I have yet to find one person give me an adequate example, aside from the ones written in Hebrews 11.
I find this to be somewhat disturbing.
The whole purpose for this thread was to differentiate between works of the law that do not effect your salvation, vs. works of faith, which do.
Also, guilt does not keep one in sin, unless you found that in scripture, which I doubt. Your guilt was your conscience speaking, which is the law written in your heart, and helps lead one to repentance, not to continue in sin. It also tells you that you did sin, and you know it as sin. And no, we cannot uphold all the law in our life without the Spirit of Christ in us to cause us to both will and do of His good pleasure.
I think you're missing the mark on this one, sir. There are varying kinds of works that the bible differentiates. One of these works is based on the law, another on God and His promises. Most see and understand the works of the law, but I am having difficulty finding some to have an understanding of the works of faith in God based on His promises/word.
You said I was getting warmer. Question, as long as you tell me I'm getting warmer, if the law is written on our hearts, where did it originate? The law that is. Taking these scriptures into account, is the law that is written on our hearts the same law that God gave to Moses? If so, that would be a "law of righteousness" properly seen as God intended, not the carnal. Having faith, and putting the Mosaic law in its proper working order, leads us to die daily as Paul says about himself after his faith was established.
Isaiah 63:10-14 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
Isaiah 63:10-14 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?
[SUP]12 [/SUP]That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name?
[SUP]13 [/SUP]That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?
[SUP]14 [/SUP]As a beast goeth down into the valley, the Spirit of the LORD caused him to rest: so didst thou lead thy people, to make thyself a glorious name.
Just a question concerning the law, not the Mosaic law but the law of our founding fathers in America. Do you think that our country would be better off if we would have kept that law, that was patterned after the Bible law in many respects. I'm not saying that this would make believers in Christ Jesus, just asking about enforcing the law and not legislating corruption like we have been doing for the last few decades. You may think that this question doesn't apply to the subject at hand, but I'm trying to lay a foundation to clarify an answer to the original question of this thread.