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Tintin
Guest
I think there's a bit of reverse-conceitedness in thinking that Babylon the Great is the Not So United States of America. I interpret Babylon the Great as just that - the great city of Babylon found in the Bible. It was known to be a city of sin.
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Shiloah
Guest
Well, the focus of some conspiracy theorists is to let people know right there in Israel if and when they rebuild that temple, the person that reinstitutes that sin offering may well be the antichrist. If that person denies Christ and has tremendous influence over the nations of this world, I'm sure every true Christian will see him for what he is. Also, surely to perform a sin offering that Jesus Himself already fulfilled in what once was a holy place would be an abomination before the Lord.
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talkwithme
Guest
I belive the babylon in revelations is more of a state of mind than anything, but some point to it as being the vatican, and or catholic faith itself.
Blimey!! I'm an American!!
How dare you state that America isn't the great whore!!
Ha, ha.....
Truth is there is a social whore that rides the beast,
and an economic whore, and a political whore......and a new age type spiritual whore.
(The beast is the same thing though........)
Betcha can't guess it. - (Hint) Daniel chapter 7 - what kingdom is vastly different from those which came before it?
- Enough so that it made Daniel physically ill for several days thinking on it?
- - - BLIMEY!!! (You'll never guess it so stop trying)
- - - - Whaaaaa!!! Blimey!!!
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Hoffco
Guest
I am new here and My PC is not working, so I have to visit the internet cafe to write a reply. my user name is Hoffco, because my father used to sell hoffco chain saws in the 50's. I worked all my life with trees and building and was a lay pastor for 40 plus yrs, in upstart New York. I WAS WIDOWED IN 07 AND TOOK A TRIP TO THE pHILIPPINES, THERE gOD GAVE ME A PHILIPPINE WIFE, SORRY CAPS, . We started a new church with a nursery school, I love my,our, new ministry here and plan to say the rest of my life. LORD WILLING. I wish to enter your discussion on conspiracy and corruption related to the Bible. As I read the Bible, I would have to say, Satan was the first to conspire to be like God and to introduce sin and corruption into heaven and the earth; and men followed. Sinful men, with Satan's help, have been carrying out God's plan for evil. On the other side, God, with the aid of His chosen few, called the Church of Christ,etc, are carrying out God's plan for good. IN THE END OF TIME ,SORRy CAPS, Jesus will raise all the dead, the good to eternal life and the bad to eternal death, for the lake of fire. After my PC gets fixed I will be free to add more, with proof texts from God's word. I will just say now, God is in full control of all things and for us to understand His ways we must be willing to submit to every teach in His Bible. All our reasoning must be WITH GOD through His work. All other sources are a part of the conspiracy. The only way to study the Bible is,to let the Bible teach us,and let "God be God". I have always used the grammatical, contextual, historical principle of interpretation. As I study the Bible passages, I am building my over all systematic theology, topic by topic. The Bible was written piece meal, a little here a little later, we have to put the pieces together, very carefully, to get the whole truth on each topic of the Bible, to form our sys, theo.. I am looking forward to our study together. God bless. Hoffco
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Hoffco
Guest
Good evening, it is 2am here in the Philippines and ,praise God, my PC is working. I will add some thoughts on eschatology.
Satan has so influenced our minds that most Bible teaching is going astray today, the futures events leading up to the return of Christ are playing out before our eyes, but there is much confusion on eschatology. Daniel had to close his book but Revelation is not a closed book. If we would be careful not to read too much or too little into Gods word we could understand it better. God is allowing delusive lies in the church because we are not willing to believe all He has revealed to us. Salvation is twisted today to be by "faith alone", "Justification alone", grace and law are not understood, Paul loved and kept the law of God, Rom. 7 Psa. 19 says the Law of God converts the soul. But preachers say, we are not under the Law of God, but under grace. Jesus never canceled the moral law of God, but lived it perfectly, and told us that if we didn't rightfully keep the law we would never see the kingdom of God. That is the teaching of the sermon on the mount. And Romans 2 says ,the law of God is written on heart of the born again gentile believer, vs. 15 and 29 their "heart" is circumcised. We need to interpret contextually, not according to our"church" dogma.
The key to eschatology is Israel, God has now returned His nation to their land and the stage is getting set for the rapture of the Church of Christ. Now we are waiting for the "man of sin" 2Thes.2:3. Please read 2thes 2 in its context, "our gathering to Him" rapture, "that day will not come until the falling away .. and the man of sin is revealed" and Rom.11:12-15, teaches, Israel's "fall" was,is, salvation for the gentiles, and Israel's "fullness" and "acceptance" will be the resurrection from the dead, Christ's return. God's call on Israel is "irrevocable" Rom.11:29. Jesus will return to His nation of Israel and save 144,000 of them.Rev.7:4.
Good night, God's bless you all. Hoffco
Satan has so influenced our minds that most Bible teaching is going astray today, the futures events leading up to the return of Christ are playing out before our eyes, but there is much confusion on eschatology. Daniel had to close his book but Revelation is not a closed book. If we would be careful not to read too much or too little into Gods word we could understand it better. God is allowing delusive lies in the church because we are not willing to believe all He has revealed to us. Salvation is twisted today to be by "faith alone", "Justification alone", grace and law are not understood, Paul loved and kept the law of God, Rom. 7 Psa. 19 says the Law of God converts the soul. But preachers say, we are not under the Law of God, but under grace. Jesus never canceled the moral law of God, but lived it perfectly, and told us that if we didn't rightfully keep the law we would never see the kingdom of God. That is the teaching of the sermon on the mount. And Romans 2 says ,the law of God is written on heart of the born again gentile believer, vs. 15 and 29 their "heart" is circumcised. We need to interpret contextually, not according to our"church" dogma.
The key to eschatology is Israel, God has now returned His nation to their land and the stage is getting set for the rapture of the Church of Christ. Now we are waiting for the "man of sin" 2Thes.2:3. Please read 2thes 2 in its context, "our gathering to Him" rapture, "that day will not come until the falling away .. and the man of sin is revealed" and Rom.11:12-15, teaches, Israel's "fall" was,is, salvation for the gentiles, and Israel's "fullness" and "acceptance" will be the resurrection from the dead, Christ's return. God's call on Israel is "irrevocable" Rom.11:29. Jesus will return to His nation of Israel and save 144,000 of them.Rev.7:4.
Good night, God's bless you all. Hoffco
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Hoffco
Guest
Good afternoon , here and good morning to my family and friends in New York and N,C.. I am learning to print out material from my PC. We just had a walk with our neighbor ,next door, and looked at their lots next to their home here in Davao city, Mindanao, Phil.. He is an army man, a good friend to have but they need guards and dogs all the time, to keep thieves away.
The army people,friends, took me to the hospital once. I love it here, like, 3,000 people near by, to witness to, very poor and the middle class, like we, also, but ever Americano is 'rich" compare to the poor here. Hoffco, be right back, need to go buy a male duck.
The army people,friends, took me to the hospital once. I love it here, like, 3,000 people near by, to witness to, very poor and the middle class, like we, also, but ever Americano is 'rich" compare to the poor here. Hoffco, be right back, need to go buy a male duck.
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Gifts
Guest
Well there are so many theories out there, most of them have got to be untrue. But regarding the premise of your counter argument. Humans seem to me to be kind of prone to deception and manipulation. A lot of times God gave Israel over to Persia, Babylon, wherever. It surely did work some purpose for God, but in the end they were pagans and their kings even claimed to be divine. I guess what I'm getting at is that it's not beyond God to permit(but not to condone or encourage) their evil actions, but to use them for his purposes.
And when the beast comes he will wield great authority here on earth, and tell people to worship himself. So in the future at least we will see the sort of dynamic you are suggesting does not exist. A situation where people are deceived en mass that is. But yeah in the end these conspiracies and whether or not you're aware of them is not going to make or break your salvation. Far better to have some vast knowledge of the scriptures than to have some vast knowledge of conspiracies.
And when the beast comes he will wield great authority here on earth, and tell people to worship himself. So in the future at least we will see the sort of dynamic you are suggesting does not exist. A situation where people are deceived en mass that is. But yeah in the end these conspiracies and whether or not you're aware of them is not going to make or break your salvation. Far better to have some vast knowledge of the scriptures than to have some vast knowledge of conspiracies.
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Gifts
Guest
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Hoffco
Guest
Hi Gifts, LOL. I thank you for your compliment, sincerely, I like to use a little humor to lighten my tough preaching against all the evil around me, and the evils thoughts I have toward those who oppose my biblical teaching,I have felt a lot of rejection for my stand on God's truth.
The reason my little finger keeps hitting the,cap lock, is, 30 yrs ago, I cut my left arm half off, in a chain saw accident. So, my left hand is partially crippled. I can not control it so well, but I praise God, He let me keep my hand.
It will be wonderful, after we are totally perfected and with our LORD JESUS, just to laugh together, and praise HIM, for how HE lead us all the way. The church is so divided today,but it has to be this way, because we are ,who we are, but, we will be perfected in that day, by the grace of God. In the mean time,lets be sober, yet, LOL. (laugh out loud)
It is hard to digest all that is said here, so I try to stay focused on God's word as I react, respond.
Hoffco , God bless you all
The reason my little finger keeps hitting the,cap lock, is, 30 yrs ago, I cut my left arm half off, in a chain saw accident. So, my left hand is partially crippled. I can not control it so well, but I praise God, He let me keep my hand.
It will be wonderful, after we are totally perfected and with our LORD JESUS, just to laugh together, and praise HIM, for how HE lead us all the way. The church is so divided today,but it has to be this way, because we are ,who we are, but, we will be perfected in that day, by the grace of God. In the mean time,lets be sober, yet, LOL. (laugh out loud)
It is hard to digest all that is said here, so I try to stay focused on God's word as I react, respond.
Hoffco , God bless you all
A conspiracy theorist, who proclaims to teach the Word of God, would take something like Babylon the Great and translate it to the 21st century! They would try to affix it with every known bad guy by translating their names to 666; while all the time trying to prove that the 7 heads of the Dragon are heads of state in the European Union! Warning the people of the world not to take the mark of the beast in their arm or head, this being a chip that is planted under the skin. While knowing at any time Gog and Magog 'whom they interpreted as Russia', could attack and destroy the Jews at any given moment; their proof being in the great oil wealth of the Arabs of the Islam faith! When all of a sudden 144,000 Jews the only righteous people take on 2 hundred million Chinese warriors!
This is something that a conspiracy theorist would do if they were put into a place of power in God's Church!
This is something that a conspiracy theorist would do if they were put into a place of power in God's Church!
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Hoffco
Guest
Hi, thank to Rickshafer, I reread the last half of Daniel,sorry, I can not figure out a lot of the details, as some try to. But
I get very excited over the end, Jesus gives us the final rule with Him. Of course, all nations are apart of Gods plan, Rev.7 the great multitude is of every tribe,tongue,nation; I think that is the Church of Jesus from all times, including, Adam and Eve, less the 144,000 Jews who are saved and left on earth at the time of the rapture. I am not a complete dispensationalist. The 144,000 Jews can not be world wide evangelists, with the multitude as their converts, because the 144,000 never get out of Israel, they are killed by the antichrist, as told us in Rev. 20:4 they refused the mark of the beast and were killed. All the martyrs have a special rapture at the end of the 70th week of Daniel; that is my "theory". For me, I see the Rapture in Rev.6:12-17. I lean to the pre-wrath Rap.
It is so exciting to see how God is working out the geo-political relationships of nations as He gets ready to send Jesus back to earth.
Meanwhile, back to bed, see you all,saints, on that great resurrection morning. Hoffco OH, ZONE, I would like to see some "REAL INFORMATION" . the Bible is my best source.
I get very excited over the end, Jesus gives us the final rule with Him. Of course, all nations are apart of Gods plan, Rev.7 the great multitude is of every tribe,tongue,nation; I think that is the Church of Jesus from all times, including, Adam and Eve, less the 144,000 Jews who are saved and left on earth at the time of the rapture. I am not a complete dispensationalist. The 144,000 Jews can not be world wide evangelists, with the multitude as their converts, because the 144,000 never get out of Israel, they are killed by the antichrist, as told us in Rev. 20:4 they refused the mark of the beast and were killed. All the martyrs have a special rapture at the end of the 70th week of Daniel; that is my "theory". For me, I see the Rapture in Rev.6:12-17. I lean to the pre-wrath Rap.
It is so exciting to see how God is working out the geo-political relationships of nations as He gets ready to send Jesus back to earth.
Meanwhile, back to bed, see you all,saints, on that great resurrection morning. Hoffco OH, ZONE, I would like to see some "REAL INFORMATION" . the Bible is my best source.
C'mon Zone! That's mean!
Hi Hoffco!!
I was referring to the seventh chapter in particular. It was the beast that was different from all the rest that made Daniel sick.
- (What 'kingdom' is completely different and more powerful than normal ones with borders?)
- - (Not hell, it is a 'country' that traffics in the souls of men)
- - - (It's basis is the root of all evil).
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Hoffco
Guest
Hi RickShafer, Thanks for your defense on my behalf.
And the note on Daniel 7. I think I know, from Daniel , who that kingdom WAS, pas. tense. It was the legs of iron, the Roman kingdom of Jesus day. Now, the big problem is who,what, is the Kingdom of the toes? Please, keep in mind, that much of Europe,USA and many others, were not mentioned, by name, in the Bible and 2,000 yrs of history is not mentioned. And , keep in mind, the old Roman Emp. went around the entire Med. sea. Part of it, We call, today, the Med.Union, which has about 10 members. Which is more likely to be the source of the "man of sin" , it is likely a Muslim who could make peace with the muslims and Jews. The Jews have said, "be he man or satan, we will accept him" The liberal Jews don't care who gives them peace. The militant Muslims will soon back themselves in to a dead end and cry out for a peace treaty, to give them time to develope their nucular bombs.
Allegory should not be used if the literal sense makes sense, Only God can interprete His allegory. Daniel is full of allegory interpreted by God. The Reform faith uses too much allegory, so they explain things away. The Fundamentalists. read into or detract from the Word of God. The reformers were great on salvation but silent or bad on eschatology. Every one I know ,is bad on Justification and the New Birth, only a few, preach the whole gospel. even John MacArthur is weak on his "salvation by faith alone". Please. remember, salvation involves every thing we have to do to be saved. In many sermons ,Mac Arthur says the whole package,from election to glorification, it is bad to teach a "faith only" ; James 2:24 condemns it "not by faith only" "justified by works" Back to esct. Rev. 20-21 tells of Jesus' earthly rule of 1,000 yrs of peace,
the reason why God will reinstitute the temple sacrifices is to point back to the finished work of Christ AND hE WILL MAKE THE UNSAVED NATIONS GO TO Jerusalem TO WORSHIP Jesus IN THE tEMPLE OF THE Jews ,TO HONOR hIS CHOSEN NATION.SORRY, MY CRIBPLED FINGER HIT THE CAP LOCK. If God once, set up a "false" way of worship,O.t. then, why can He not do it again? We dare not judge God's WORD. Remember:grammatical, contextual, historical interpretation. Hoffco
And the note on Daniel 7. I think I know, from Daniel , who that kingdom WAS, pas. tense. It was the legs of iron, the Roman kingdom of Jesus day. Now, the big problem is who,what, is the Kingdom of the toes? Please, keep in mind, that much of Europe,USA and many others, were not mentioned, by name, in the Bible and 2,000 yrs of history is not mentioned. And , keep in mind, the old Roman Emp. went around the entire Med. sea. Part of it, We call, today, the Med.Union, which has about 10 members. Which is more likely to be the source of the "man of sin" , it is likely a Muslim who could make peace with the muslims and Jews. The Jews have said, "be he man or satan, we will accept him" The liberal Jews don't care who gives them peace. The militant Muslims will soon back themselves in to a dead end and cry out for a peace treaty, to give them time to develope their nucular bombs. Allegory should not be used if the literal sense makes sense, Only God can interprete His allegory. Daniel is full of allegory interpreted by God. The Reform faith uses too much allegory, so they explain things away. The Fundamentalists. read into or detract from the Word of God. The reformers were great on salvation but silent or bad on eschatology. Every one I know ,is bad on Justification and the New Birth, only a few, preach the whole gospel. even John MacArthur is weak on his "salvation by faith alone". Please. remember, salvation involves every thing we have to do to be saved. In many sermons ,Mac Arthur says the whole package,from election to glorification, it is bad to teach a "faith only" ; James 2:24 condemns it "not by faith only" "justified by works" Back to esct. Rev. 20-21 tells of Jesus' earthly rule of 1,000 yrs of peace,
the reason why God will reinstitute the temple sacrifices is to point back to the finished work of Christ AND hE WILL MAKE THE UNSAVED NATIONS GO TO Jerusalem TO WORSHIP Jesus IN THE tEMPLE OF THE Jews ,TO HONOR hIS CHOSEN NATION.SORRY, MY CRIBPLED FINGER HIT THE CAP LOCK. If God once, set up a "false" way of worship,O.t. then, why can He not do it again? We dare not judge God's WORD. Remember:grammatical, contextual, historical interpretation. Hoffco
That's all good Hoffco.
I was speaking of the corporate state.
It is the only one that transcends borders.
Also, a corporation is a legal fiction. A non-souled entity - like a beast.
That's why you can buy something in China with your American credit card.
Or anywhere else with a credit card issued in any other nation, (as long as the proprietors accept it and the card is in good standing).
- - It's called the commercial system, or beast system.
I was speaking of the corporate state.
It is the only one that transcends borders.
Also, a corporation is a legal fiction. A non-souled entity - like a beast.
That's why you can buy something in China with your American credit card.
Or anywhere else with a credit card issued in any other nation, (as long as the proprietors accept it and the card is in good standing).
- - It's called the commercial system, or beast system.
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Hoffco
Guest
Hi to all. I will reply to RickSahfer, but I hope I can teach everyone a good, absolutely critical, principle of interpretation.
There is only one honest way to interpret any authors work, that is ,to let the author, interpret his own work. If you know the author ,you need to interview him/her and ask, what did you mean? Since we can not interview God, we must do the needed task, be very careful to discover what God means,by allowing His book to interpret it self. Thus, grammatical, contextual historical interpretation. The context of every verse is the whole Bible. First the passage, then the book, then the whole Bible. If the passage is allegorical,we must allow God to give His own meaning, We are not being honest if we pretend to make a personal meaning, that is the Devils tactic,just make up any meaning that suits our purpose. 2Pet.1:21-22 says "...no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy Spirit. " We must , first, analysis, look at each part, and then synthesis, putting all the parts ,that relate, into a comprehensive. meaningful whole. we must put it together according to the topics.
By studying each passage ,we build our biblical theology; then we takes the parts and build our systematical theology.
So. lets look at Dan. 7:19-21 Who is the fourth beast? "which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful..teeth of iron...devoured,... trampled the residue with his feet....ten horns...the other horn...three fell...the same horn was making war against the saints,...
v22 until the Ancient of Days came... the time for the saints to possess the kingdom." vs 23-25 reiterates this truth of the fourth kingdom, "the ten horns are ten kings that arise from this kingdom...another... subdues three kings...persecute the saints...for a time and times and half a time." this kingdom,"shall be given to the ..saints of the Most High...His kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom.. This is the end..."
analysis done on this passage, but there are many more passages analyze before we make a judgement as to who/what this kingdom represents. Let me make an educated guess, it is the Roman empire of Jesus day, that is enlarged,or stretched out to include a further development of itself in the centuries to come ,after Jesus, because in the end the saints of God, the saved,Jews and gentiles, christians, , rule the world, this present earth, for 1,000 yrs, with Jesus our King.
I need to stop for tonight, more tomorrow. Hoffco ps, to RickShafer, 2,000 yrs of the "commercial system" is a part of this fourth kingdom.
There is only one honest way to interpret any authors work, that is ,to let the author, interpret his own work. If you know the author ,you need to interview him/her and ask, what did you mean? Since we can not interview God, we must do the needed task, be very careful to discover what God means,by allowing His book to interpret it self. Thus, grammatical, contextual historical interpretation. The context of every verse is the whole Bible. First the passage, then the book, then the whole Bible. If the passage is allegorical,we must allow God to give His own meaning, We are not being honest if we pretend to make a personal meaning, that is the Devils tactic,just make up any meaning that suits our purpose. 2Pet.1:21-22 says "...no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the holy Spirit. " We must , first, analysis, look at each part, and then synthesis, putting all the parts ,that relate, into a comprehensive. meaningful whole. we must put it together according to the topics.
By studying each passage ,we build our biblical theology; then we takes the parts and build our systematical theology.
So. lets look at Dan. 7:19-21 Who is the fourth beast? "which was different from all the others, exceedingly dreadful..teeth of iron...devoured,... trampled the residue with his feet....ten horns...the other horn...three fell...the same horn was making war against the saints,...
v22 until the Ancient of Days came... the time for the saints to possess the kingdom." vs 23-25 reiterates this truth of the fourth kingdom, "the ten horns are ten kings that arise from this kingdom...another... subdues three kings...persecute the saints...for a time and times and half a time." this kingdom,"shall be given to the ..saints of the Most High...His kingdom shall be an everlasting kingdom.. This is the end..."
analysis done on this passage, but there are many more passages analyze before we make a judgement as to who/what this kingdom represents. Let me make an educated guess, it is the Roman empire of Jesus day, that is enlarged,or stretched out to include a further development of itself in the centuries to come ,after Jesus, because in the end the saints of God, the saved,Jews and gentiles, christians, , rule the world, this present earth, for 1,000 yrs, with Jesus our King.
I need to stop for tonight, more tomorrow. Hoffco ps, to RickShafer, 2,000 yrs of the "commercial system" is a part of this fourth kingdom.
Well done Hoffco.
The beast system is what it is.
Corporations started in Rome also.
Also prophecies tend to be dual fulfillment.
But, I hate to get too far off the O.P. topic - conspiracies and the Bible.
(Notice no theory, was Jesus death a conspiracy theory, or a conspiracy fact?
- Sleep well sweet prince.
The beast system is what it is.
Corporations started in Rome also.
Also prophecies tend to be dual fulfillment.
But, I hate to get too far off the O.P. topic - conspiracies and the Bible.
(Notice no theory, was Jesus death a conspiracy theory, or a conspiracy fact?
- Sleep well sweet prince.
H
Hoffco
Guest
Good morning, thank you LORD, for another peaceful day in "paradise" Golden Hills Village,LOL. We have a "cult" leader here, that says, Davao City is"The New Jerusalem" LOL. He is building it now, a beautiful place,I want to visit it. While I am "dreaming",let me give a "call" to some one who is retired, has money to invest in God's word, tired of wicked Amer., ask God for a call to this very needy work with me, investing all your worldly goods for God in Davao,it is so rewarding and fun, I have only faced death twice in 5 yrs..
OK, the question at hand, the ans. yes, Christ's death was a part of Satan's ,age old conspiracy, to derail God's plan of redemption. Daniel tells of the angel,God sent to help him out of depression over the wicked 4th kingdom, the angel was held up by Satan's evil angel,It is,was, the prince of Persia,(today's Iran) ; God's angel comforted Daniel and left him to fight the prince of Persia again. Gabriel and Michael also are in Daniel's visions. Heb.1:7,11 tell of God's angels who help us.
Later I will give more from Daniel. Prophecy is so exciting! Praise God. Hoffco ps. Jesus' death was a "fact", a part of Satan's conspriacy
OK, the question at hand, the ans. yes, Christ's death was a part of Satan's ,age old conspiracy, to derail God's plan of redemption. Daniel tells of the angel,God sent to help him out of depression over the wicked 4th kingdom, the angel was held up by Satan's evil angel,It is,was, the prince of Persia,(today's Iran) ; God's angel comforted Daniel and left him to fight the prince of Persia again. Gabriel and Michael also are in Daniel's visions. Heb.1:7,11 tell of God's angels who help us.
Later I will give more from Daniel. Prophecy is so exciting! Praise God. Hoffco ps. Jesus' death was a "fact", a part of Satan's conspriacy