S
Shiloah
Guest
Boy, this is an interesting and educational thread. I'm not only learning about the Hebrew movement, I'm learning from example. 
Is the Hebrew Roots Movement a cult?
- Thread starter just-me
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The Judaizing Elements of the Messianic Movement
Apr 6th, 2012 by whtt
Christians are being hyped on the idea that Jesus was a Jew. In that effort, some Christians have gone over the edge in promoting "Juda-ishness." Cesar Ahron, a Jewish convert to Christianity, offers a constructive critique of the Messianic movement, which is made up largely of non-Jews acting out Judaism. This classic and timely interview was conducted by WHTT founder Chuck Carlson in 2000. Joining Cesar in this interview is his friend and fellow Jewish convert, Benzion Melechson.
WHTT
[url]http://whtt.podbean.com/
Apr 6th, 2012 by whtt
Christians are being hyped on the idea that Jesus was a Jew. In that effort, some Christians have gone over the edge in promoting "Juda-ishness." Cesar Ahron, a Jewish convert to Christianity, offers a constructive critique of the Messianic movement, which is made up largely of non-Jews acting out Judaism. This classic and timely interview was conducted by WHTT founder Chuck Carlson in 2000. Joining Cesar in this interview is his friend and fellow Jewish convert, Benzion Melechson.
WHTT
[url]http://whtt.podbean.com/
from: JEWS FOR JESUS
The Jewish Roots Movement: Flowers and Thorns
Written By: Stephen Katz
Wednesday, February 28, 2001
As Jewish believers, we often encourage Gentile Christians to learn about the Jewish roots of their faith. Many benefit from the insights they gain from these connections.
However, a growing segment of believers are demonstrating an excessive interest in their Jewish roots, which can be harmful to their spiritual health.
The Hebraic Roots or Jewish Roots movement refers to various organizations with a common emphasis on recovering the original" Jewishness of Christianity. This recovery comes through studying the Bible in its Jewish context, observing the Torah, keeping the Sabbath and festivals, avoiding the "paganism" of Christianity, affirming the existence of original Hebrew language gospels and, in some cases, denigrating the Greek text of the New Testament. Writers such as Roy Blizzard, David Bivin, Brad Young and Robert Lindsay have given much impetus to this movement.
A proliferation of teachers, ministries and institutions associated with the Jewish/Hebraic roots movement has a growing presence on the Internet. Consequently, many believers are intrigued. In trying to understand the movement, we find a certain fuzziness that makes it difficult to characterize it by any one set of doctrines. Some organizations associated with the movement offer statements of faith that are evangelical in their understanding of salvation. Others are way off the mark.
Pastor Ken Garrison, Director of the Tsemach Institute for Biblical Studies, wrote a book titled Hebraic Roots, which states that the Church, in straying from its Hebraic heritage, has fallen into error. Further, he claims that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity must be rejected as unscriptural. Roy Blizzard, more widely known than Garrison, comes close to rejecting the inerrancy of Scripture and seems to hold to an aberrant, if not heretical, view of the Trinity, according to the Christian Research Institute.1
If you enter messianic chatrooms you may well encounter people who describe the Trinity as a Gentile invention of the Nicene Council. This is a gross misunderstanding—if not gross ignorance—of church history. Since Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each described as God in Scripture, it also undermines God's Word to dismiss the doctrine of the Trinity as a man-made invention. Both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures provide the foundation for understanding God's triune nature. The Jewish writers of the New Testament expressed truth about the deity of Messiah based upon their grasp of the Jewish Bible and their experience with Y'shua......
The Jewish Roots Movement: Flowers and Thorns - Jews for Jesus
okay?
JEWS who are Christians are WARNING people this movement can be harmful to spiritual health.
are they lying?
are they Hellenized beyond hope?
do they know what the dangers are?
The Jewish Roots Movement: Flowers and Thorns
Written By: Stephen Katz
Wednesday, February 28, 2001
As Jewish believers, we often encourage Gentile Christians to learn about the Jewish roots of their faith. Many benefit from the insights they gain from these connections.
However, a growing segment of believers are demonstrating an excessive interest in their Jewish roots, which can be harmful to their spiritual health.
The Hebraic Roots or Jewish Roots movement refers to various organizations with a common emphasis on recovering the original" Jewishness of Christianity. This recovery comes through studying the Bible in its Jewish context, observing the Torah, keeping the Sabbath and festivals, avoiding the "paganism" of Christianity, affirming the existence of original Hebrew language gospels and, in some cases, denigrating the Greek text of the New Testament. Writers such as Roy Blizzard, David Bivin, Brad Young and Robert Lindsay have given much impetus to this movement.
A proliferation of teachers, ministries and institutions associated with the Jewish/Hebraic roots movement has a growing presence on the Internet. Consequently, many believers are intrigued. In trying to understand the movement, we find a certain fuzziness that makes it difficult to characterize it by any one set of doctrines. Some organizations associated with the movement offer statements of faith that are evangelical in their understanding of salvation. Others are way off the mark.
Pastor Ken Garrison, Director of the Tsemach Institute for Biblical Studies, wrote a book titled Hebraic Roots, which states that the Church, in straying from its Hebraic heritage, has fallen into error. Further, he claims that the doctrine of the Holy Trinity must be rejected as unscriptural. Roy Blizzard, more widely known than Garrison, comes close to rejecting the inerrancy of Scripture and seems to hold to an aberrant, if not heretical, view of the Trinity, according to the Christian Research Institute.1
If you enter messianic chatrooms you may well encounter people who describe the Trinity as a Gentile invention of the Nicene Council. This is a gross misunderstanding—if not gross ignorance—of church history. Since Father, Son and Holy Spirit are each described as God in Scripture, it also undermines God's Word to dismiss the doctrine of the Trinity as a man-made invention. Both the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures provide the foundation for understanding God's triune nature. The Jewish writers of the New Testament expressed truth about the deity of Messiah based upon their grasp of the Jewish Bible and their experience with Y'shua......
The Jewish Roots Movement: Flowers and Thorns - Jews for Jesus
okay?
JEWS who are Christians are WARNING people this movement can be harmful to spiritual health.
are they lying?
are they Hellenized beyond hope?
do they know what the dangers are?
T
Torah
Guest
Are you absolutely sure we are not to keep "the law" (aka Torah)? I can show you over 10 examples of Paul, Peter, etc. keeping the Torah after the resurrection.
The Renewed Covenant (aka New Testament) is replete with examples proving that Paul, the disciples and Gentile converts were all keeping the Mosaic Law after the Resurrection.
I Corinthians 5:7-8 7 “Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.”
Why is Paul instructing Gentile converts on how to keep the Passover Feast? Isn’t that part of the Mosaic Law that was nailed to the cross?
I Corinthians 10:16 “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ?”
The “cup of blessing” is a toast in the Passover Seder meal. Corinth was a prosperous, immoral and pagan city whose Christian church was dominated by Gentile converts. How and why do these Gentile converts know about the Passover celebration if they are not to keep the feasts?
Acts 6:11-14 Then they secretly persuaded some men to say, "We have heard Stephen speak words of blasphemy against Moses and against YHWH." 12 So they stirred up the people and the elders and the teachers of the law. They seized Stephen and brought him before the Sanhedrin. 13 They produced false witnesses, who testified, "This fellow never stops speaking against this holy place and against the law. 14 For we have heard him say that this Yahushua of Nazareth will destroy this place and change the customs Moses handed down to us."
For these people to be labeled as false witnesses what they are testifying to must be false. In other words, Yahushua of Nazareth did not change the customs of Moses.
Acts 15:19-21 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: [SUP]20 [/SUP]But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
There is a lot going on here. Paul is giving these Gentile converts “the heart of Torah” as a foundation. “The Heart of Torah” is Leviticus 17-18. It is the physical middle of Torah and also provides the foundation for “holiness”. Anyone who engages in idolatry, sexual immorality or forbidden foods is “cut off” from the community. These babes in Messiah are given very basic Torah instructions to follow because (as verse 21 connotes) “When you go to synagogue every 7[SUP]th[/SUP] day Sabbath you will learn much more Mosaic law then.”
Acts 16:20 And brought them to the magistrates, saying, These men, being Jews, do exceedingly trouble our city, 16:21 And teach customs, which are not lawful for us to receive, neither to observe, being Romans.
Everyone knows what customs the Jews are known for teaching, they were not teaching xmas and sun-day Sabbath.
Acts18:21 But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if YHWH will. And he sailed from Ephesus.
Paul must keep the feast because it is a commandment, and being a Torah obedient disciple he attends the feast
Acts 20:6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of unleavened bread, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode seven days.
Why would Paul be concerned or even mention a Festival that was “done away with” in 30AD?
Acts 20:16 For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.
Repeat: Why would Paul be concerned or even mention a Festival that was “done away with” in 30AD?
Acts 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the Eloah of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Torah and in the prophets:
Paul under oath tells us point blank that he worships YHWH by following all that is in the Torah after the Resurrection.
Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the Torah of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
Paul again testifies that he honored Torah after the Resurrection.
Acts 24:5-6 “For we have found this man (Paul) a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes: Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.”
The Nazarenes are Jews that believed Yahushua was the Messiah. Epiphanius, an early church member, has this to say about them:
"We shall now especially consider heretics who call themselves Nazarenes; they are mainly Jews and nothing else. They make use not only of the New Testament, but they also use in a way the Old Testament of the Jews. For they do not forbid the books of the Law, the Prophets and the Writings...so that they are approved of by the Jews, from whom the Nazarenes do not differ in anything, and they do profess all the dogmas pertaining to the prescriptions of the Law and the customs of the Jews, except they believe in Messiah. They preach that there is but One YHWH and His Son Yahushua. They are learned in the Hebrew language, for they, like the Jews, read the whole Law, then the Prophets...They differ from the Jews because they believe in Messiah, and from the Christians in that they are to this day bound to the Jewish rites such as circumcision, the Sabbath and other ceremonies."
According to the Scriptures, Paul is the ringleader of this sect of Nazarenes. Paul kept and taught Torah.
Even in the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] Century people could easily misunderstand Paul according to Peter:
2 Peter 3:15-16 “And account that the longsuffering of our Master is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.”
You can see that “iniquity” (lawlessness, without Torah) must have begun very early in the church after the stoning of Stephen. The separation of Gentile believers from the Torah was aided by growing anti-Semitism and after the Destruction of the Temple in 70AD.
Peace
Perhaps it started with the Syrophoenician gal who againt the law of Moses with her issue of blood went out in the public so that by FAITH she could just touch the hem of Jesus. The law had no healing power but by faith she transgressed the Law to reach that which was Greater.
Paul and the Law...(just a few out of many more)
For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
(Gal 2:19-20)
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
(Rom 7:4)
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
(Php 3:8-9)
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
(1Co 15:56)
And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
(Gal 3:12)
S
Shiloah
Guest
Boy, this is an interesting and educational thread. I'm not only learning about the Hebrew movement, I'm learning from example.
Now, if I can just put into practice what I'm learning. Haha.
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Torah,
From one newbie to another, RedTent is actually a pretty strong proponent of keeping the Torah. Take a look at some of her other posts.
Blessings,
Matt
I need to correct myself on this (my turn missing the mark), it was not the Syrophoenician woman but 'a (certain) woman'
(Matt.9:20, Mk. 5:25, Lu 8:43).
Compare with ...
And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.
(Lev 15:19)
And if a woman have an issue of her blood many days out of the time of her separation, or if it run beyond the time of her separation; all the days of the issue of her uncleanness shall be as the days of her separation: she shall be unclean.
(Lev 15:25)
S
Shiloah
Guest
That's about menstruation. If a woman didn't stop that for all those years, well... she'd would have made it for all those years.
P.S. Maybe she had hemophilia.
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B
Brighthouse
Guest
HI Just Me So many quote verse 24 of gal 3 a sister did this yesterday in chat,ah but she forgot verse 25 after it!!! Example bro. I give you a test to take in school, and you fulfill the taking of that test,do you go back to it ever again? No, No point!! It has been fulfilled, you await a new test,or in our case our New covenant!!
A better test set upon much better promises!! now this test when you take it, you know something you did not know in the last test!! YOU PASS!!! The last test was based upon how good you are and how smart YOU ARE!! This test has already been passed by Jesus himself!! YOU WIN before you even take it!!! All you have to do with this test is believe it!!
How great and much better is that??? Why do people wish to go back to retake a test, they cannot pass?? I have no idea bro!!I sure am not! Now about your reference to Moses! take a look at hebrews 3!! Jesus is superior to Moses! 1-6( verse 3!) Moses was in his house!!
Not Jesus in Moses house bro hehe) in verses 7-19 what we see here is the catastrophe of UNBELIEF!!! Why brother as a believer in Jesus would any wish to take second best??verse 4 God is the builder bro.Not Moses. verse 5 now Moses was faithful!! verse 6 BUT!!! Christ was faithful as a Son OVER!!! HIS House! whose house!! ready??? WE ARE!!!
IF!!!!! we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope FIRM!!! Until the end! The only codition for the believer is to believe bro. i do! I judge not others, I really do not care what they choose to believe!I am only responsible for mine! But if someone asks i sure do wish to not just tell them, but show them! I know this was very important for me! Few of us brother have belief,even fewer know why they believe! Blessing bro!
A better test set upon much better promises!! now this test when you take it, you know something you did not know in the last test!! YOU PASS!!! The last test was based upon how good you are and how smart YOU ARE!! This test has already been passed by Jesus himself!! YOU WIN before you even take it!!! All you have to do with this test is believe it!!
How great and much better is that??? Why do people wish to go back to retake a test, they cannot pass?? I have no idea bro!!I sure am not! Now about your reference to Moses! take a look at hebrews 3!! Jesus is superior to Moses! 1-6( verse 3!) Moses was in his house!!
Not Jesus in Moses house bro hehe) in verses 7-19 what we see here is the catastrophe of UNBELIEF!!! Why brother as a believer in Jesus would any wish to take second best??verse 4 God is the builder bro.Not Moses. verse 5 now Moses was faithful!! verse 6 BUT!!! Christ was faithful as a Son OVER!!! HIS House! whose house!! ready??? WE ARE!!!
IF!!!!! we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope FIRM!!! Until the end! The only codition for the believer is to believe bro. i do! I judge not others, I really do not care what they choose to believe!I am only responsible for mine! But if someone asks i sure do wish to not just tell them, but show them! I know this was very important for me! Few of us brother have belief,even fewer know why they believe! Blessing bro!
S
Shiloah
Guest
Well I for one can't claim I've perfected anything. I'm in the process, or Christ is in the process of making me perfect? I get up everyday, pick up my cross and follow Him? This obviously means I strive to live my life free of sin doing good in the name of Christ for the purpose of bringing God the glory. Right? Keeping the commandments Christ told me to keep is what this is about. Love the Lord with all my might and love my neighbor as myself on which all the commandments hang. They're all there. It's a complete package.
Those that endure to the end will be saved? Don't know about you, but my end hasn't happened yet.
The commentaries I've read say that any type of vaginal bleeding is considered 'unclean'.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
This is correct.
Not only did she sin, But she also caused Christ to become unclean according to the law.
Yet God healed her in her sin. Amazing isnt it. Alot of people would say she should have suffered by punishment for her sin. God has different ways, which most can not understand. He is the God of mercy, otherwise we would all be doomed!
The sanctifying power of faith... the law kills, but the spirit gives life...
Yes,I don't recall any being healed because they 'kept the commandments (actually the rich young ruler got turned away despite his honorable effort) but all were healed due to faith. Gal 3:5
Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
I agree
Deuteronomy 6:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Leviticus 19:18 (KJV)
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
I am not the bearer of bad tidings. This is the law. We only can fulfill it through Christ Jesus. So these scriptures make the New and the Old as one in Christ.
This can be related to sowing the seed of the Word, and the Woman being the church, or the ground in the parable of the sower and the seed. Sowing the seed during the wrong season will be in vain.