Attending Services as a Guest vs Membership
- Thread starter Shyness
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J
How is joing a church ''denominationalism''. I happen to personally be a reformed congregationalist meaning I believe in the autonomy of the local church thank you very much so do not throw around terms like mud unless you know what they mean. If you are not a member of a church then you are not being held accountable to your pastor because he is NOT your pastor even if you have been attending faithfully for decades. Like a great baptist once said ''I would never join a church that wouldn't throw me out if I earned it''. Then again most churches do not practice church discipline anymore but its a New testament and historic protestant, catholic and orthodox practice practice and we need a recovery of it. Evangelical churches look like ,in practice, churches that are the furthest than the church of the NT even if on paper their theology is right.
J
Well that is irrevelt to the issue of membership. God commands us to be held accountable under elders in the local church. No local church is perfect and frankly I think local churches ought to have some sort of non-forced accountability like the SBC system is perfectly legtimate. But membership benefits (not like a club) at least in reformed circles are very useful. It seals the communal aspect to the christian life and stops the american individualism.
J
God has given elders the stewardship over the church even though Christ is ultimately the head of it. When believers refuse to listen to a pastor who is not teaching heresy or sinning it is as if they are disobeying Christ Himself for they have been given the calling by both Christ and the local church.
Most pastors are self-appointed or appointed by religious institutions of man, not God. Most weild authority over their "flock" (which is not theres but Christ's), with a whip and a stick, being authoritarian, controlling, manipulative. Add any false doctrine they believe to that, and that little flock then becomes more like a sect or cult. Pastors need to be teaching their flock how to stand on their own two feet and feed themselves and come under the authority of Christ for themselves. This idea of a pastor being a go-between Christ and His flock is not right. This idea of one guy out the front and everyone else sitting on their behind is an insult to God's giftings of each individual member in the congregation. Who are led to believe by the pastor that all they can really do is serve cups of tea or put out chairs. These churches are modelled after HEad (Christ) - little head (pastor) - congregation. Rather than what scripture teaches it is - Head (Christ) - bodily member (eye), - bodily member (arm), leg, mouth, nose etc, where the pastor is but one member of the same body as the congregation.
That's why you get pastors who say you can't do this or can't do that unless you've done this or done that, such as the example someone gave aboutnot being able to usher due to not being a church member. Apparently believing in Christ and living for Christ is not enough!
That's why you get pastors who say you can't do this or can't do that unless you've done this or done that, such as the example someone gave aboutnot being able to usher due to not being a church member. Apparently believing in Christ and living for Christ is not enough!
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There is nothing in Scripture about pastors being any sort of little or lesser 'head' over the flock, when Christ is the only Head the body has.
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
If you look at the order Paul gave in the church, who is in the first place and who is in the second - pastors aren't even on the list:
1Co 12:28 In the church God has put all in place: in the first place apostles, in the second place prophets, and in the third place teachers; then those who perform miracles, followed by those who are given the power to heal or to help others or to direct them or to speak in strange tongues.
Who is of most value (not authoritarian importance) to the church, is dependent upon what gifts they have. Not what bible college they went to, and not what degrees or experiencing in running a church or leadership skills they have. This kind of leadership is wordly, and nothing like the leadership of shepherding in the bible.
1Co 12:18 As it is, however, God put every different part in the body just as he wanted it to be.
And sheep of God listen to the great shepherd Jesus, not the pastor:
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me.
It does not say "My sheep hear their pastor's voice, I know them and they follow the pastor which I appointed over them".
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the church, who is the Beginning, the First-born from the dead, that He may be pre-eminent in all things.
If you look at the order Paul gave in the church, who is in the first place and who is in the second - pastors aren't even on the list:
1Co 12:28 In the church God has put all in place: in the first place apostles, in the second place prophets, and in the third place teachers; then those who perform miracles, followed by those who are given the power to heal or to help others or to direct them or to speak in strange tongues.
Who is of most value (not authoritarian importance) to the church, is dependent upon what gifts they have. Not what bible college they went to, and not what degrees or experiencing in running a church or leadership skills they have. This kind of leadership is wordly, and nothing like the leadership of shepherding in the bible.
1Co 12:18 As it is, however, God put every different part in the body just as he wanted it to be.
And sheep of God listen to the great shepherd Jesus, not the pastor:
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice. I know them, and they follow me.
It does not say "My sheep hear their pastor's voice, I know them and they follow the pastor which I appointed over them".
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J
Do you by any chance listen to Harold Kamping? Many persons understand ''Prophet'' here to refer to the office of what we call pastor. And in case you have not figured it out. 1 tim. 3 is all about qualitications for eldership or pastor. It is just in these modern times that we just think we ought to have one of two special elders (which we call the pastor) whom we pay and rely on most. But the New testament example is that of a plurality of elders (search elder) in which all are equally capable of teaching but it just makes sense to have one or two for special reasons in the post-roman world. When u didn't have to worry about persecution the plurality of elders was important.
Funny thing here:
At your work place.. you know.. you have a payroll of membership.. you have performance measures.. can have position terminated if you aren't doing a good job.
This is normal.. acceptable..
So how should a christian assembly be different?
Having a faithful assembly committed to Jesus is part of what Paul writes about in all His letters to different churches. How will this be set about in doing? How ill this be measured?
My own church is having some issue with this now because our recent pastor has set out to plant another church.. and so is no longer a member of our church.. so a few of the things we put in place with him there are now gone as far as accountability goes. This has led to confusion over expectations from leadership.. confusion over membership requirements and some misunderstanding among members.
An assembly that has members and visitors? And requirements for that membership? Is one that tries to be accountable to Jesus as the Head of their assembly.
It's about loving Jesus to have an assembly that is built up in discipline and service to Him.
At your work place.. you know.. you have a payroll of membership.. you have performance measures.. can have position terminated if you aren't doing a good job.
This is normal.. acceptable..
So how should a christian assembly be different?
Having a faithful assembly committed to Jesus is part of what Paul writes about in all His letters to different churches. How will this be set about in doing? How ill this be measured?
My own church is having some issue with this now because our recent pastor has set out to plant another church.. and so is no longer a member of our church.. so a few of the things we put in place with him there are now gone as far as accountability goes. This has led to confusion over expectations from leadership.. confusion over membership requirements and some misunderstanding among members.
An assembly that has members and visitors? And requirements for that membership? Is one that tries to be accountable to Jesus as the Head of their assembly.
It's about loving Jesus to have an assembly that is built up in discipline and service to Him.
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