Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?

[just-me]

finally. As I said before, be careful using the words like "must" and "requirements" for when you use these words. In reality, you are saying they must be done or else ( we will lose, or not get salvation) maybe try to use different word choices?

I really don't dispute what you say as far as terms are concerned, but the reason I use the words "must" points out the beauty in our Savior Christ Jesus. God is absolute without turning. He says keep my commandments and it will go well for you. We know our failures being unable to do that in every respect, and He wants us to see ourselves that way also. I could also then use the word "driven" like being on the road with the schoolmaster, as we have discussed before. I see those words as pointing out the beauty in Christ, for then we see the gravity of God's absoluteness, for a lack of a better term. Then I see the beauty of "we absolutely must have Jesus as a propitiation for our short comings and seen failures through His Word. All of them are taken and killed with Christ. Concerning keeping the feasts, they are times that God has set before His people to remember His mercy, and love toward us. I don't keep the feasts in a physical way, but so far, I know that I should remember what He has done for my family in retrospect. I think it's important to remember however. Some think it's important, but I certainly don't see any wrong in doing it physically either. If I felt it was important, I would also do those things that some call rituals, but if it was just a form and fashion it wouldn't mean anything at all. Paul kept the law better than I will ever do since he knew about all that because of his upbringing. Hope that makes sense.

Galatians 2:20-21 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

 

[homwardbound]

Great!! And the Colossians scripture you posted reminded me of another one in the same book.

Colossians 1:12-18 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[SUP]16 [/SUP]For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

I see something here that might interest others as well as it interests me. Jesus being the creator of all things obviously created everything, from the beginning of time, clear through to the New Testament. I think that Jesus gave the law to Moses. what do you think about that?

John 17:4-5 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Good point

Three parts different forms, kind of like Ice, water and steam, 3 forms, yet all water
God, Son, Holy Spirit all three one, Yes God gave the Law to show us our inability to obey it perfectly, so when one sees they can't then their need fro Christ is increased, if one thirsts and hungers for righteousness

 

[homwardbound]

Hebrews 10:26 "for if we sin WIllfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins.

I John 3:4 "whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 3:24-26 "being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God has set forth to be a propitation through faith in His blood, to declare His righteousness for the remission of sins that are PAST, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time His righteousness: that He might be just, and the justified of him which believeth in Jesus.

If we believe the plain and simple (a child can understand) words of the NT scriptures, how can one deny the commandments in the Torah have ceased?

It is not that they have ceased, the Law of Moses has a Job, and it's Job to show us, flesh that when it flows through us we can't do it as in perfection, and this shows one their need for Christ
Hebrews 8:7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another.

[h=3]Hebrews 9:15-17[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

1. Hebrews 9:16
   [ The Mediator’s Death Necessary ] For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
   
2. Hebrews 9:17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives.
   
   [h=3]Hebrews 7:11-12[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
   
   [h=3]Need for a New Priesthood[/h][SUP]11 [/SUP]Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? [SUP]12 [/SUP]For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
   
   

 

[homwardbound]

So whatever you do don't try to keep them?

Rather up hold them as Holy, good, perfect and correct, kniwing anytime that they flow through flesh and blood I am weak and can't perform it
[h=3]Romans 3:31[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

It is not the Law that is cursed it is flesh and blood, and the two just do not mix, So Christ took this weakness in the flesh and killed it at the death, for us, if we will see this and agree with God, then God will raise one up from the dead to be alive in the Spirit of God as he already did Jesus, his one and only Son that was perfect in the flesh. No other flesh will ever please God the Father. All sin is condemned to the flesh romans 8:3

 

[john832]

No you didn't. And neither did john832. Please read this chapter again in full. Please


Hebrews 8

[SUP]7[/SUP]For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But God found fault with the people and said[SUP][b][/SUP]:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant
with the people of Israel
and with the people of Judah.

I like the way you highlighted in bright red and large letters, but you should have continued it for one more sentence...

But God found fault with the people and said

But then again, you would like to ignore the part where the problem was NOT with the Covenant, it was with the people.

 

[john832]

Rather up hold them as Holy, good, perfect and correct, kniwing anytime that they flow through flesh and blood I am weak and can't perform it
Romans 3:31

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

It is not the Law that is cursed it is flesh and blood, and the two just do not mix, So Christ took this weakness in the flesh and killed it at the death, for us, if we will see this and agree with God, then God will raise one up from the dead to be alive in the Spirit of God as he already did Jesus, his one and only Son that was perfect in the flesh. No other flesh will ever please God the Father. All sin is condemned to the flesh romans 8:3

It is our rotten human nature under the sway of the prince of the power of the air that is the problem. But if one can blame the Law then they do not have to admit that the real problem is not the person, himself. But God promises to convert us and help us conquer through the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Kind of like a drug problem, one can either legalize drugs (do away with the Law) and it is no longer a crime or one can have his nature changed such that he no longer uses drugs (be converted by the Holy Spirit).

 

[just-me]

It is our rotten human nature under the sway of the prince of the power of the air that is the problem. But if one can blame the Law then they do not have to admit that the real problem is not the person, himself. But God promises to convert us and help us conquer through the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Kind of like a drug problem, one can either legalize drugs (do away with the Law) and it is no longer a crime or one can have his nature changed such that he no longer uses drugs (be converted by the Holy Spirit).

I really liked the way you put that. It's like OH NO! DON”T SHOW ME THAT!

Hebrews 4:1 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.


And then we cover our spiritual eyes and make excuse after excuse so we don’t have to look in the mirror, and remember what manner of person we are.

James 1:22-25 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[zone]

I like the way you highlighted in bright red and large letters, but you should have continued it for one more sentence...

But God found fault with the people and said

But then again, you would like to ignore the part where the problem was NOT with the Covenant, it was with the people.

uh, no....he's never said the problem was with the Covenant.
it was with the people. that's what God said.

are you a people?
you couldn't keep that Old Covenant either.

it's always been about the Gospel preached to Abraham.

FAITH.

 

[just-me]

Exodus 21:28-29 (KJV)

[SUP]28 [/SUP]If an ox gore a man or a woman, that they die: then the ox shall be surely stoned, and his flesh shall not be eaten; but the owner of the ox shall be quit.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.


When was reading this, I was thinking about Pit-bulls. LOL

 

[KohenMatt]

So in the letter of the law. We see, I have never CURSED my parents, So I am ok, I have not broken the law

In the spirit of the letter. We know we have cut down (belittled) our parents at one time in our life. Things like, "I wish my father was like your father". Or " I wish my mother was a better cook" or anything like this. Not to mention. If we just THINK it, according to scripture, this is the same as doing it.

So in reality, if we go by the exact wording of this law. Many kids should have been put to death (including us)

Deut21:18-21 "“If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city[r]at the gateway of his hometown. 20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear."

There has never been a recorded example of this passage being applied. But imagine if they did this just once. How many children in the community would think twice before mouthing off to their parents or disobeying them?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Deut21:18-21 "“If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them,19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city[r]at the gateway of his hometown.20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear."

There has never been a recorded example of this passage being applied. But imagine if they did this just once. How many children in the community would think twice before mouthing off to their parents or disobeying them?

This is true.

But think of it in a more spiritual way. Anytime we think of self, and Not God in ANYTHING we do (be it a good deed or an evil deed) This is exactly what we deserve.

Now thinking of this. If this occured, there would have been no human race, we would not be given the possibility of hope based on Christ, and there would have been no disobedience. the first time we sinned, (BAMB!!!) we are done for..

Then you can think of how awesome the grace of our God is!

 

[just-me]

Hebrews 6:1-6 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Thinking about this scripture reminds me of some who want to deny some scripture, here and there, to absolve themselves from responsibility or an accountability, not wanting to mature in Christ and saying what they believe is all we need, and there is no more to it, not wanting, or unable to see the name of God, the same as the name of Jesus. Perfection in this verse means maturity. What does it mean, “leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ?” It surely does not mean to deny Christ! What I think it means is to incorporate all of the Old Testament with the New Testament in the truth of the Spirit with the Truth found in Christ. This scripture indicates that there is an impossible situation, and relating it to “fall away.” Could it be if we are not striving for maturity that we are going backwards? Some who are satisfied to not grow, even accuse those who want to grow in faith through the Spirit, searching the truth of the Mosaic Law, say they are going backwards, wanting to be under the law. How Ironic.

James 4:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Now this verse is to remind all who read. If we want to keep the Jewish feasts, and feel it wrong not to keep them, don’t accuse them of being wrong, for it is right for them to do so. IT IS NOT A SIN TO KEEP THE FEASTS! On the contrary, for those that do are not denying Christ as the Messiah, unless they are non Messianic Jews

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The book of Hebrews is written to jews. People who knew and understood grace, but would not come out from following the jewish way (they still continued to do the law, including fiests) The author is telling them quite clearly, this is NOT the way to God. In chapter ten, he tells us he has perfected those who are his,, Then tells them, if they keep on sinning (following jewish tradition and law) their is no more sacrifice for sin, for they have the knowledge of truth (which is not enough) but they are unwilling to depart from the old covenant.

Hebrews 6 is a stern warning. You who go back to law. You heard the truth, even experienced it (in being with people of God, not sharing it which is a different greek word) you teach people can fall away (which the law states) but you put christ to open shame, You claim his death was not sufficient, you keep following the stuff which lead us to the understanding of his death, In doing so you mock him.

Many people will be in heaven, who made it with nothing to show. Like going through the fire, yet still saved. As the author says, Some are "near to being cursed" who's end (rewards) are burned.

again, I must ask. Why do people want to follow the schoolmaster, after it supposedly has already done its Job, and not follow Christ and his way? having a new and better way to relate to him and his father, and be used of him in a most powerful way.

Religion is our way, we want control, we want to see. If we do religious ceremony, we can feel good about ourselves. Because we see things.

faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not see. God does not want to relate in ceremony and tradition, the world does that with their Gods. he wants to relate to us as personal induvidual people. As a father deals with his child.

What father forces his child to do repetitive things to relate to him, and gets angry when you do not do so? That is no relationship. That is not the way God wanted it to be either

 

[homwardbound]

It is our rotten human nature under the sway of the prince of the power of the air that is the problem. But if one can blame the Law then they do not have to admit that the real problem is not the person, himself. But God promises to convert us and help us conquer through the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Kind of like a drug problem, one can either legalize drugs (do away with the Law) and it is no longer a crime or one can have his nature changed such that he no longer uses drugs (be converted by the Holy Spirit).

great analogy, Brother, and I never said anything wrong with the Law, the only thing wrong is the flesh and blood in that it is weak and can't perform the Law perfectly. So Christ came to change that and make us alive through the resurrection of new life in the Spirit where we are to be, but can't if we are not willing to die to self, and all self efforts in trying to please God and people.
the Law itself is true, pure and Holy, but no flesh is capable to obey it, and is why it was put in place to show us this problem. So we then could turn to God in need of God all the time, not at certain times all the time
By Faith in God we are saved

 

[zone]

This is true.

But think of it in a more spiritual way. Anytime we think of self, and Not God in ANYTHING we do (be it a good deed or an evil deed) This is exactly what we deserve.

Now thinking of this. If this occured, there would have been no human race, we would not be given the possibility of hope based on Christ, and there would have been no disobedience. the first time we sinned, (BAMB!!!) we are done for..

Then you can think of how awesome the grace of our God is!

according to Paul, as well, after some were through stoning their rebellious children, then they'd sin and be killed for it...then their executioners would have to be stoned eventually....until....not one man would be left standing.

Romans 3
No One Is Righteous
9What then? Are we Jewsa any better off?b No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

 

[zone]

Deut21:18-21 "“If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them, 19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city[r]at the gateway of his hometown. 20 They shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear."

There has never been a recorded example of this passage being applied. But imagine if they did this just once. How many children in the community would think twice before mouthing off to their parents or disobeying them?

did you mouth off to your parents?

 

[homwardbound]

Hebrews 6:1-6 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
[SUP]2 [/SUP]Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And this will we do, if God permit.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Thinking about this scripture reminds me of some who want to deny some scripture, here and there, to absolve themselves from responsibility or an accountability, not wanting to mature in Christ and saying what they believe is all we need, and there is no more to it, not wanting, or unable to see the name of God, the same as the name of Jesus. Perfection in this verse means maturity. What does it mean, “leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ?” It surely does not mean to deny Christ! What I think it means is to incorporate all of the Old Testament with the New Testament in the truth of the Spirit with the Truth found in Christ. This scripture indicates that there is an impossible situation, and relating it to “fall away.” Could it be if we are not striving for maturity that we are going backwards? Some who are satisfied to not grow, even accuse those who want to grow in faith through the Spirit, searching the truth of the Mosaic Law, say they are going backwards, wanting to be under the law. How Ironic.

James 4:17 (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Now this verse is to remind all who read. If we want to keep the Jewish feasts, and feel it wrong not to keep them, don’t accuse them of being wrong, for it is right for them to do so. IT IS NOT A SIN TO KEEP THE FEASTS! On the contrary, for those that do are not denying Christ as the Messiah, unless they are non Messianic Jews

try reading what you posted from Hebrews 5:10 and see at 6:1-2 if God permit you, me and or any others to move onto Maturity, there is no further forgiveness to be executed from God. Christ is not coming back again to die for anymore sins, Christ did this once and for all. Finalize the cross go to God and ask to see the power hidden in the cross starting at the death of Christ becoming your death to self, and maybe you might see if God permits the new life God gives and gave you by the resurrection because without the resurrection we would still be in our sins.
1 Cor. 15 clear on this from Paul by God living through him, and only god can reveal this truth to you, and it takes asking God, whom will answer and show you all truth,. the truth that sets you free

 

[homwardbound]

according to Paul, as well, after some were through stoning their rebellious children, then they'd sin and be killed for it...then their executioners would have to be stoned eventually....until....not one man would be left standing.

Romans 3
No One Is Righteous
9What then? Are we Jewsa any better off?b No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

If I never got this knowledge by the Law I might not have ever known to repent and trust God in te fact that God for me, you and all the world went to the cross for us all to redeem us in the Spirit not the flesh.
And is why there is a war between God's Spirit and flesh and blood of mankind as gal 5 points this out clearly
Thanks Zone

 

[zone]

If I never got this knowledge by the Law I might not have ever known to repent and trust God in te fact that God for me, you and all the world went to the cross for us all to redeem us in the Spirit not the flesh.
And is why there is a war between God's Spirit and flesh and blood of mankind as gal 5 points this out clearly
Thanks Zone

okay home.
but your flesh body in and of itself isn't evil.
you know that, right?

 

[just-me]

try reading what you posted from Hebrews 5:10 and see at 6:1-2 if God permit you, me and or any others to move onto Maturity, there is no further forgiveness to be executed from God. Christ is not coming back again to die for anymore sins, Christ did this once and for all. Finalize the cross go to God and ask to see the power hidden in the cross starting at the death of Christ becoming your death to self, and maybe you might see if God permits the new life God gives and gave you by the resurrection because without the resurrection we would still be in our sins.
1 Cor. 15 clear on this from Paul by God living through him, and only god can reveal this truth to you, and it takes asking God, whom will answer and show you all truth,. the truth that sets you free

Zone made a suggestion that I read something that would be beneficial for all, including those who talk down the Mosaic Law. It's a beautiful picture of Jesus Christ, right out of the Mosaic Law believe it or not. I think that those of us who have been defending this position, by stating again and again that we are not denying Christ in any way, but love the Mosaic law because it causes us to see a greater beauty in Christ. Christ being after the order of Melchisedec is something that is really great, but if we see the law as a thing of the past, then we see repentance from sin a thing of the past also, and we then prohibit ourselves from the reality of dying daily as Paul says. We can't rejoice in the Partial truth that says that we no longer have human nature as long as we are in the fleshly body that we were originally born with. The law is much more than condemnation of the flesh. Much more. Here is a link of a thread that would be benifical for all. I think it would heal differences, of the argument that the the LAW is an adversary of GRACE and FAITH. One must realize that all are given to us by God Almighty.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html