Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?

[zone]

Zone made a suggestion that I read something that would be beneficial for all, including those who talk down the Mosaic Law. It's a beautiful picture of Jesus Christ, right out of the Mosaic Law believe it or not. I think that those of us who have been defending this position, by stating again and again that we are not denying Christ in any way, but love the Mosaic law because it causes us to see a greater beauty in Christ. Christ being after the order of Melchisedec is something that is really great, but if we see the law as a thing of the past, then we see repentance from sin a thing of the past also, and we then prohibit ourselves from the reality of dying daily as Paul says. We can't rejoice in the Partial truth that says that we no longer have human nature as long as we are in the fleshly body that we were originally born with. The law is much more than condemnation of the flesh. Much more. Here is a link of a thread that would be benifical for all. I think it would heal differences, of the argument that the the LAW is an adversary of GRACE and FAITH. One must realize that all are given to us by God Almighty.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html

many of us have already spent time in that thread.
and many of us were already well aware of what those types and shadows meant.

sorry, but this idea - "talk down the Mosaic Law." is part of the problem.

we who know what the LAW really says, hold it in HIGH REGARD....very very high.
do you know why?

i don't know anyone who talks down the Mosaic Law.
maybe you just need some time to catch up

be blessed

 

[john832]

uh, no....he's never said the problem was with the Covenant.
it was with the people. that's what God said.

are you a people?
you couldn't keep that Old Covenant either.

it's always been about the Gospel preached to Abraham.

FAITH.

Here is what the problem is...

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

The carnal mind cannot be subject to the Law of God. so if you believe that you cannot be subject to the Law of God, perhaps you should examine your mind. It just might fit this description. Otherwise...

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

 

[john832]

great analogy, Brother, and I never said anything wrong with the Law, the only thing wrong is the flesh and blood in that it is weak and can't perform the Law perfectly. So Christ came to change that and make us alive through the resurrection of new life in the Spirit where we are to be, but can't if we are not willing to die to self, and all self efforts in trying to please God and people.
the Law itself is true, pure and Holy, but no flesh is capable to obey it, and is why it was put in place to show us this problem. So we then could turn to God in need of God all the time, not at certain times all the time
By Faith in God we are saved

Where does the scripture say we cannot obey God?

 

[john832]

did you mouth off to your parents?

Back when I was a kid, I did. Once.

 

[john832]

many of us have already spent time in that thread.
and many of us were already well aware of what those types and shadows meant.

sorry, but this idea - "talk down the Mosaic Law." is part of the problem.

we who know what the LAW really says, hold it in HIGH REGARD....very very high.
do you know why?

i don't know anyone who talks down the Mosaic Law.
maybe you just need some time to catch up

be blessed

What does the Law say?

 

[Ariel82]

" but if we see the law as a thing of the past, then we see repentance from sin a thing of the past also,"

no!

one does not necessary lead to another.
there is a difference between the law of the Spirit and the Law of sin and death (mosaic law) both require repentance.

 

[KohenMatt]

did you mouth off to your parents?

I'm sure I did. Thankfully there was mercy and grace from them.

Even more thankfully, there's the same from our Father.

 

[KohenMatt]

Yes, we READ and study them, to see how they point to Christ. But DOING them as they did in the OT as many are saying we should do has no value.. We HAVE the fulfillment in Christ.

For me, doing them has TREMENDOUS Value. And it all points to that Fulfillment in Christ.

Example (Which I think was one of the original intentions of this thread).

Sukkot (The Feast of Tabernacles)
Our church camps out together for 8 days. We're in tents, RVs, booths or other things. We live near each other, eat with each other. Study and talk with each other. Have services together. ALL week All 8 days.

Lesson 1: It is really hard to camp when your tent is completely soaked and is almost completely horizontal due to wind. It's hard to keep a moderately clean tent and walk around when there's nothing but mud. It would be much easier to go home. It makes you appreciate God making the Israelites live in temporary dwellings and having to trust Him for daily survival. It also teaches you how our lives are very temporary, that life can be very hard, and that there is a very real temptation to "go back to Egypt" where life was easier and more convenient . Sometimes our walk with God can seem hard. It can see hard to try and overcome our flesh on a daily basis. Sometimes it seems like it would be easier to give up walking with God and go back to our old lives. God's provision over 40 years is a picture of His faithfulness to His people, and the provision and strength He gives us.

Lesson 2: Is it easy to be around the same people day in and day out for 8 straight days? Nope. You tend to get on each other's nerves. You get bothered by their snoring in the next tent, or how they let their kids wake up early and run around the camp ground. You tend to get uncomfortable. And you start longing for an easier, more convenient life. You see what it's really like to love your brother as yourself, when you have to overcome on a daily basis and pursue unity with them, even when you don't want to. You see how God brings forth unity through His Spirit, not of our own doing. Nothing like a real-life practical demonstration of God's people being united in Spirit.

Just a couple of the dozens of lessons I've learned.

 

[just-me]

The book of Hebrews is written to jews. People who knew and understood grace, but would not come out from following the jewish way (they still continued to do the law, including fiests) The author is telling them quite clearly, this is NOT the way to God. In chapter ten, he tells us he has perfected those who are his,, Then tells them, if they keep on sinning (following jewish tradition and law) their is no more sacrifice for sin, for they have the knowledge of truth (which is not enough) but they are unwilling to depart from the old covenant.

Hebrews 6 is a stern warning. You who go back to law. You heard the truth, even experienced it (in being with people of God, not sharing it which is a different greek word) you teach people can fall away (which the law states) but you put christ to open shame, You claim his death was not sufficient, you keep following the stuff which lead us to the understanding of his death, In doing so you mock him.

Many people will be in heaven, who made it with nothing to show. Like going through the fire, yet still saved. As the author says, Some are "near to being cursed" who's end (rewards) are burned.

again, I must ask. Why do people want to follow the schoolmaster, after it supposedly has already done its Job, and not follow Christ and his way? having a new and better way to relate to him and his father, and be used of him in a most powerful way.

Religion is our way, we want control, we want to see. If we do religious ceremony, we can feel good about ourselves. Because we see things.

faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not see. God does not want to relate in ceremony and tradition, the world does that with their Gods. he wants to relate to us as personal induvidual people. As a father deals with his child.

What father forces his child to do repetitive things to relate to him, and gets angry when you do not do so? That is no relationship. That is not the way God wanted it to be either

Acknowledging the Mosaic Law doesn't mean a person is going backwards. Leaving that aside, I'm going to try to explain my previous post concerning Hebrews chapter 6.

View Wesley's Notes for Hebrews 6:1

6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ - That is, saying no more of them for the present. Let us go on to perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works - From open sins, the very first thing to be insisted on. And faith in God - The very next point. So St. Paul in his very first sermon at Lystra, #Acts 14:15|, Turn from those vanities unto the living God. And when they believed, they were to be baptized with the baptism, not of the Jews, or of John, but of Christ. The next thing was, to lay hands upon them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: after which they were more fully instructed, touching the resurrection, and the general judgment; called eternal, because the sentence then pronounced is irreversible, and the effects of it remain for ever.

Hebrews 5:12-14 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Maybe Hebrews was written for the Jews, or Hebrews, if you will, but we Gentiles still have it. I do not disagree, but I submit; Are the Gentiles supposed to teach the Jews or accuse them of going backwards because they see the spiritual aspects of their heritage?

Romans 11:10-11 (KJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

If we are thankful to be grafted in, then I would think that believers, whether Jew, or Gentile can edify each other without being judgmental. Just because some believers practice the feasts and say the Mosaic Law is very important, doesn't mean they are non-believing Jew wannabes. They are worshipping the way they feel is right. If they are doing it with their heart, God approves of their sincerity. Make sense brother?

 

[just-me]

Where does the scripture say we cannot obey God?

Romans 3:23

 

[just-me]

Where does the scripture say we cannot obey God?

Romans 3:23 I think this verse is where homwardbound​ is coming from

 

[just-me]

Allow me to read scriptures from Deuteronomy and then read scriptures from New Testament epistles.
Examples of Deuteronomy's statements and concepts found in New Testament epistles.

1. Deuteronomy 4:6 So keep and do them [the commands], for that is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the peoples who will hear all these statutes and say, 'Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people.'
a. 2 Timothy 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

2. Deuteronomy 4:9 Only give heed to yourself and keep your soul diligently, so that you do not forget the things which your eyes have seen and they do not depart from your heart all the days of your life; but make them known to your sons and your grandsons.
a. Ephesians 6:4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

3. Deuteronomy 4:16,17 so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky
a. Romans 1:18,23 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness . . . and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

4. Deuteronomy 4:20 But the Lord has taken you and brought you out of the iron furnace, from Egypt, to be a people for His own possession, as today.
a. Titus 2:14 who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
b. 1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light
c. Deuteronomy 7:6 For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

5. Deuteronomy 5:33 You shall walk in all the way which the Lord your God has commanded you, that you may live and that it may be well with you, and that you may prolong your days in the land which you will possess.
a. Ephesians 6:1-3 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right. Honor your father and mother (which is the first commandment with a promise), so that it may be well with you, and that you may live long on the earth.

6. Deuteronomy 6:7 You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up.
a. Ephesians 6:4 Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord.

7. Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!
a. 1 Corinthians 8:4 Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
b. Ephesians 4:6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all.

II. At times we get so caught up in the worship differences, the differences in forms of purity, and in ceremonial differences that we fail to see fundamental parallels.

A. Many things never change in God's people of faith who follow Him in any age.
1. The basic qualities of godly character never change--God's people always trust Him.
2. The basic qualities of godly integrity never change--God's people always are honest and trustworthy.
3. The basic qualities of reverencing God never change--God's people always humble themselves before Him.
4. The basic quality of treating people properly never changes--God's people always treat other people like they want to be treated.

B. The eternal God has not changed, and He has not changed His will.
1. He always wants the same kind of godly character and integrity in His people.

2. What changed was the way people can come to God and belong to Him.
a. Jesus Christ is the perfect means of coming to and belonging to God.
b. Jesus does for us perfectly what all the Jewish ceremonies and rituals did imperfectly for Old Testament Israel.

3. God has not changed.

4. His eternal, living word has not changed.

5. What changed is the way we can come to and relate to God.
a. That changed because it no longer depended on imperfect human deeds.
b. That changed because it now depends on the perfect Savior.

When you study from the Old Testament, study to learn and study to understand. It can strengthen your bond with Jesus Christ. It will make you wise as it brings you to salvation.

 

[zone]

What does the Law say?

the Law says DO, and DON'T DO.

how you making out?


but let's defer to Paul....

Galatians 3:12
Christ Redeemed Us
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that does them shall live in them.


did God make a mistake here?
cursed?
really?


so what DOES the Law say?

for it is written, Cursed is every one that continues not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

no man is justified by the law in the sight of God.



k....help me out if i missed it.

 

[AgapeSpiritEyes]

Faith only in the Lord Jesus is were Godliness flows(profitability to be changed into His likeness and character) and then Only if the Holy Spirit empowers it and applies it to your heart and soul.(your desire and will)

 

[just-me]

Exodus 21:33-36 (KJV)
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And if a man shall open a pit, or if a man shall dig a pit, and not cover it, and an ox or an ass fall therein;
[SUP]34 [/SUP]The owner of the pit shall make it good, and give money unto the owner of them; and the dead beast shall be his.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]And if one man's ox hurt another's, that he die; then they shall sell the live ox, and divide the money of it; and the dead ox also they shall divide.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]Or if it be known that the ox hath used to push in time past, and his owner hath not kept him in; he shall surely pay ox for ox; and the dead shall be his own.

Matthew 7:12 (KJV)
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

For me, doing them has TREMENDOUS Value. And it all points to that Fulfillment in Christ.

Example (Which I think was one of the original intentions of this thread).

Sukkot (The Feast of Tabernacles)
Our church camps out together for 8 days. We're in tents, RVs, booths or other things. We live near each other, eat with each other. Study and talk with each other. Have services together. ALL week All 8 days.

Lesson 1: It is really hard to camp when your tent is completely soaked and is almost completely horizontal due to wind. It's hard to keep a moderately clean tent and walk around when there's nothing but mud. It would be much easier to go home. It makes you appreciate God making the Israelites live in temporary dwellings and having to trust Him for daily survival. It also teaches you how our lives are very temporary, that life can be very hard, and that there is a very real temptation to "go back to Egypt" where life was easier and more convenient . Sometimes our walk with God can seem hard. It can see hard to try and overcome our flesh on a daily basis. Sometimes it seems like it would be easier to give up walking with God and go back to our old lives. God's provision over 40 years is a picture of His faithfulness to His people, and the provision and strength He gives us.

Lesson 2: Is it easy to be around the same people day in and day out for 8 straight days? Nope. You tend to get on each other's nerves. You get bothered by their snoring in the next tent, or how they let their kids wake up early and run around the camp ground. You tend to get uncomfortable. And you start longing for an easier, more convenient life. You see what it's really like to love your brother as yourself, when you have to overcome on a daily basis and pursue unity with them, even when you don't want to. You see how God brings forth unity through His Spirit, not of our own doing. Nothing like a real-life practical demonstration of God's people being united in Spirit.

Just a couple of the dozens of lessons I've learned.

lol.. I get together with my church every other week at a home and we eat dinner together. We go on retreats a few times a year. Many of us go camping and boating together. My home church usually goes out to lunch as a group either at someones home or to a nice restaurant.

What you just showed is the true church, this is what church is supposed to be, NOT in a ceremony once a year. But all the time. Thats is why it is called the body. We are to be together often, Not just in church, but as much as we can.

As for people gettin on each others nerves. I have not dealt with that in this body I am involved in. We go to the beach once a year for the weak. It is the only time I have ever been with a bunch of people and we enjoy each other so much we do not want it to end. That is called maturity in the body of Christ.

This is what I mean, Why do it the old way? do it as often as you can. That is what the church is missing.

 

[KohenMatt]

lol.. I get together with my church every other week at a home and we eat dinner together. We go on retreats a few times a year. Many of us go camping and boating together. My home church usually goes out to lunch as a group either at someones home or to a nice restaurant.

What you just showed is the true church, this is what church is supposed to be, NOT in a ceremony once a year. But all the time. Thats is why it is called the body. We are to be together often, Not just in church, but as much as we can.

As for people gettin on each others nerves. I have not dealt with that in this body I am involved in. We go to the beach once a year for the weak. It is the only time I have ever been with a bunch of people and we enjoy each other so much we do not want it to end. That is called maturity in the body of Christ.

This is what I mean, Why do it the old way? do it as often as you can. That is what the church is missing.

Well obviously, we do it as often as we can as well, with different prayer times and Bible Studies each week. Our church services last a total of about 4 hrs (split up between 2 separate services).

But here, I'm just giving 1 practical example of how following something in Torah has blessed me in great ways.

 

[homwardbound]

okay home.
but your flesh body in and of itself isn't evil.
you know that, right?

not after being born again, for the Spirit of God is keeping me alive, I am in trust to God and God alone
[h=3]Hebrews 8:11-13[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

[h=3]The old has past away and the new has come, I do this daily, die to self as Paul did[/h]

 

[homwardbound]

Zone made a suggestion that I read something that would be beneficial for all, including those who talk down the Mosaic Law. It's a beautiful picture of Jesus Christ, right out of the Mosaic Law believe it or not. I think that those of us who have been defending this position, by stating again and again that we are not denying Christ in any way, but love the Mosaic law because it causes us to see a greater beauty in Christ. Christ being after the order of Melchisedec is something that is really great, but if we see the law as a thing of the past, then we see repentance from sin a thing of the past also, and we then prohibit ourselves from the reality of dying daily as Paul says. We can't rejoice in the Partial truth that says that we no longer have human nature as long as we are in the fleshly body that we were originally born with. The law is much more than condemnation of the flesh. Much more. Here is a link of a thread that would be benifical for all. I think it would heal differences, of the argument that the the LAW is an adversary of GRACE and FAITH. One must realize that all are given to us by God Almighty.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/57882-leviticus-seedbed-nt-theology.html

Thank You justme

 

[homwardbound]

Where does the scripture say we cannot obey God?

Matthew 26:41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Mark 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death

Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

so whenever we serve the law of sin we are walking in the flesh and cannot please God. My new Spirit of God serves God, never my flesh
[h=3]Galatians 5:16-26[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law