Christians being murdered and driven out by extremist Muslims in the Middle East

[Drett]

It's true that the relations between Muslims and their pagan fellow-tribesmen rapidly deteriorated. Professor Marco Scholler teaches that pagans persecuted Muhammad early on and that he "suffered from humiliation, derision and from being treated either like a madman or an outcast. Some people would even fling pebbles at him while he was praying and others kicked stones at him so that he had to run away with bleeding feet."

Christians were not doing this to Muhammad: pagan Meccans were.

Yes that is correct. The Romans and Persian were not interested in the Arab Peninsula. They referred to Arabs as people who eat the skin of dead animals and not worthy to think about. When the Muslims started to unite under one leader then that changed.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Well I disagree. I haven't lost my way because Christian epistemology is true. But Islam has a false prophet so it's a blind alley right from the start.

Just as what happened with the Christians, the Muslims lost their way. God has removed his blessing from Muslims for this loss of way.

Christians do not want Christianity judged by those that were not practicing it correctly. Either do we.

 

[leonardronaldo]

No not really. As his followers increased, the unbelievers stopped ridiculing and torturing the prophet and his followers and looked to exterminate them. The prophet and his followers had to flee for their lives to Madinah. Revelation came down on how to deal with that new situation. Telling the Muslims to fight within limits, show mercy and put their trust in God. These lessons are still valid today for any Muslim that is defending themselves. We just need to compare what happened to the occupants of Jerusalem after the first and second crusade to see one group were operating under limits while the other was not.

Followers increase because of the offer of 72 virgins (or grapes, don't really care) in heaven and other deceitful offers that are giving men much more value than women (since muhammad needed army, so he was offering men much higher position).
LOL under limits? Sura 9 is the second last chapter, which of surah 9 that you don't understand? or you interpret the quran yourself without consulting the tafsir? I see then if that's the case

 

[leonardronaldo]

Hi see my post above. I am fasting this month so I am not my normal energetic self.

If you are fasting, you can also have the option to not be online. It's haram in the first place to make friends (sincerely) with unbelievers.
Jesus said praying or fasting or giving to the church, don't let anybody know.

 

[leonardronaldo]

It's true that the relations between Muslims and their pagan fellow-tribesmen rapidly deteriorated. Professor Marco Scholler teaches that pagans persecuted Muhammad early on and that he "suffered from humiliation, derision and from being treated either like a madman or an outcast. Some people would even fling pebbles at him while he was praying and others kicked stones at him so that he had to run away with bleeding feet."

Christians were not doing this to Muhammad: pagan Meccans were.

But Muslims certainly followed in their pagan persecutor's footsteps. They murdered 70 million Hindus, for example, during an expansionary period. They cut apart 150,000 innocent Hindus on a single day once just to demonstrate their power.

The Mongols taught the Muslims a measure of humility for a time though.

the pagans, in my opinion, just as other people, had every right to question muhammad. since he made no miracle at all, especially.
I didn't know though that if they persecuted him, but even if there are persecution, they don't fight (literally fight to kill), like muhammad did after the madina hijra'

 

[leonardronaldo]

Do you think people misinterpret the Quran for the same reasons ?

I supposed you are a sunni.
Islam has based the tafsir (interpretation) of the quran on the earliest scholars. So it's not me, you, Indonesian sheikh, nor Malaysian sheikh, but the earliest scholars. One of which is cousin of muhammad himself, Ibn Abbas.

 

[leonardronaldo]

Just as what happened with the Christians, the Muslims lost their way. God has removed his blessing from Muslims for this loss of way.

Christians do not want Christianity judged by those that were not practicing it correctly. Either do we.

Muhammad practiced the same. Did allah remove his blessing from muhammad? What I see allah always pleased muhammad's need, just like Aisha realized in a sahih hadith.

 

[leonardronaldo]

Yes that is correct. The Romans and Persian were not interested in the Arab Peninsula. They referred to Arabs as people who eat the skin of dead animals and not worthy to think about. When the Muslims started to unite under one leader then that changed.

Yes but later when Muhammad get the enough army member, he sent a letter to the Romans and Persian to surrender, aslim taslam (this is where the word islam derives from actually). why was it?

 

[Drett]

Well I disagree. I haven't lost my way because Christian epistemology is true. But Islam has a false prophet so it's a blind alley right from the start.

I was speaking of the Christians of the crusades and the Spanish inquisition. Do you think you should be judged by them ?

 

[Drett]

If you are fasting, you can also have the option to not be online. It's haram in the first place to make friends (sincerely) with unbelievers.
Jesus said praying or fasting or giving to the church, don't let anybody know.

Another one of the verses that athiests and christian sites like to take out of context.

The cherry pickers seem to leave this verse out.

5:58) O ye who believe! take not those for friends who make a jest and sport of your religion from among those who were given the Book before you, and the disbelievers. And fear Allah if you are believers

Don't befriend those of the people of the book who make fun of your religion.

but if the emnity ceases.

[60:8] It may be that Allah will bring about love between you and those of them with whom you are now at enmity; and Allah is All-Powerful; and Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

I suggest if you want to learn about Islam you should do it at an Islamic site.

 

[woka]

The difference between Islam, and freemasonary........um there is no difference is there?????

 

[Drett]

If you are fasting, you can also have the option to not be online. It's haram in the first place to make friends (sincerely) with unbelievers.
Jesus said praying or fasting or giving to the church, don't let anybody know.

Apa kabar L

Yes concerning fasting I should not tell anyone. It should be between me and God. Hey I never said I was perfect. I struggle to do the right thing along with the rest.

 

[Drett]

The difference between Islam, and freemasonary........um there is no difference is there?????

I think they have a different handshake

 

[leonardronaldo]

Another one of the verses that athiests and christian sites like to take out of context.

The cherry pickers seem to leave this verse out.

5:58) O ye who believe! take not those for friends who make a jest and sport of your religion from among those who were given the Book before you, and the disbelievers. And fear Allah if you are believers

Don't befriend those of the people of the book who make fun of your religion.

but if the emnity ceases.

[60:8] It may be that Allah will bring about love between you and those of them with whom you are now at enmity; and Allah is All-Powerful; and Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

I suggest if you want to learn about Islam you should do it at an Islamic site.

LOL I learned Islam from Islamic website. Let's see if you studied the tafsir. As I said Islam won't accept my interpretation, nor yours.
This is the tafsir of Ibn Abbas, one of greatest early scholars of Islam, he is the cousin of muhammad himself.
(O ye who believe!) in Muhammad and the Qur'an. (Take not the Jews and Christians for friends) seeking their assistance and help. (They are friends one to another) He says: some are followers of the religion of others in secret and in the open, just as they are friends of each other. (He among you) O group of believers (who taketh them for friends) seeking their assistance and help (is (one) of them) in alliance and is not included in Allah's protection and safety. (Lo! Allah guideth not) to His religion and proof (wrong-doing folk) the Jews and Christians.
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - التفاسير

Tafsir of sura 5:51

 

[leonardronaldo]

Apa kabar L

Yes concerning fasting I should not tell anyone. It should be between me and God. Hey I never said I was perfect. I struggle to do the right thing along with the rest.

The most important struggle that a muslim should do, is jihad fisabilillah. Allah himself said he favors those who do jihad then those who only sits back at home (Sura 4 aya 95).
I'll give you some other sura and aya, and you can see yourself the tafsir of the scholars of the website i mentioned before. or any other tafsir of great scholars, you can choose; so that you won't accuse me of cherry picking. because it's there in various chapters.
2:216
2:190-193
4:74
4:76
4:94
4:100
Sura 8 and Sura 9
25:52
29:69
47:4
47:33
48:16
49:15
60:1
61:4
66:9
and other tons of references from sahih hadith and sira. but for now let's read from the quran firstly, word of allah himself.

 

[leonardronaldo]

The difference between Islam, and freemasonary........um there is no difference is there?????

Freemasonry doesn't claim to be religion. Islam does.

 

[Drett]

LOL I learned Islam from Islamic website. Let's see if you studied the tafsir. As I said Islam won't accept my interpretation, nor yours.
This is the tafsir of Ibn Abbas, one of greatest early scholars of Islam, he is the cousin of muhammad himself.
(O ye who believe!) in Muhammad and the Qur'an. (Take not the Jews and Christians for friends) seeking their assistance and help. (They are friends one to another) He says: some are followers of the religion of others in secret and in the open, just as they are friends of each other. (He among you) O group of believers (who taketh them for friends) seeking their assistance and help (is (one) of them) in alliance and is not included in Allah's protection and safety. (Lo! Allah guideth not) to His religion and proof (wrong-doing folk) the Jews and Christians.
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - التفاسير

Tafsir of sura 5:51

Of course what the tasfir is correct. If you look at the tafsir it is speaking about alliances. In the time of the prophet, people would seek alliance from other tribes for protection. While under that persons protection if something would happen to him, the whole tribe would seek revenge for the death. It was a powerful protection. God was telling Muhammad pbuh that you now seek protection from God or other Muslims not from unbelievers.

This Tafsir was originally narrated in Arabic. The person who translated this Taafsir to English chose to use the word friends for the Arabic word awliyaa. Allies is another translation that could have been used.

 

[leonardronaldo]

Of course what the tasfir is correct. If you look at the tafsir it is speaking about alliances. In the time of the prophet, people would seek alliance from other tribes for protection. While under that persons protection if something would happen to him, the whole tribe would seek revenge for the death. It was a powerful protection. God was telling Muhammad pbuh that you now seek protection from God or other Muslims not from unbelievers.

This Tafsir was originally narrated in Arabic. The person who translated this Taafsir to English chose to use the word friends for the Arabic word awliyaa. Allies is another translation that could have been used.

Good then. Do you speak arabic?
I think most of the quran translators, translate awliya as friends.
Let's see tafsir of another verse, then.
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - التفاسير
now that can't mean allies for protection, i believe. also this verse teaches (based on what ibn abbas said) that you can take them as friends only if you guard or save yourselves from them by speaking in a friendly way, while your heart dislikes this.
So being hypocrite and liar is not a sin, as long as you are guarding or saving yourselves. This is why if you remember my post earlier, I said It's haram in the first place to make friends (sincerely) with unbelievers.

 

[Drett]

Good then. Do you speak arabic?
I think most of the quran translators, translate awliya as friends.
Let's see tafsir of another verse, then.
Altafsir.com - The Tafsirs - التفاسير
now that can't mean allies for protection, i believe. also this verse teaches (based on what ibn abbas said) that you can take them as friends only if you guard or save yourselves from them by speaking in a friendly way, while your heart dislikes this.
So being hypocrite and liar is not a sin, as long as you are guarding or saving yourselves. This is why if you remember my post earlier, I said It's haram in the first place to make friends (sincerely) with unbelievers.

Hi L

We just need to look in the bible to see that the English translators sometimes do not do a thorough job.

And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and took bread, and a bottle of water, and gave it unto Hagar, putting it on her shoulder, and the child, and sent her away: and she departed, and wandered in the wilderness of Beersheba.
Genesis 21:14

Considering Ishmael at that time was a teenager, the text refers to Ishmael as a child. Hagar would have been very strong to carry a teenager on her shoulder. Is this a translation error or did this happen ? It was not until last century that text was changed to remove the reference to child and so that Ishmael was not put onto the shoulder of Hagar.

I have been studying Arabic for the last two years. Still have a way to go. Arabic words can have two meanings. If Abaas is speaking about Alliances and one possible meaning of awliya is Allies. Don't take much to join the dots. In the end you can choose to believe what you want to believe.

 

[Jennyyyyy]

messed up man.
but then again, we were warned. it's been going on for thousands of years