Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?

just-me · Jul 21, 2013

Exodus 22:4 (KJV)
[SUP]4 [/SUP]If the theft be certainly found in his hand alive, whether it be ox, or ass, or sheep; he shall restore double.

Facetiously saying, isn't it amazing that a thief is condemned by the law? Ah, we shouldn't prosecute today - most people don't have sheep or oxen or...never mind.

Seriously though, what is the spirit of this law? To condemn the thief by diminishing the act when tempted?

WomanLovesTX · Jul 21, 2013

The Law is for Christians. Why do I say this? We read in Acts 15 that the new converts were told to abstain from 4 things (that related to paganism) and then Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

If the Law was done away with, why were they being told to go to the synagogues every sabbath day?

just-me · Jul 22, 2013

WomanLovesTX said:

Agree 100%? Without the law, we throw away the very substance that reveals our natural state and leads us to daily carry our own cross, and die to self.

homwardbound · Jul 22, 2013

just-me said:

Just the opposite, carry the Law and you carry your own cross being dependent on law is not dependent on the fished work of God through Christ at the cross where all the riches are hidden of the new life given by the resurrection of Christ by God the Father

john832 · Jul 22, 2013

Just out of curiosity, I wonder why a man after God's own heart would say something like this...

Psa 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
Psa 111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

Word for the first 'ever' is...

H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

and the second 'ever'...

H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

And yet we are not now to obey them? They have become obsolete? We should not keep them?

eternally-gratefull · Jul 22, 2013

john832 said:

Why do people keep saying this? no one here is saying we should go out and live in sin.. So this is just a faulty attack on something that is not even being argued.

just-me · Jul 22, 2013

Exodus 22:5 (KJV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP]If a man shall cause a field or vineyard to be eaten, and shall put in his beast, and shall feed in another man's field; of the best of his own field, and of the best of his own vineyard, shall he make restitution.

just-me · Jul 22, 2013

Psalm 1:1-3 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP]Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV)
[SUP]14 [/SUP]But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

WomanLovesTX · Jul 22, 2013

Acts 28:23 "And when they had appointed him (Paul) a day, there came many to him in his lodgings; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, morning till evening.

zone · Jul 22, 2013

WomanLovesTX said:

uh....cuz there was no complete NT yet WLTX.
they were receiving direct revelation.

of course Jesus was foretold in the OT

do you know how few were saved?

do you know why?

what would happen today if John the baptist showed up and hollered at the judaizers to come away from the Old Covenant?

h'obvious.

just-me · Jul 22, 2013

Maybe this scripture will be a help in further discussion. John's day is over, but it is a rather interesting hypothetical situation.

John 5:39-47 (KJV)
[SUP]39 [/SUP]Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
[SUP]40 [/SUP]And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
[SUP]41 [/SUP]I receive not honour from men.
[SUP]42 [/SUP]But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
[SUP]43 [/SUP]I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
[SUP]44 [/SUP]How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
[SUP]45 [/SUP]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

This might cover what both of you are endorsing.

zone · Jul 22, 2013

just-me said:

ya.
they only had Moses.
the whole OT foretold of Christ.
the pharisees who loved the OT and their station rejected the very ONE OF WHOM moses and prophets testified.

and they (moses and the prophets) bore witness to the Righteousness of God which was APART from the LAW.

faith in the Promise - Jesus.

just-me....do you honestly believe Christians who have been saved for more than a short time do not read the Old Testament?
really?

WomanLovesTX · Jul 22, 2013

zone said:

Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say with your questions.

zone · Jul 22, 2013

WomanLovesTX said:

i'm sorry.
it was unclear.

paul would be persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, morning till evening....

John 1:45
Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

John 6:52
Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

John 7:43
42Has not the scripture said, That Christ comes of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was? 43So there was a division among the people because of him.

John 10
18No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. 19There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. 20And many of them said, He has a devil, and is mad; why hear you him?

what did Jesus say was so important about Moses and all the Prophets?

baking yeats? hand-washing? building booths? casting bread on waters?
davidic dances? endless disputes about the Law?

Luke 24
25And he said to them, “O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Was it not necessary that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?” 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.

....

they only had Moses and the prophets....written down.
and the Son of God right there among them.

as they had received His teachings...then as they received power from On High at Pentecost (supernatural knowledge and prophesies and languages and Apostles as gifts....they NOW had the NEW doctrines. the fulfilled and complete Revealtion of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is the spirit of PROPHECY.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jul 22, 2013

WomanLovesTX said:

The converts weren't told to go to synagogues, but were told to abstain from those 4 things so as not to offend Jewish unbelievers, and subsequently make it harder for them to be converted.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jul 22, 2013

john832 said:

Just out of curiosity, I wonder why a man after God's own heart would say something like this...

Psa 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
Psa 111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

Word for the first 'ever' is...

H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

and the second 'ever'...

H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

And yet we are not now to obey them? They have become obsolete? We should not keep them?

Just means until the vanishing point... basically a continuation until that which is out of sight is reached. The cross was that point...

HeRoseFromTheDead · Jul 22, 2013

just-me said:

I don't need the law of Moses to tell me what I am. The spirit witnesses loud and clear that I am perverse and unable to love as I should...

just-me · Jul 22, 2013

zone said:

I never said that Christians don't read the Old Testament. I don't know what they do, all I am talking about is Christians that say they don't need it, and maybe they don't. My statements are based on what others are saying about me wanting to be under the law when I endorse it as a good thing to see the nature of ourselves and God.

I question your statement "and they (moses and the prophets) bore witness to the Righteousness of God which was APART from the LAW." when reading these words that Jesus spoke.

John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

I have always believed Moses received the law from God, and gave it to God's children.

Romans 3:20-22 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:20-21 CJB
20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are. 21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God's way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear - although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well -

The italics, bold, and underlined is something that I see as different than what you present, but I may be misunderstanding you because I see that the law and the prophets give their witness as well, (or if you will) witnessed by the law and the prophets.

zone · Jul 22, 2013

just-me said:

I never said that Christians don't read the Old Testament. I don't know what they do, all I am talking about is Christians that say they don't need it, and maybe they don't. My statements are based on what others are saying about me wanting to be under the law when I endorse it as a good thing to see the nature of ourselves and God.

I question your statement "and they (moses and the prophets) bore witness to the Righteousness of God which was APART from the LAW." when reading these words that Jesus spoke.

John 5:46-47 (KJV)
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

I have always believed Moses received the law from God, and gave it to God's children.

Romans 3:20-22 (KJV)
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 3:20-21 CJB
20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are. 21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God's way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear - although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well -

The italics, bold, and underlined is something that I see as different than what you present, but I may be misunderstanding you because I see that the law and the prophets give their witness as well, (or if you will) witnessed by the law and the prophets.

okay. but the gentiles never had moses.:

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

Romans 9:30
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith;

just-us-2 · Jul 22, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

The law of Moses can also be an encouragement as it can tell you what you are doing right.

Is The Mosaic Law Beneficial For Those Who Have Faith?

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