ASHKENAZI JEWS = KHAZARS
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The “Six Million” Myth
The “Six Million” Myth
JUNE 11, 1900 – NEW YORK TIMES – page 7 – Rabbi Wise’s Address
“There are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism.”
1921-
White Russian patriots gain ground on the Jewish Bolshevik usurpers of their nation. In a vein attempt to disguise their heavy involvement in murderous Bolshevism, Jews reel out the “six million” myth once again.
The “Six Million” Myth
JUNE 11, 1900 – NEW YORK TIMES – page 7 – Rabbi Wise’s Address
“There are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism.”
1921-
White Russian patriots gain ground on the Jewish Bolshevik usurpers of their nation. In a vein attempt to disguise their heavy involvement in murderous Bolshevism, Jews reel out the “six million” myth once again.
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R
this quotation is from one of the foremost experts on judaism in ancient khazaria...
"The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite. [...] Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples from the northern Mediterranean region and even less from Slavs and Khazars."
Jewish Genetics - DNA, genes, Jews, Ashkenazi
the total contribution to the ashkenazi gene pool from khazar converts is estimated to be around 12% based on genetic studies...which is a significant contribution but obviously not remotely enough to account for the origin of the ashkenazi ethnicity...
"The main ethnic element of Ashkenazim (German and Eastern European Jews), Sephardim (Spanish and Portuguese Jews), Mizrakhim (Middle Eastern Jews), Juhurim (Mountain Jews of the Caucasus), Italqim (Italian Jews), and most other modern Jewish populations of the world is Israelite. [...] Ashkenazim also descend, in a smaller way, from European peoples from the northern Mediterranean region and even less from Slavs and Khazars."
Jewish Genetics - DNA, genes, Jews, Ashkenazi
the total contribution to the ashkenazi gene pool from khazar converts is estimated to be around 12% based on genetic studies...which is a significant contribution but obviously not remotely enough to account for the origin of the ashkenazi ethnicity...
sorry.
alan brooks (above) and khazaria.com agree with the LATEST findings.
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1208/1208.1092.pdf < click
the “Rhineland Hypothesis” has proven to be literally impossible. debunked.
it required a 10 fold higher birth rate among eastern european jews compared to their contemporary eastern european counterparts.
ludicrous.
agrue with the real science of you want to.
personally i don't see what the huge deal is.
so you're a jew whose ancestors converted to Judaism 700 years after Christ.
so? it's a religion.
they're fine with it.
neither did Kahzaria.com have an issue when the jews who run the site proudly recounted their ancestoral conversion to Judaism c. 700AD.
HERE'S THE LATEST.
we've already had this discussion.
and i already documented this.
funny how you want to gloss over it.
.......
Abstract
The question of Jewish ancestry has been the subject of controversy for over two centuries and has yet to be resolved. The “Rhineland Hypothesis” proposes that Eastern European Jews emerged from a small group of German Jews who migrated eastward and expanded rapidly.
Alternatively, the “Khazarian Hypothesis” suggests that Eastern European descended from Judean tribes who joined the Khazars, an amalgam of Turkic clans that settled the Caucasus in the early centuries CE and converted to Judaism in the 8th century. The Judaized Empire was continuously reinforced with Mesopotamian and Greco-Roman Jews until the 13th century.
Following the collapse of their empire, the Judeo-Khazars fled to Eastern Europe. The rise of European Jewry is therefore explained by the contribution of the Judeo-Khazars.
Thus far, however, their contribution has been estimated only empirically; the absence of genome-wide data from Caucasus populations precluded testing the Khazarian Hypothesis. Recent sequencing of modern Caucasus populations prompted us to revisit the Khazarian Hypothesis and compare it with the Rhineland Hypothesis. We applied a wide range of population genetic analyses — including principal component, biogeographical origin, admixture, identity by descent, allele sharing distance, and uniparental analyses — to compare these two hypotheses.
Our findings support the Khazarian Hypothesis and portray the European Jewish genome as a mosaic of Caucasus, European, and Semitic ancestries, thereby consolidating previous contradictory reports of Jewish ancestry.
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1208/1208.1092.pdf < click
virtually all jewish scholars and scientists, using the latest genome testing available.
do what you want with it.
alan brooks (above) and khazaria.com agree with the LATEST findings.
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1208/1208.1092.pdf < click
the “Rhineland Hypothesis” has proven to be literally impossible. debunked.
it required a 10 fold higher birth rate among eastern european jews compared to their contemporary eastern european counterparts.
ludicrous.
agrue with the real science of you want to.
personally i don't see what the huge deal is.
so you're a jew whose ancestors converted to Judaism 700 years after Christ.
so? it's a religion.
they're fine with it.
neither did Kahzaria.com have an issue when the jews who run the site proudly recounted their ancestoral conversion to Judaism c. 700AD.
HERE'S THE LATEST.
we've already had this discussion.
and i already documented this.
funny how you want to gloss over it.
.......
Abstract
The question of Jewish ancestry has been the subject of controversy for over two centuries and has yet to be resolved. The “Rhineland Hypothesis” proposes that Eastern European Jews emerged from a small group of German Jews who migrated eastward and expanded rapidly.
Alternatively, the “Khazarian Hypothesis” suggests that Eastern European descended from Judean tribes who joined the Khazars, an amalgam of Turkic clans that settled the Caucasus in the early centuries CE and converted to Judaism in the 8th century. The Judaized Empire was continuously reinforced with Mesopotamian and Greco-Roman Jews until the 13th century.
Following the collapse of their empire, the Judeo-Khazars fled to Eastern Europe. The rise of European Jewry is therefore explained by the contribution of the Judeo-Khazars.
Thus far, however, their contribution has been estimated only empirically; the absence of genome-wide data from Caucasus populations precluded testing the Khazarian Hypothesis. Recent sequencing of modern Caucasus populations prompted us to revisit the Khazarian Hypothesis and compare it with the Rhineland Hypothesis. We applied a wide range of population genetic analyses — including principal component, biogeographical origin, admixture, identity by descent, allele sharing distance, and uniparental analyses — to compare these two hypotheses.
Our findings support the Khazarian Hypothesis and portray the European Jewish genome as a mosaic of Caucasus, European, and Semitic ancestries, thereby consolidating previous contradictory reports of Jewish ancestry.
http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1208/1208.1092.pdf < click
virtually all jewish scholars and scientists, using the latest genome testing available.
do what you want with it.
R
elhaik's paper and the fatal flaws that invalidate it have already been addressed...both by me and by the khazaria site you keep misrepresenting...
"But also see this commentary against the study's consideration of Armenians as a fundamentally Caucasus-based people and this commentary about its mistake in using Armenians as 'a proxy for the gene pool of the Khazar Empire' as well as Seth Frantzman's commentary mentioning a possible problem relating to the Druse among other concerns. Anatole A. Klyosov criticizes Elhaik's study in an article in Russian in Proceedings of the Academy of DNA Genealogy 6:3 (2013)."
the flaw in elhaik's study has been explained to you before...but here it is again...
elhaik chose to use the armenians and the georgians as a genetic proxy for the khazar gene pool which we no longer have access to since the collapse of the khazar state and the extinction of that culture...his assumption was that if he could show a genetic link between ashkenazi jews and the armenians and georgians...then he will have shown a genetic link between the ashkenazim and the khazars...
the problem is that the armenians and georgians had a known affinity with the middle east in ancient times...and the khazars actually -migrated- from central asia into the caucasus region which was -already- inhabited by the armenians and georgians...in short there is no relation between the armenians and georgians and the khazars...
so elhaik demonstrated a genetic link between the ashkenzim and the armenians and georgians... given the affinity between the armenians and georgians and the middle eastern populations in ancient times...what elhaik's data -actually proved- is that the ashkenazi jews likewise originated on the middle eastern periphery... and since there is no relation between the armenians and georgians and the khazars...his data similarly show that there is -no relation- between the ashkenazi jews and the khazars...which incidentally is exactly the same thing every other geneticist to study this issue has concluded...
to make a long story short elhaik used valid science but his assumptions were so blatantly mistaken that his interpretation of the data was the exact -opposite- of what he should have concluded if he had bothered to do even the most basic historical research before he published...
finally i see absolutely nothing on khazaria.com that suggests that the owners believe their ancestors are actually converted khazars...and the direct quotations i have posted show that they believe the opposite...
at this point given your insistence on ignoring the definite flaws in elhaik's paper which have been explained to you repeatedly...and your continual blatant misrepresentation of khazaria.com on which you have been corrected repeatedly...i am forced to conclude that you have simply chosen to be dishonest about this issue...
there is a serious underlying problem when a christian takes to lying...
"But also see this commentary against the study's consideration of Armenians as a fundamentally Caucasus-based people and this commentary about its mistake in using Armenians as 'a proxy for the gene pool of the Khazar Empire' as well as Seth Frantzman's commentary mentioning a possible problem relating to the Druse among other concerns. Anatole A. Klyosov criticizes Elhaik's study in an article in Russian in Proceedings of the Academy of DNA Genealogy 6:3 (2013)."
the flaw in elhaik's study has been explained to you before...but here it is again...
elhaik chose to use the armenians and the georgians as a genetic proxy for the khazar gene pool which we no longer have access to since the collapse of the khazar state and the extinction of that culture...his assumption was that if he could show a genetic link between ashkenazi jews and the armenians and georgians...then he will have shown a genetic link between the ashkenazim and the khazars...
the problem is that the armenians and georgians had a known affinity with the middle east in ancient times...and the khazars actually -migrated- from central asia into the caucasus region which was -already- inhabited by the armenians and georgians...in short there is no relation between the armenians and georgians and the khazars...
so elhaik demonstrated a genetic link between the ashkenzim and the armenians and georgians... given the affinity between the armenians and georgians and the middle eastern populations in ancient times...what elhaik's data -actually proved- is that the ashkenazi jews likewise originated on the middle eastern periphery... and since there is no relation between the armenians and georgians and the khazars...his data similarly show that there is -no relation- between the ashkenazi jews and the khazars...which incidentally is exactly the same thing every other geneticist to study this issue has concluded...
to make a long story short elhaik used valid science but his assumptions were so blatantly mistaken that his interpretation of the data was the exact -opposite- of what he should have concluded if he had bothered to do even the most basic historical research before he published...
finally i see absolutely nothing on khazaria.com that suggests that the owners believe their ancestors are actually converted khazars...and the direct quotations i have posted show that they believe the opposite...
at this point given your insistence on ignoring the definite flaws in elhaik's paper which have been explained to you repeatedly...and your continual blatant misrepresentation of khazaria.com on which you have been corrected repeatedly...i am forced to conclude that you have simply chosen to be dishonest about this issue...
there is a serious underlying problem when a christian takes to lying...
what you keep ignoring...is that the Rhineland Hypothesis is preposterous..
i would ask you to address that, but since you've decided i'm lying. we won't bother.
i'm surely not interested.
all the Arabs and the Byzantines, eastern orthodox, and ancient travelers clearly identified the Khazars as converted JEWS.
Khazaria.com makes it clear in a single passge...yet you claim you see absolutely nowhere they say they were converted a thousand years ago
who's fault is that rachel?
yours? or mine?
"finally i see absolutely nothing on khazaria.com that suggests that the owners believe their ancestors are actually converted khazars...and the direct quotations i have posted show that they believe the opposite..."
let's see if this is hard:
Medieval Kingdom of Khazaria, 652-1016
Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars. After their conversion, the Khazar people used Jewish personal names, spoke and wrote in Hebrew, were circumcised, had synagogues and rabbis, studied the Torah and Talmud, and observed Hanukkah, Pesach, and the Sabbath. The Khazars were an advanced civilization with one of the most tolerant societies of the medieval period. It hosted merchants from all over Asia and Europe. On these pages it is hoped that you may learn more about this fascinating culture.
Khazaria.com - History of Jewish Khazars, Khazar Turk, Khazarian Jews
do the jews at Khazaria.com, the owners, believe their ancestors are actually converted khazars, rachel?
what did they say, above?
was that hard?
"The Kuzari: In Defense of the Despised Faith" is the first new translation into English of The Kuzari since 1905, annotated and explained based on the classic commentaries. Written by Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi of Spain over a period of twenty years and completed in 1140, The Kuzari has enthralled generations of Jews and non-Jews alike with its clear-cut presentation on Judaism, and its polemics against Greek philosophy, Christianity, Islam, and Karaism.
The Kuzari presents a dialog between King Bulan of the Khazars and a rabbi. The story is told that the righteous king was plagued by a recurring dream in which an angel told him: "Your intentions are desirable to the Creator, but not your deeds." This prompted him to summon a Greek philosopher, a Christian missionary, a Muslim mullah, and a Jewish sage (Yitzhak ha-Sangari) to the Khazarian palace to guide him on the proper religious path. He was dissatisfied with each theologian until he heard what the rabbi had to say. Bulan debated with the rabbi, and finally conceded that Judaism was the one true and correct religion. History records that Bulan and much of the Khazar tribe converted to Judaism. Essays 2 thru 5 of The Kuzari feature lively question-and-answer sessions between the Khazar king and the Jewish rabbi. Topics they discuss include the fundamentals of Judaism, tradition vs. logic, prophetic messages, the afterlife, the land of Israel, the Hebrew language, the benefits of communal prayer, the Sabbath, God's various names, astrology, determinism (fatalism) vs. free will (initiative), and many other subjects. The Kuzari is one of the most revered Jewish philosophical works of all time. According to Rabbi Eliyahu (the "Gaon") of Vilna, The Kuzari is "holy and pure, and the fundamentals of Israel's faith and the Torah are contained within."
The Kuzari by Yehuda HaLevi
do Jewish Rabbis happily tell the story of the conversion of the Khazars, rachel?
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies)
"Some of the papers are on general history and relations with other states. From Irina A. Arzhantseva we have "The Alans: Neighbours of the Khazars in the Caucasus". Thomas S. Noonan contributes "The Economy of the Khazar Khagante". James Howard-Johnson writes on Byzantine sources for Khazar history. Tatiaana Kalinina, David Wasserstein and Dan Shapira write on interactions between the Khazars and the Muslim world, while Vladimir Petrukhin examines Khazaria-Rus' relations.
The remaining papers deal with the Khazars' famous conversion to Judaism. Peter B. Golden's contribution is a discussion of their adoption of the religion. Artem Fedorchuk offers "New Findings Relating to Hebrew Epigrahic Sources from the Crimea". Victor Shnirelman contributes "The Story of A Euphemism", a look at how Russian nationalists have viewed the Khazars as the first conspiracy against their country, and whose shadowy heirs continue to cause trouble, using the kingdom for some old-time Jew-bashing without being obvious anti-Semite. Paul Wexler offers "Yiddish Evidence for the Khazar Component in the Ashkenazic Ethnogenesis".
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies): Golden, P.B. (ed.), Ben-Shammai, H. (ed.), Roná-Tas, A. (ed.), Peter B. Golden, Haggai Ben-Shammai, Andras Rona-Tas: 9789004160422: Amazon.com: Books
who is writing this stuff? antisemitic gentiles?
or jews?
RELATIONS BETWEEN THE KHAZARS AND THE GEORGIANS
In Russian:
Yunusov, Arif. Meshetinskie turki: dva deportirovan narod. Baku: Zaman, 2000. Includes discussion of the settlement of Khazars and other Turks in Georgia and their relations with the Georgian people.
Toporov, Vladimir Nikolaevich. Sviatost' i sviatye v russkoi dukhovnoi kul'ture: Pervyi Vek Christianstva na Rusi. Moscow: "Gnozis", Shkola "Yaziki russkoi kul'tury", 1995. Contains hundreds of pages discussing intellectual communications (linguistic and cultural) between Jews and Rus'ians and establishing the Khazarian origin of the Rus Jews.
In German:
Brutzkus, Julius Davidovich. "Die Chazaren und das Kiewer Russland." In VIIe Congrès International des Sciences Historiques: Résumés des communications présentées au Congrès, Vol. 1, pp. 108-113. Warsaw: Société Polonaise d'Histoire, 1933. Alleges the existence of Khazar place-names in Kiev city and Kiev district.
elhaik's paper and the fatal flaws that invalidate it have already been addressed...both by me and by the khazaria site you keep misrepresenting...
"But also see this commentary against the study's consideration of Armenians as a fundamentally Caucasus-based people and this commentary about its mistake in using Armenians as 'a proxy for the gene pool of the Khazar Empire' as well as Seth Frantzman's commentary mentioning a possible problem relating to the Druse among other concerns. Anatole A. Klyosov criticizes Elhaik's study in an article in Russian in Proceedings of the Academy of DNA Genealogy 6:3 (2013)."
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies): Golden, P.B. (ed.), Ben-Shammai, H. (ed.), Roná-Tas, A. (ed.), Peter B. Golden, Haggai Ben-Shammai, Andras Rona-Tas: 9789004160422: Amazon.com: Books
this is only a "flaw" in your perspective, since you hate the idea
for the life of me i do not know why.
no one else but you and fanatical jews claiming they are ancient hebrews, and christian zionists are complaining.
so, you are qualified to disagree with Oxford University Press peer-reviewed journal Genome Biology and Evolution (the peer-review of his journal as well Oxford Journals | Life Sciences | Genome Biology and Evolution | Instructions to Authors)
The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses
if you say so rachel.
what you seemed to have missed, was that as WELL as the new data, Elhaik collected the older DNA samples from ALL the past contradictory studies they found that: Eurasian Jews cluster with Caucasus populations and NOT with any Middle Eastern populations.
he, and his non-biased his peers at Oxoford concluded that the older studies did what you claim elhaik did - they started from a wrong assumption (the Rhineland Hypothesis) and tried to force the data to fit.
that's why it's NEVER been conclusive. what it has done is, like you, suggest that everybody in the world is an ancient Israelite
not ONE single scientist has refuted his findings. they haven't even SPOKEN on the matter. nothing but hand-waving.
you haverefuted his findings. but big deal - who are you?
the rhineland assumption works for you?
miraculous procreation?
impossible migration?
(please note the jewish peer names confirming his (hypothesis)) - nazis? conspiracy theorists?
Dr. Eran Elhaik: "A major difficulty with the Rhineland hypothesis, in addition to the lack of historical and anthropological evidence to the multimigration waves from Palestine to Europe (Straten 2003; Sand 2009), is to explain the vast population expansion of Eastern European Jews from fifty thousand (15th century) to eight million (20th century). The annual growth rate that accounts for this population expansion was estimated at 1.7–2%, one order of magnitude larger than that of Eastern European non-Jews in the 15th–17th centuries, prior to the industrial revolution (Straten 2007). This growth could not possibly be the product of natural population expansion, particularly one subjected to severe economic restrictions, slavery, assimilation, the Black Death and other plagues, forced and voluntary conversions, persecutions, kidnappings, rapes, exiles, wars, massacres, and pogroms (Koestler 1976; Straten 2003; Sand 2009). Because such an unnatural growth rate, over half a millennium and affecting only Jews residing in Eastern Europe, is implausible—it is explained by a miracle (Atzmon et al. 2010; Ostrer 2012). Unfortunately, this divine intervention explanation poses a new kind of problem—it is not science. The question of how the Rhineland hypothesis, so deeply rooted in supernatural reasoning, became the dominant scientific narrative is debated among scholars (Sand 2009).
alright.
i guess we're done then.
let's avoid discussion on this matter if possible.
i may just leave the "Conspiracy Research Forum to you. it's a caricature anyway, with this sort of shoddy refutation.
post pictures of UFOs, or whatever it is you think this forum is about.
bye now.
"But also see this commentary against the study's consideration of Armenians as a fundamentally Caucasus-based people and this commentary about its mistake in using Armenians as 'a proxy for the gene pool of the Khazar Empire' as well as Seth Frantzman's commentary mentioning a possible problem relating to the Druse among other concerns. Anatole A. Klyosov criticizes Elhaik's study in an article in Russian in Proceedings of the Academy of DNA Genealogy 6:3 (2013)."
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies): Golden, P.B. (ed.), Ben-Shammai, H. (ed.), Roná-Tas, A. (ed.), Peter B. Golden, Haggai Ben-Shammai, Andras Rona-Tas: 9789004160422: Amazon.com: Books
this is only a "flaw" in your perspective, since you hate the idea
for the life of me i do not know why.
no one else but you and fanatical jews claiming they are ancient hebrews, and christian zionists are complaining.
so, you are qualified to disagree with Oxford University Press peer-reviewed journal Genome Biology and Evolution (the peer-review of his journal as well Oxford Journals | Life Sciences | Genome Biology and Evolution | Instructions to Authors)
The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses
if you say so rachel.
what you seemed to have missed, was that as WELL as the new data, Elhaik collected the older DNA samples from ALL the past contradictory studies
they found that: Eurasian Jews cluster with Caucasus populations and NOT with any Middle Eastern populations.he, and his non-biased his peers at Oxoford concluded that the older studies did what you claim elhaik did - they started from a wrong assumption (the Rhineland Hypothesis) and tried to force the data to fit.
that's why it's NEVER been conclusive. what it has done is, like you, suggest that everybody in the world is an ancient Israelite
not ONE single scientist has refuted his findings. they haven't even SPOKEN on the matter. nothing but hand-waving.
you haverefuted his findings. but big deal - who are you?
the rhineland assumption works for you?
miraculous procreation?
impossible migration?
(please note the jewish peer names confirming his (hypothesis)) - nazis? conspiracy theorists?
Dr. Eran Elhaik: "A major difficulty with the Rhineland hypothesis, in addition to the lack of historical and anthropological evidence to the multimigration waves from Palestine to Europe (Straten 2003; Sand 2009), is to explain the vast population expansion of Eastern European Jews from fifty thousand (15th century) to eight million (20th century). The annual growth rate that accounts for this population expansion was estimated at 1.7–2%, one order of magnitude larger than that of Eastern European non-Jews in the 15th–17th centuries, prior to the industrial revolution (Straten 2007). This growth could not possibly be the product of natural population expansion, particularly one subjected to severe economic restrictions, slavery, assimilation, the Black Death and other plagues, forced and voluntary conversions, persecutions, kidnappings, rapes, exiles, wars, massacres, and pogroms (Koestler 1976; Straten 2003; Sand 2009). Because such an unnatural growth rate, over half a millennium and affecting only Jews residing in Eastern Europe, is implausible—it is explained by a miracle (Atzmon et al. 2010; Ostrer 2012). Unfortunately, this divine intervention explanation poses a new kind of problem—it is not science. The question of how the Rhineland hypothesis, so deeply rooted in supernatural reasoning, became the dominant scientific narrative is debated among scholars (Sand 2009).
alright.
i guess we're done then.
let's avoid discussion on this matter if possible.
i may just leave the "Conspiracy Research Forum to you. it's a caricature anyway, with this sort of shoddy refutation.
post pictures of UFOs, or whatever it is you think this forum is about.
bye now.
Re: The “Six Million” Myth
oh PoxEclipse
save yourself some grief and energy.
find people who already know the narrative is bogus.
they're not in here.
zone.
The “Six Million” Myth
JUNE 11, 1900 – NEW YORK TIMES – page 7 – Rabbi Wise’s Address
“There are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism.”
1921-
White Russian patriots gain ground on the Jewish Bolshevik usurpers of their nation. In a vein attempt to disguise their heavy involvement in murderous Bolshevism, Jews reel out the “six million” myth once again.
JUNE 11, 1900 – NEW YORK TIMES – page 7 – Rabbi Wise’s Address
“There are 6,000,000 living, bleeding, suffering arguments in favor of Zionism.”
1921-
White Russian patriots gain ground on the Jewish Bolshevik usurpers of their nation. In a vein attempt to disguise their heavy involvement in murderous Bolshevism, Jews reel out the “six million” myth once again.
save yourself some grief and energy.
find people who already know the narrative is bogus.
they're not in here.
zone.
R
what you keep ignoring...is that the Rhineland Hypothesis is preposterous..
i would ask you to address that, but since you've decided i'm lying. we won't bother.
i'm surely not interested.
all the Arabs and the Byzantines, eastern orthodox, and ancient travelers clearly identified the Khazars as converted JEWS.
Khazaria.com makes it clear in a single passge...yet you claim you see absolutely nowhere they say they were converted a thousand years ago
who's fault is that rachel?
yours? or mine?
"finally i see absolutely nothing on khazaria.com that suggests that the owners believe their ancestors are actually converted khazars...and the direct quotations i have posted show that they believe the opposite..."
let's see if this is hard:
Medieval Kingdom of Khazaria, 652-1016
Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars. After their conversion, the Khazar people used Jewish personal names, spoke and wrote in Hebrew, were circumcised, had synagogues and rabbis, studied the Torah and Talmud, and observed Hanukkah, Pesach, and the Sabbath. The Khazars were an advanced civilization with one of the most tolerant societies of the medieval period. It hosted merchants from all over Asia and Europe. On these pages it is hoped that you may learn more about this fascinating culture.
Khazaria.com - History of Jewish Khazars, Khazar Turk, Khazarian Jews
do the jews at Khazaria.com, the owners, believe their ancestors are actually converted khazars, rachel?
what did they say, above?
was that hard?
"The Kuzari: In Defense of the Despised Faith" is the first new translation into English of The Kuzari since 1905, annotated and explained based on the classic commentaries. Written by Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi of Spain over a period of twenty years and completed in 1140, The Kuzari has enthralled generations of Jews and non-Jews alike with its clear-cut presentation on Judaism, and its polemics against Greek philosophy, Christianity, Islam, and Karaism.
The Kuzari presents a dialog between King Bulan of the Khazars and a rabbi. The story is told that the righteous king was plagued by a recurring dream in which an angel told him: "Your intentions are desirable to the Creator, but not your deeds." This prompted him to summon a Greek philosopher, a Christian missionary, a Muslim mullah, and a Jewish sage (Yitzhak ha-Sangari) to the Khazarian palace to guide him on the proper religious path. He was dissatisfied with each theologian until he heard what the rabbi had to say. Bulan debated with the rabbi, and finally conceded that Judaism was the one true and correct religion. History records that Bulan and much of the Khazar tribe converted to Judaism. Essays 2 thru 5 of The Kuzari feature lively question-and-answer sessions between the Khazar king and the Jewish rabbi. Topics they discuss include the fundamentals of Judaism, tradition vs. logic, prophetic messages, the afterlife, the land of Israel, the Hebrew language, the benefits of communal prayer, the Sabbath, God's various names, astrology, determinism (fatalism) vs. free will (initiative), and many other subjects. The Kuzari is one of the most revered Jewish philosophical works of all time. According to Rabbi Eliyahu (the "Gaon") of Vilna, The Kuzari is "holy and pure, and the fundamentals of Israel's faith and the Torah are contained within."
The Kuzari by Yehuda HaLevi
do Jewish Rabbis happily tell the story of the conversion of the Khazars, rachel?
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies)
"Some of the papers are on general history and relations with other states. From Irina A. Arzhantseva we have "The Alans: Neighbours of the Khazars in the Caucasus". Thomas S. Noonan contributes "The Economy of the Khazar Khagante". James Howard-Johnson writes on Byzantine sources for Khazar history. Tatiaana Kalinina, David Wasserstein and Dan Shapira write on interactions between the Khazars and the Muslim world, while Vladimir Petrukhin examines Khazaria-Rus' relations.
The remaining papers deal with the Khazars' famous conversion to Judaism. Peter B. Golden's contribution is a discussion of their adoption of the religion. Artem Fedorchuk offers "New Findings Relating to Hebrew Epigrahic Sources from the Crimea". Victor Shnirelman contributes "The Story of A Euphemism", a look at how Russian nationalists have viewed the Khazars as the first conspiracy against their country, and whose shadowy heirs continue to cause trouble, using the kingdom for some old-time Jew-bashing without being obvious anti-Semite. Paul Wexler offers "Yiddish Evidence for the Khazar Component in the Ashkenazic Ethnogenesis".
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies): Golden, P.B. (ed.), Ben-Shammai, H. (ed.), Roná-Tas, A. (ed.), Peter B. Golden, Haggai Ben-Shammai, Andras Rona-Tas: 9789004160422: Amazon.com: Books
who is writing this stuff? antisemitic gentiles?
or jews?
RELATIONS BETWEEN THE KHAZARS AND THE GEORGIANS
In Russian:
Yunusov, Arif. Meshetinskie turki: dva deportirovan narod. Baku: Zaman, 2000. Includes discussion of the settlement of Khazars and other Turks in Georgia and their relations with the Georgian people.
Toporov, Vladimir Nikolaevich. Sviatost' i sviatye v russkoi dukhovnoi kul'ture: Pervyi Vek Christianstva na Rusi. Moscow: "Gnozis", Shkola "Yaziki russkoi kul'tury", 1995. Contains hundreds of pages discussing intellectual communications (linguistic and cultural) between Jews and Rus'ians and establishing the Khazarian origin of the Rus Jews.
In German:
Brutzkus, Julius Davidovich. "Die Chazaren und das Kiewer Russland." In VIIe Congrès International des Sciences Historiques: Résumés des communications présentées au Congrès, Vol. 1, pp. 108-113. Warsaw: Société Polonaise d'Histoire, 1933. Alleges the existence of Khazar place-names in Kiev city and Kiev district.
your quotation from the khazaria.com site states that the khazars largely converted to judaism...which is not in dispute...but nowhere in that quotation and nowhere on the entire site as far as i have seen do they ever express agreement with the myth that the khazar converts are the ancestral origin of the modern ashkenazi jews...
so for whatever reason you continue to misrepresent the views expressed on khazaria.com...and i know your reading level is higher than fifth grade...you aren't doing this by accident...
yes elhaik's paper was peer reviewed by geneticists...i strongly doubt that any of the reviewers was a historian...and knowledge of middle eastern history is what you need to see the fatal flaw in elhaik's paper...because the genetics are correct...it is the historical assumptions that are invalid...
elhaik found a genetic connection between ashkenazi jews and the armenian and georgian population...he missed the fact that the armenians and ancestral georgians were more closely connected with anatolia and the middle east...and far less with central asia and mongolia where the khazars originally came from...so by showing a genetic connection between the ashkenazim and the armenians and georgians elhaik unwittingly demonstrated that the ashkenazi jews are much closer to the middle east than to the khazars...he then went on to draw the exact opposite conclusion because he didn't understand the historical geography...
i never suggested that 'everybody in the world is an ancient israelite'...why all the lies?
finally elhaik appears to have either misunderstood the rhineland theory or else referenced a non mainstream version of the theory...in the mainstream rhineland theory the migration of the ashkenazim to the rhineland began around the year 1000...not the fifteenth century as in elhaik's caricature...moreover there were already jewish populations there when the ashkenazim arrived...the two populations would have intermingled fairly quickly...
i would ask you to address that, but since you've decided i'm lying. we won't bother.
i'm surely not interested.
all the Arabs and the Byzantines, eastern orthodox, and ancient travelers clearly identified the Khazars as converted JEWS.
Khazaria.com makes it clear in a single passge...yet you claim you see absolutely nowhere they say they were converted a thousand years ago
who's fault is that rachel?
yours? or mine?
"finally i see absolutely nothing on khazaria.com that suggests that the owners believe their ancestors are actually converted khazars...and the direct quotations i have posted show that they believe the opposite..."
let's see if this is hard:
Medieval Kingdom of Khazaria, 652-1016
Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars. After their conversion, the Khazar people used Jewish personal names, spoke and wrote in Hebrew, were circumcised, had synagogues and rabbis, studied the Torah and Talmud, and observed Hanukkah, Pesach, and the Sabbath. The Khazars were an advanced civilization with one of the most tolerant societies of the medieval period. It hosted merchants from all over Asia and Europe. On these pages it is hoped that you may learn more about this fascinating culture.
Khazaria.com - History of Jewish Khazars, Khazar Turk, Khazarian Jews
do the jews at Khazaria.com, the owners, believe their ancestors are actually converted khazars, rachel?
what did they say, above?
was that hard?
"The Kuzari: In Defense of the Despised Faith" is the first new translation into English of The Kuzari since 1905, annotated and explained based on the classic commentaries. Written by Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi of Spain over a period of twenty years and completed in 1140, The Kuzari has enthralled generations of Jews and non-Jews alike with its clear-cut presentation on Judaism, and its polemics against Greek philosophy, Christianity, Islam, and Karaism.
The Kuzari presents a dialog between King Bulan of the Khazars and a rabbi. The story is told that the righteous king was plagued by a recurring dream in which an angel told him: "Your intentions are desirable to the Creator, but not your deeds." This prompted him to summon a Greek philosopher, a Christian missionary, a Muslim mullah, and a Jewish sage (Yitzhak ha-Sangari) to the Khazarian palace to guide him on the proper religious path. He was dissatisfied with each theologian until he heard what the rabbi had to say. Bulan debated with the rabbi, and finally conceded that Judaism was the one true and correct religion. History records that Bulan and much of the Khazar tribe converted to Judaism. Essays 2 thru 5 of The Kuzari feature lively question-and-answer sessions between the Khazar king and the Jewish rabbi. Topics they discuss include the fundamentals of Judaism, tradition vs. logic, prophetic messages, the afterlife, the land of Israel, the Hebrew language, the benefits of communal prayer, the Sabbath, God's various names, astrology, determinism (fatalism) vs. free will (initiative), and many other subjects. The Kuzari is one of the most revered Jewish philosophical works of all time. According to Rabbi Eliyahu (the "Gaon") of Vilna, The Kuzari is "holy and pure, and the fundamentals of Israel's faith and the Torah are contained within."
The Kuzari by Yehuda HaLevi
do Jewish Rabbis happily tell the story of the conversion of the Khazars, rachel?
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies)
"Some of the papers are on general history and relations with other states. From Irina A. Arzhantseva we have "The Alans: Neighbours of the Khazars in the Caucasus". Thomas S. Noonan contributes "The Economy of the Khazar Khagante". James Howard-Johnson writes on Byzantine sources for Khazar history. Tatiaana Kalinina, David Wasserstein and Dan Shapira write on interactions between the Khazars and the Muslim world, while Vladimir Petrukhin examines Khazaria-Rus' relations.
The remaining papers deal with the Khazars' famous conversion to Judaism. Peter B. Golden's contribution is a discussion of their adoption of the religion. Artem Fedorchuk offers "New Findings Relating to Hebrew Epigrahic Sources from the Crimea". Victor Shnirelman contributes "The Story of A Euphemism", a look at how Russian nationalists have viewed the Khazars as the first conspiracy against their country, and whose shadowy heirs continue to cause trouble, using the kingdom for some old-time Jew-bashing without being obvious anti-Semite. Paul Wexler offers "Yiddish Evidence for the Khazar Component in the Ashkenazic Ethnogenesis".
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies): Golden, P.B. (ed.), Ben-Shammai, H. (ed.), Roná-Tas, A. (ed.), Peter B. Golden, Haggai Ben-Shammai, Andras Rona-Tas: 9789004160422: Amazon.com: Books
who is writing this stuff? antisemitic gentiles?
or jews?
RELATIONS BETWEEN THE KHAZARS AND THE GEORGIANS
In Russian:
Yunusov, Arif. Meshetinskie turki: dva deportirovan narod. Baku: Zaman, 2000. Includes discussion of the settlement of Khazars and other Turks in Georgia and their relations with the Georgian people.
Toporov, Vladimir Nikolaevich. Sviatost' i sviatye v russkoi dukhovnoi kul'ture: Pervyi Vek Christianstva na Rusi. Moscow: "Gnozis", Shkola "Yaziki russkoi kul'tury", 1995. Contains hundreds of pages discussing intellectual communications (linguistic and cultural) between Jews and Rus'ians and establishing the Khazarian origin of the Rus Jews.
In German:
Brutzkus, Julius Davidovich. "Die Chazaren und das Kiewer Russland." In VIIe Congrès International des Sciences Historiques: Résumés des communications présentées au Congrès, Vol. 1, pp. 108-113. Warsaw: Société Polonaise d'Histoire, 1933. Alleges the existence of Khazar place-names in Kiev city and Kiev district.
elhaik's paper and the fatal flaws that invalidate it have already been addressed...both by me and by the khazaria site you keep misrepresenting...
"But also see this commentary against the study's consideration of Armenians as a fundamentally Caucasus-based people and this commentary about its mistake in using Armenians as 'a proxy for the gene pool of the Khazar Empire' as well as Seth Frantzman's commentary mentioning a possible problem relating to the Druse among other concerns. Anatole A. Klyosov criticizes Elhaik's study in an article in Russian in Proceedings of the Academy of DNA Genealogy 6:3 (2013)."
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies): Golden, P.B. (ed.), Ben-Shammai, H. (ed.), Roná-Tas, A. (ed.), Peter B. Golden, Haggai Ben-Shammai, Andras Rona-Tas: 9789004160422: Amazon.com: Books
this is only a "flaw" in your perspective, since you hate the idea
for the life of me i do not know why.
no one else but you and fanatical jews claiming they are ancient hebrews, and christian zionists are complaining.
so, you are qualified to disagree with Oxford University Press peer-reviewed journal Genome Biology and Evolution (the peer-review of his journal as well Oxford Journals | Life Sciences | Genome Biology and Evolution | Instructions to Authors)
The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses
if you say so rachel.
what you seemed to have missed, was that as WELL as the new data, Elhaik collected the older DNA samples from ALL the past contradictory studies they found that: Eurasian Jews cluster with Caucasus populations and NOT with any Middle Eastern populations.
he, and his non-biased his peers at Oxoford concluded that the older studies did what you claim elhaik did - they started from a wrong assumption (the Rhineland Hypothesis) and tried to force the data to fit.
that's why it's NEVER been conclusive. what it has done is, like you, suggest that everybody in the world is an ancient Israelite
not ONE single scientist has refuted his findings. they haven't even SPOKEN on the matter. nothing but hand-waving.
you haverefuted his findings. but big deal - who are you?
the rhineland assumption works for you?
miraculous procreation?
impossible migration?
(please note the jewish peer names confirming his (hypothesis)) - nazis? conspiracy theorists?
Dr. Eran Elhaik: "A major difficulty with the Rhineland hypothesis, in addition to the lack of historical and anthropological evidence to the multimigration waves from Palestine to Europe (Straten 2003; Sand 2009), is to explain the vast population expansion of Eastern European Jews from fifty thousand (15th century) to eight million (20th century). The annual growth rate that accounts for this population expansion was estimated at 1.7–2%, one order of magnitude larger than that of Eastern European non-Jews in the 15th–17th centuries, prior to the industrial revolution (Straten 2007). This growth could not possibly be the product of natural population expansion, particularly one subjected to severe economic restrictions, slavery, assimilation, the Black Death and other plagues, forced and voluntary conversions, persecutions, kidnappings, rapes, exiles, wars, massacres, and pogroms (Koestler 1976; Straten 2003; Sand 2009). Because such an unnatural growth rate, over half a millennium and affecting only Jews residing in Eastern Europe, is implausible—it is explained by a miracle (Atzmon et al. 2010; Ostrer 2012). Unfortunately, this divine intervention explanation poses a new kind of problem—it is not science. The question of how the Rhineland hypothesis, so deeply rooted in supernatural reasoning, became the dominant scientific narrative is debated among scholars (Sand 2009).
alright.
i guess we're done then.
let's avoid discussion on this matter if possible.
i may just leave the "Conspiracy Research Forum to you. it's a caricature anyway, with this sort of shoddy refutation.
post pictures of UFOs, or whatever it is you think this forum is about.
bye now.
"But also see this commentary against the study's consideration of Armenians as a fundamentally Caucasus-based people and this commentary about its mistake in using Armenians as 'a proxy for the gene pool of the Khazar Empire' as well as Seth Frantzman's commentary mentioning a possible problem relating to the Druse among other concerns. Anatole A. Klyosov criticizes Elhaik's study in an article in Russian in Proceedings of the Academy of DNA Genealogy 6:3 (2013)."
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies): Golden, P.B. (ed.), Ben-Shammai, H. (ed.), Roná-Tas, A. (ed.), Peter B. Golden, Haggai Ben-Shammai, Andras Rona-Tas: 9789004160422: Amazon.com: Books
this is only a "flaw" in your perspective, since you hate the idea
for the life of me i do not know why.
no one else but you and fanatical jews claiming they are ancient hebrews, and christian zionists are complaining.
so, you are qualified to disagree with Oxford University Press peer-reviewed journal Genome Biology and Evolution (the peer-review of his journal as well Oxford Journals | Life Sciences | Genome Biology and Evolution | Instructions to Authors)
The Missing Link of Jewish European Ancestry: Contrasting the Rhineland and the Khazarian Hypotheses
if you say so rachel.
what you seemed to have missed, was that as WELL as the new data, Elhaik collected the older DNA samples from ALL the past contradictory studies
they found that: Eurasian Jews cluster with Caucasus populations and NOT with any Middle Eastern populations.he, and his non-biased his peers at Oxoford concluded that the older studies did what you claim elhaik did - they started from a wrong assumption (the Rhineland Hypothesis) and tried to force the data to fit.
that's why it's NEVER been conclusive. what it has done is, like you, suggest that everybody in the world is an ancient Israelite
not ONE single scientist has refuted his findings. they haven't even SPOKEN on the matter. nothing but hand-waving.
you haverefuted his findings. but big deal - who are you?
the rhineland assumption works for you?
miraculous procreation?
impossible migration?
(please note the jewish peer names confirming his (hypothesis)) - nazis? conspiracy theorists?
Dr. Eran Elhaik: "A major difficulty with the Rhineland hypothesis, in addition to the lack of historical and anthropological evidence to the multimigration waves from Palestine to Europe (Straten 2003; Sand 2009), is to explain the vast population expansion of Eastern European Jews from fifty thousand (15th century) to eight million (20th century). The annual growth rate that accounts for this population expansion was estimated at 1.7–2%, one order of magnitude larger than that of Eastern European non-Jews in the 15th–17th centuries, prior to the industrial revolution (Straten 2007). This growth could not possibly be the product of natural population expansion, particularly one subjected to severe economic restrictions, slavery, assimilation, the Black Death and other plagues, forced and voluntary conversions, persecutions, kidnappings, rapes, exiles, wars, massacres, and pogroms (Koestler 1976; Straten 2003; Sand 2009). Because such an unnatural growth rate, over half a millennium and affecting only Jews residing in Eastern Europe, is implausible—it is explained by a miracle (Atzmon et al. 2010; Ostrer 2012). Unfortunately, this divine intervention explanation poses a new kind of problem—it is not science. The question of how the Rhineland hypothesis, so deeply rooted in supernatural reasoning, became the dominant scientific narrative is debated among scholars (Sand 2009).
alright.
i guess we're done then.
let's avoid discussion on this matter if possible.
i may just leave the "Conspiracy Research Forum to you. it's a caricature anyway, with this sort of shoddy refutation.
post pictures of UFOs, or whatever it is you think this forum is about.
bye now.
so for whatever reason you continue to misrepresent the views expressed on khazaria.com...and i know your reading level is higher than fifth grade...you aren't doing this by accident...
yes elhaik's paper was peer reviewed by geneticists...i strongly doubt that any of the reviewers was a historian...and knowledge of middle eastern history is what you need to see the fatal flaw in elhaik's paper...because the genetics are correct...it is the historical assumptions that are invalid...
elhaik found a genetic connection between ashkenazi jews and the armenian and georgian population...he missed the fact that the armenians and ancestral georgians were more closely connected with anatolia and the middle east...and far less with central asia and mongolia where the khazars originally came from...so by showing a genetic connection between the ashkenazim and the armenians and georgians elhaik unwittingly demonstrated that the ashkenazi jews are much closer to the middle east than to the khazars...he then went on to draw the exact opposite conclusion because he didn't understand the historical geography...
i never suggested that 'everybody in the world is an ancient israelite'...why all the lies?
finally elhaik appears to have either misunderstood the rhineland theory or else referenced a non mainstream version of the theory...in the mainstream rhineland theory the migration of the ashkenazim to the rhineland began around the year 1000...not the fifteenth century as in elhaik's caricature...moreover there were already jewish populations there when the ashkenazim arrived...the two populations would have intermingled fairly quickly...
This page is Copyright © 2000-2011 by Kevin Brook, all rights reserved. Unauthorized reproduction of this page is prohibited.
Are Mountain Jews Descended from the Khazars?
An Examination of Jewish Tribes from the Eastern Caucasus
by Kevin Alan Brook
Are Mountain Jews Descended from the Khazars? < click
paranoid conspiracy theorist, much? still accusing me of trash - after you've slipped away and discovered the things i posted years ago are true.
and it's zone who has an agenda?
you're funny.
i know you won't keep the issues of the Oxford findings in mind - you hate it.
just keep watching for the next round. and keep tweaking your story.
and i know you won't bother reading ALL the older research which is based ENTIRELY on an admitted and on record assumption of a MIRACULOUS procreation event.
but perhaps you can keep in mind that Khazaria.com is a COMPILATION or DATABASE of every finding and theory and study available - most of which contradict each other, even on the same page. they do no attempt to reach ANY definitive conclusions on ONGOING studies.
DUH.
the very CONCEPT ITSELF - that:
was something you yourself whimpered, shrieked, derided and reported me at CC for just a few short years ago as a satanic NAZI MYTH.
remember, rachel?
now you're onboard with The Khazarian Kingdom conversion....amazing
i told you - you're a few years behind.
so the combination of arrogance with ignorance is understandable, though particularly unattractive in you.
following is something that is not prohibited by copyright.
try to hold the kevin brooks data page on the Mountain Jews in your mind as you read this.
your heroic defense against the big bad Nazi Conspiracy Theorist Zone is held up by the idea that (GASP...wait for it) the ASHKENAZISM are NOT the primary subjects of these studies....Brooks' included.
all these jewish scholars excitedly discussing the origins of the ashkenazism and struggling to resolve the problematic MIRACULOUS RHINELAND THEORY gaga......but rachel isn't having it.
why, i have NO CLUE....actually i do - cuz she's a better historian than they.
do you have a particular reason for making certain the ashkenazism are NOT from the Caucuasus Khaganate?
only you know what that is.
nobody seems to care but you.
an historian such as yourself?
God help us.
well, if i were to continue this wretched conversation with you, i'd simply post the historians discussion of elhaik's findings (his thesis certain not being new)
but...nah. do your own work
really. i'll bet he'd be blushing with pride to know you approve of his expert genetic finding, young lady.
as for the history..... perhaps someday rachel will burst on to the scene and provide the solution that all the JEWISH HISTORIANS who have no issue with the Khazarian Ashkenazi connection just were too stupid to get. either that or they're self haters, eh?
you naturally reject ALL of them.
just as you reject the New Revisionists (Jews) who debunk your racist anti-indigenous population theories - namely - NO NAKBA....among other disgraceful assertions you've made.
maybe you're just a garden-variety american zionist racist and a bigot - your previous posts on this subject just a couple of years ago, and your anti-arab stance is pretty clear.
putrid remarks about the palestinians and syrians (CHRISTIANS)
and astounding remarks about Israel is your BFF....LOL. k.
the historical assumption of the Rhineland Hypothesis is a typical Talmudic-style delusion.
but you can keep it if it makes you feel better.
he drew the right conclusion, because he discarded the INFANTILE Rhineland Miracle hypothesis.
but cling to it. you have to now.
blah blah blah.....see following post.
LOL....you still have no idea what the database at Khazria.com is for.
initially when i posted it years ago - I WAS A SKINHEAD JEW-HATER for even suggesting such thing existed.....member rachel?
you campaigned mightly to get me banned for being antisemitic.
*cough*
incidentally - you should contact Mearsheimer and Walt and let them know how wrong THEY are too, rachel.
i'm sure they'll take you seriously.
thanks for your non-expert opinion.
i'll keep following the unbiased jewish historians and genome experts if that's okay with you, girl.
they have no vested interest like you.
if i get things wrong here or there, i'm fine with that.
i've been at it for some time...things are only just recently becoming LEGAL to mention and discuss.
in certain circles it's still antisemitic to even say the word jew and khazar in the same sentence.
unlike you, i couldn't care less.
seek out the truth and let the chips fall where they may.
i don't have to defend Israel at any cost, like you.
~
anyway: reminder - rachel's issues are:
History
Migrations
Ashkenazism
Khazaria
let's see what a non-copyright page says. know your footnotes.
cont....
Are Mountain Jews Descended from the Khazars?
An Examination of Jewish Tribes from the Eastern Caucasus
by Kevin Alan Brook
Are Mountain Jews Descended from the Khazars? < click
paranoid conspiracy theorist, much? still accusing me of trash - after you've slipped away and discovered the things i posted years ago are true.
and it's zone who has an agenda?
you're funny.
i know you won't keep the issues of the Oxford findings in mind - you hate it.
just keep watching for the next round. and keep tweaking your story.
and i know you won't bother reading ALL the older research which is based ENTIRELY on an admitted and on record assumption of a MIRACULOUS procreation event.
but perhaps you can keep in mind that Khazaria.com is a COMPILATION or DATABASE of every finding and theory and study available - most of which contradict each other, even on the same page. they do no attempt to reach ANY definitive conclusions on ONGOING studies.
DUH.
the very CONCEPT ITSELF - that:
was something you yourself whimpered, shrieked, derided and reported me at CC for just a few short years ago as a satanic NAZI MYTH.
remember, rachel?
now you're onboard with The Khazarian Kingdom conversion....amazing
i told you - you're a few years behind.
so the combination of arrogance with ignorance is understandable, though particularly unattractive in you.
following is something that is not prohibited by copyright.
try to hold the kevin brooks data page on the Mountain Jews in your mind as you read this.
your heroic defense against the big bad Nazi Conspiracy Theorist Zone is held up by the idea that (GASP...wait for it) the ASHKENAZISM are NOT the primary subjects of these studies....Brooks' included.
all these jewish scholars excitedly discussing the origins of the ashkenazism and struggling to resolve the problematic MIRACULOUS RHINELAND THEORY gaga......but rachel isn't having it.
why, i have NO CLUE....actually i do - cuz she's a better historian than they.
do you have a particular reason for making certain the ashkenazism are NOT from the Caucuasus Khaganate?
only you know what that is.
nobody seems to care but you.
an historian such as yourself?
God help us.
well, if i were to continue this wretched conversation with you, i'd simply post the historians discussion of elhaik's findings (his thesis certain not being new)
but...nah. do your own work
really. i'll bet he'd be blushing with pride to know you approve of his expert genetic finding, young lady.
as for the history..... perhaps someday rachel will burst on to the scene and provide the solution that all the JEWISH HISTORIANS who have no issue with the Khazarian Ashkenazi connection just were too stupid to get. either that or they're self haters, eh?
you naturally reject ALL of them.
just as you reject the New Revisionists (Jews) who debunk your racist anti-indigenous population theories - namely - NO NAKBA....among other disgraceful assertions you've made.
maybe you're just a garden-variety american zionist racist and a bigot - your previous posts on this subject just a couple of years ago, and your anti-arab stance is pretty clear.
putrid remarks about the palestinians and syrians (CHRISTIANS)
and astounding remarks about Israel is your BFF....LOL. k.
the historical assumption of the Rhineland Hypothesis is a typical Talmudic-style delusion.
but you can keep it if it makes you feel better.
he drew the right conclusion, because he discarded the INFANTILE Rhineland Miracle hypothesis.
but cling to it. you have to now.
blah blah blah.....see following post.
LOL....you still have no idea what the database at Khazria.com is for.
initially when i posted it years ago - I WAS A SKINHEAD JEW-HATER for even suggesting such thing existed.....member rachel?
you campaigned mightly to get me banned for being antisemitic.
*cough*
incidentally - you should contact Mearsheimer and Walt and let them know how wrong THEY are too, rachel.
i'm sure they'll take you seriously.
thanks for your non-expert opinion.
i'll keep following the unbiased jewish historians and genome experts if that's okay with you, girl.
they have no vested interest like you.
if i get things wrong here or there, i'm fine with that.
i've been at it for some time...things are only just recently becoming LEGAL to mention and discuss.
in certain circles it's still antisemitic to even say the word jew and khazar in the same sentence.
unlike you, i couldn't care less.
seek out the truth and let the chips fall where they may.
i don't have to defend Israel at any cost, like you.
~
anyway: reminder - rachel's issues are:
History
Migrations
Ashkenazism
Khazaria
let's see what a non-copyright page says. know your footnotes.
cont....
History of the Jews in Azerbaijan
History of the Jews in Azerbaijan (Judæo-Tat: çuhuro / жугьуро / ז'אוּהאוּרו; Yiddish: אידם; Azeri: cuhudlar, yəhudilər; Russian: евреи) dates back to Late Antiquity.
Historically Jews in Azerbaijan have been represented by various subgroups, mainly Mountain Jews, Ashkenazi Jews and Georgian Jews
Different theories have been brought forward regarding the origin of Mountain Jews and the exact date of their settlement in the Caucasus. The commonly accepted theory views Mountain Jews as early medieval immigrants from Persia and possibly the Byzantine Empire forced out by Islamic conquests. They settled in Caucasian Albania, on the left bank of the Kura River and interacted with the Kypchak Kaganate of Khazaria, which lied to the north. It was through these early Jewish communities that the Khazars converted to Judaism making it their state religion.[2]
1811 is the year when the first Ashkenazi Jews settled in Baku, but their mass immigration to what is now Azerbaijan did not start until the 1870s. Their immigration was relatively steady leading them to outnumber the local Mountain Jewish community by 1910. They settled mostly in the booming oil-rich city of Baku. The Caspian-Black Sea Company, one of the leading oil companies in the Russian Empire, was established in Baku by the wealthy Rothschild family of German Jewish origin. Ashkenazi Jews continued immigrating to Azerbaijan until the late 1940s, with a number of them being World War II evacuees from Russia, Ukraine and Belarus who chose to stay in their country of refuge.[2]
History of the Jews in Azerbaijan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ashkenazi Jews
Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or simply Ashkenazim (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַזִּים, Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Germania"), are a Jewish subgroup, who trace their origins to the indigenous Israelite tribes of Israel and Judah in the ancient Near East. According to the mainstream Rhineland hypothesis, Jews arrived to central Europe following the crisis of the 7th century in Byzantine Palestine around the time of Muslim conquest. Jews probably began settling along the Rhine in Germany, from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north, during the early Middle Ages.[9]
Ashkenazi Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Debate on European Jews' origin settled?
Gene study says Jews of European descent are mix of ancestries, with many hailing from tribes in Caucasus who converted to Judaism and created empire that lasted half a millennium
Published: 02.05.13, 06:50 / Israel Jewish Scene
Jews of European origin are a mix of ancestries, with many hailing from tribes in the Caucasus who converted to Judaism and created an empire that lasted half a millennium, according to a gene study.
The investigation, its author says, should settle a debate that has been roiling for more than two centuries.
Jews of European descent, often called Ashkenazim, account for some 90% of the more than 13 million Jews in the world today.
According to the so-called Rhineland Hypothesis, Ashkenazim descended from Jews who progressively fled Palestine after the Muslim conquest of 638 AD.
They settled in southern Europe and then, in the late Middle Ages, about 50,000 of them moved from the Rhineland in Germany into eastern Europe, according to the hypothesis.
But detractors say this idea is implausible.
Barring a miracle – which some supporters of the Rhineland Hypothesis have in fact suggested – the scenario would have been demographically impossible.
It would mean that the population of Eastern European Jews leapt from 50,000 in the 15th century to around eight million at the start of the 20th century.
That birth rate would have been 10 times greater than that of the local non-Jewish population. And it would have occurred despite economic hardship, disease, wars and pogroms that ravaged Jewish communities.
Seeking new light in the argument, a study published in the British journal Genome Biology and Evolution, compares the genomes of 1,287 unrelated individuals who hail from eight Jewish and 74 non-Jewish populations.
Geneticist Eran Elhaik of the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health in Baltimore, Maryland, trawled through this small mountain of data in search of single changes in the DNA code that are linked to a group's geographical origins.
Such telltales have been used in past research to delve into the origins of the Basque people and the pygmy people of central Africa.
Among European Jews, Elhaik found ancestral signatures that pointed clearly to the Caucasus and also, but to a smaller degree, the Middle East.
The results, said Elhaik, give sound backing for the rival theory – the "Khazarian Hypothesis."
Backed by archaeological findings
Under this concept, eastern European Jews descended from the Khazars, a hotchpotch of Turkic clans that settled the Caucasus in the early centuries AD and, influenced by Jews from Palestine, converted to Judaism in the 8th century.
The Judeo-Khazars built a flourishing empire, drawing in Jews from Mesopotamia and imperial Byzantium.
They became so successful that they sent offshoots into Hungary and Romania, planting the seeds of a great Diaspora.
But Khazaria collapsed in the 13th century when it was attacked by the Mongols and became weakened by outbreaks of the Black Death.
The Judeo-Khazars fled westwards, settling in the rising Polish Kingdom and in Hungary, where their skills in finance, economics and politics were in demand, and eventually spread to central and western Europe, according to the "Khazarian Hypothesis."
"We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaised Khazars, Greco-Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews and Judeans," says Elhaik.
"Their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga, with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan."
Many things are unknown about the Khazars, whose tribal confederation gathered Slavs, Scythians, Hunnic-Bulgars, Iranians, Alans and Turks.
But, argues Elhaik, the tale sketched in the genes is backed by archaeological findings, by Jewish literature that describes the Khazars' conversion to Judaism, and by language, too.
"Yiddish, the language of Central and Eastern European Jews, began as a Slavic language" before being reclassified as High German, he notes.
Another pointer is that European Jews and their ancestral groups in the Caucasus and Middle East share a relatively high risk of diseases such as cystic fibrosis.
The investigation should help fine-tune a fast-expanding branch of genomics, which looks at single-change DNA mutations that are linked with inherited disease, adds Elhaik
Debate on European Jews' origin settled? - Israel Jewish Scene, Ynetnews < click
Barring a miracle – which some supporters of the Rhineland Hypothesis have in fact suggested – the scenario would have been demographically impossible.
anyone who cares to can find out fairly quickly that the "supporters" of the miracle theory are in fact the older geneticists themselves.
History of the Jews in Azerbaijan (Judæo-Tat: çuhuro / жугьуро / ז'אוּהאוּרו; Yiddish: אידם; Azeri: cuhudlar, yəhudilər; Russian: евреи) dates back to Late Antiquity.
Historically Jews in Azerbaijan have been represented by various subgroups, mainly Mountain Jews, Ashkenazi Jews and Georgian Jews
Different theories have been brought forward regarding the origin of Mountain Jews and the exact date of their settlement in the Caucasus. The commonly accepted theory views Mountain Jews as early medieval immigrants from Persia and possibly the Byzantine Empire forced out by Islamic conquests. They settled in Caucasian Albania, on the left bank of the Kura River and interacted with the Kypchak Kaganate of Khazaria, which lied to the north. It was through these early Jewish communities that the Khazars converted to Judaism making it their state religion.[2]
1811 is the year when the first Ashkenazi Jews settled in Baku, but their mass immigration to what is now Azerbaijan did not start until the 1870s. Their immigration was relatively steady leading them to outnumber the local Mountain Jewish community by 1910. They settled mostly in the booming oil-rich city of Baku. The Caspian-Black Sea Company, one of the leading oil companies in the Russian Empire, was established in Baku by the wealthy Rothschild family of German Jewish origin. Ashkenazi Jews continued immigrating to Azerbaijan until the late 1940s, with a number of them being World War II evacuees from Russia, Ukraine and Belarus who chose to stay in their country of refuge.[2]
History of the Jews in Azerbaijan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ashkenazi Jews
Ashkenazi Jews, also known as Ashkenazic Jews or simply Ashkenazim (Hebrew: אַשְׁכְּנַזִּים, Ashkenazi Hebrew pronunciation: [ˌaʃkəˈnazim], singular: [ˌaʃkəˈnazi], Modern Hebrew: [aʃkenaˈzim], [aʃkenaˈzi]; also יְהוּדֵי אַשְׁכֲּנַז Y'hudey Ashkenaz, "The Jews of Germania"), are a Jewish subgroup, who trace their origins to the indigenous Israelite tribes of Israel and Judah in the ancient Near East. According to the mainstream Rhineland hypothesis, Jews arrived to central Europe following the crisis of the 7th century in Byzantine Palestine around the time of Muslim conquest. Jews probably began settling along the Rhine in Germany, from Alsace in the south to the Rhineland in the north, during the early Middle Ages.[9]
Ashkenazi Jews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Debate on European Jews' origin settled?
Gene study says Jews of European descent are mix of ancestries, with many hailing from tribes in Caucasus who converted to Judaism and created empire that lasted half a millennium
Published: 02.05.13, 06:50 / Israel Jewish Scene
Jews of European origin are a mix of ancestries, with many hailing from tribes in the Caucasus who converted to Judaism and created an empire that lasted half a millennium, according to a gene study.
The investigation, its author says, should settle a debate that has been roiling for more than two centuries.
Jews of European descent, often called Ashkenazim, account for some 90% of the more than 13 million Jews in the world today.
According to the so-called Rhineland Hypothesis, Ashkenazim descended from Jews who progressively fled Palestine after the Muslim conquest of 638 AD.
They settled in southern Europe and then, in the late Middle Ages, about 50,000 of them moved from the Rhineland in Germany into eastern Europe, according to the hypothesis.
But detractors say this idea is implausible.
Barring a miracle – which some supporters of the Rhineland Hypothesis have in fact suggested – the scenario would have been demographically impossible.
It would mean that the population of Eastern European Jews leapt from 50,000 in the 15th century to around eight million at the start of the 20th century.
That birth rate would have been 10 times greater than that of the local non-Jewish population. And it would have occurred despite economic hardship, disease, wars and pogroms that ravaged Jewish communities.
Seeking new light in the argument, a study published in the British journal Genome Biology and Evolution, compares the genomes of 1,287 unrelated individuals who hail from eight Jewish and 74 non-Jewish populations.
Geneticist Eran Elhaik of the Johns Hopkins School of Public Health in Baltimore, Maryland, trawled through this small mountain of data in search of single changes in the DNA code that are linked to a group's geographical origins.
Such telltales have been used in past research to delve into the origins of the Basque people and the pygmy people of central Africa.
Among European Jews, Elhaik found ancestral signatures that pointed clearly to the Caucasus and also, but to a smaller degree, the Middle East.
The results, said Elhaik, give sound backing for the rival theory – the "Khazarian Hypothesis."
Backed by archaeological findings
Under this concept, eastern European Jews descended from the Khazars, a hotchpotch of Turkic clans that settled the Caucasus in the early centuries AD and, influenced by Jews from Palestine, converted to Judaism in the 8th century.
The Judeo-Khazars built a flourishing empire, drawing in Jews from Mesopotamia and imperial Byzantium.
They became so successful that they sent offshoots into Hungary and Romania, planting the seeds of a great Diaspora.
But Khazaria collapsed in the 13th century when it was attacked by the Mongols and became weakened by outbreaks of the Black Death.
The Judeo-Khazars fled westwards, settling in the rising Polish Kingdom and in Hungary, where their skills in finance, economics and politics were in demand, and eventually spread to central and western Europe, according to the "Khazarian Hypothesis."
"We conclude that the genome of European Jews is a tapestry of ancient populations including Judaised Khazars, Greco-Roman Jews, Mesopotamian Jews and Judeans," says Elhaik.
"Their population structure was formed in the Caucasus and the banks of the Volga, with roots stretching to Canaan and the banks of the Jordan."
Many things are unknown about the Khazars, whose tribal confederation gathered Slavs, Scythians, Hunnic-Bulgars, Iranians, Alans and Turks.
But, argues Elhaik, the tale sketched in the genes is backed by archaeological findings, by Jewish literature that describes the Khazars' conversion to Judaism, and by language, too.
"Yiddish, the language of Central and Eastern European Jews, began as a Slavic language" before being reclassified as High German, he notes.
Another pointer is that European Jews and their ancestral groups in the Caucasus and Middle East share a relatively high risk of diseases such as cystic fibrosis.
The investigation should help fine-tune a fast-expanding branch of genomics, which looks at single-change DNA mutations that are linked with inherited disease, adds Elhaik
Debate on European Jews' origin settled? - Israel Jewish Scene, Ynetnews < click
Barring a miracle – which some supporters of the Rhineland Hypothesis have in fact suggested – the scenario would have been demographically impossible.
anyone who cares to can find out fairly quickly that the "supporters" of the miracle theory are in fact the older geneticists themselves.
S
The very claim that there were no gas chamber shoots this whole bizarre and bogus theory out of the water for me. My grandfather saw those gas chambers as well as the miles of trains cars filled to overflowing and spilling out all over the ground around with the corpses of dead Jews, car after car after car. My grandfather said as you looked over the ground, every now and then, one of these corpses would blink. Yeah, those were still alive but to weak to do more than blink. My uncle also saw the gas chambers and knew a man personally who brought countless Jews to those gas chambers who thought they were going in for a shower. They never came out. The man delivering them actually was told by his authorities that they really were showers. But it got around pretty fast that no one who went in was ever seen again. After the war, he went in and saw them. They were only great enclosed rooms with no way out. Nothing to do with showers.
The horrors of this war such as the endless dead corpses of Jews as well as the walking corpses still alive were seen by countless American soldiers. To say these men were liars is impossibly evil and straight from the mouth of Satan. My grandfather and my uncle had no reason to lie. It's ridiculous to even consider that they and all the other soldiers that saw this would lie. It's insanity to believe this.
I can't believe that in an age such as this when virtually everyone is educated, people would actually believe these lies. Obviously, the devil can convince the masses of anything though for those not led by God.
The horrors of this war such as the endless dead corpses of Jews as well as the walking corpses still alive were seen by countless American soldiers. To say these men were liars is impossibly evil and straight from the mouth of Satan. My grandfather and my uncle had no reason to lie. It's ridiculous to even consider that they and all the other soldiers that saw this would lie. It's insanity to believe this.
I can't believe that in an age such as this when virtually everyone is educated, people would actually believe these lies. Obviously, the devil can convince the masses of anything though for those not led by God.
Last edited by a moderator:
S
what you keep ignoring...is that the Rhineland Hypothesis is preposterous..
i would ask you to address that, but since you've decided i'm lying. we won't bother.
i'm surely not interested.
all the Arabs and the Byzantines, eastern orthodox, and ancient travelers clearly identified the Khazars as converted JEWS.
Khazaria.com makes it clear in a single passge...yet you claim you see absolutely nowhere they say they were converted a thousand years ago
who's fault is that rachel?
yours? or mine?
"finally i see absolutely nothing on khazaria.com that suggests that the owners believe their ancestors are actually converted khazars...and the direct quotations i have posted show that they believe the opposite..."
let's see if this is hard:
Medieval Kingdom of Khazaria, 652-1016
Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars. After their conversion, the Khazar people used Jewish personal names, spoke and wrote in Hebrew, were circumcised, had synagogues and rabbis, studied the Torah and Talmud, and observed Hanukkah, Pesach, and the Sabbath. The Khazars were an advanced civilization with one of the most tolerant societies of the medieval period. It hosted merchants from all over Asia and Europe. On these pages it is hoped that you may learn more about this fascinating culture.
Khazaria.com - History of Jewish Khazars, Khazar Turk, Khazarian Jews
do the jews at Khazaria.com, the owners, believe their ancestors are actually converted khazars, rachel?
what did they say, above?
was that hard?
"The Kuzari: In Defense of the Despised Faith" is the first new translation into English of The Kuzari since 1905, annotated and explained based on the classic commentaries. Written by Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi of Spain over a period of twenty years and completed in 1140, The Kuzari has enthralled generations of Jews and non-Jews alike with its clear-cut presentation on Judaism, and its polemics against Greek philosophy, Christianity, Islam, and Karaism.
The Kuzari presents a dialog between King Bulan of the Khazars and a rabbi. The story is told that the righteous king was plagued by a recurring dream in which an angel told him: "Your intentions are desirable to the Creator, but not your deeds." This prompted him to summon a Greek philosopher, a Christian missionary, a Muslim mullah, and a Jewish sage (Yitzhak ha-Sangari) to the Khazarian palace to guide him on the proper religious path. He was dissatisfied with each theologian until he heard what the rabbi had to say. Bulan debated with the rabbi, and finally conceded that Judaism was the one true and correct religion. History records that Bulan and much of the Khazar tribe converted to Judaism. Essays 2 thru 5 of The Kuzari feature lively question-and-answer sessions between the Khazar king and the Jewish rabbi. Topics they discuss include the fundamentals of Judaism, tradition vs. logic, prophetic messages, the afterlife, the land of Israel, the Hebrew language, the benefits of communal prayer, the Sabbath, God's various names, astrology, determinism (fatalism) vs. free will (initiative), and many other subjects. The Kuzari is one of the most revered Jewish philosophical works of all time. According to Rabbi Eliyahu (the "Gaon") of Vilna, The Kuzari is "holy and pure, and the fundamentals of Israel's faith and the Torah are contained within."
The Kuzari by Yehuda HaLevi
do Jewish Rabbis happily tell the story of the conversion of the Khazars, rachel?
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies)
"Some of the papers are on general history and relations with other states. From Irina A. Arzhantseva we have "The Alans: Neighbours of the Khazars in the Caucasus". Thomas S. Noonan contributes "The Economy of the Khazar Khagante". James Howard-Johnson writes on Byzantine sources for Khazar history. Tatiaana Kalinina, David Wasserstein and Dan Shapira write on interactions between the Khazars and the Muslim world, while Vladimir Petrukhin examines Khazaria-Rus' relations.
The remaining papers deal with the Khazars' famous conversion to Judaism. Peter B. Golden's contribution is a discussion of their adoption of the religion. Artem Fedorchuk offers "New Findings Relating to Hebrew Epigrahic Sources from the Crimea". Victor Shnirelman contributes "The Story of A Euphemism", a look at how Russian nationalists have viewed the Khazars as the first conspiracy against their country, and whose shadowy heirs continue to cause trouble, using the kingdom for some old-time Jew-bashing without being obvious anti-Semite. Paul Wexler offers "Yiddish Evidence for the Khazar Component in the Ashkenazic Ethnogenesis".
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies): Golden, P.B. (ed.), Ben-Shammai, H. (ed.), Roná-Tas, A. (ed.), Peter B. Golden, Haggai Ben-Shammai, Andras Rona-Tas: 9789004160422: Amazon.com: Books
who is writing this stuff? antisemitic gentiles?
or jews?
RELATIONS BETWEEN THE KHAZARS AND THE GEORGIANS
In Russian:
Yunusov, Arif. Meshetinskie turki: dva deportirovan narod. Baku: Zaman, 2000. Includes discussion of the settlement of Khazars and other Turks in Georgia and their relations with the Georgian people.
Toporov, Vladimir Nikolaevich. Sviatost' i sviatye v russkoi dukhovnoi kul'ture: Pervyi Vek Christianstva na Rusi. Moscow: "Gnozis", Shkola "Yaziki russkoi kul'tury", 1995. Contains hundreds of pages discussing intellectual communications (linguistic and cultural) between Jews and Rus'ians and establishing the Khazarian origin of the Rus Jews.
In German:
Brutzkus, Julius Davidovich. "Die Chazaren und das Kiewer Russland." In VIIe Congrès International des Sciences Historiques: Résumés des communications présentées au Congrès, Vol. 1, pp. 108-113. Warsaw: Société Polonaise d'Histoire, 1933. Alleges the existence of Khazar place-names in Kiev city and Kiev district.
your quotation from the khazaria.com site states that the khazars largely converted to judaism...which is not in dispute...but nowhere in that quotation and nowhere on the entire site as far as i have seen do they ever express agreement with the myth that the khazar converts are the ancestral origin of the modern ashkenazi jews...
so for whatever reason you continue to misrepresent the views expressed on khazaria.com...and i know your reading level is higher than fifth grade...you aren't doing this by accident...
yes elhaik's paper was peer reviewed by geneticists...i strongly doubt that any of the reviewers was a historian...and knowledge of middle eastern history is what you need to see the fatal flaw in elhaik's paper...because the genetics are correct...it is the historical assumptions that are invalid...
elhaik found a genetic connection between ashkenazi jews and the armenian and georgian population...he missed the fact that the armenians and ancestral georgians were more closely connected with anatolia and the middle east...and far less with central asia and mongolia where the khazars originally came from...so by showing a genetic connection between the ashkenazim and the armenians and georgians elhaik unwittingly demonstrated that the ashkenazi jews are much closer to the middle east than to the khazars...he then went on to draw the exact opposite conclusion because he didn't understand the historical geography...
i never suggested that 'everybody in the world is an ancient israelite'...why all the lies?
finally elhaik appears to have either misunderstood the rhineland theory or else referenced a non mainstream version of the theory...in the mainstream rhineland theory the migration of the ashkenazim to the rhineland began around the year 1000...not the fifteenth century as in elhaik's caricature...moreover there were already jewish populations there when the ashkenazim arrived...the two populations would have intermingled fairly quickly...
i would ask you to address that, but since you've decided i'm lying. we won't bother.
i'm surely not interested.
all the Arabs and the Byzantines, eastern orthodox, and ancient travelers clearly identified the Khazars as converted JEWS.
Khazaria.com makes it clear in a single passge...yet you claim you see absolutely nowhere they say they were converted a thousand years ago
who's fault is that rachel?
yours? or mine?
"finally i see absolutely nothing on khazaria.com that suggests that the owners believe their ancestors are actually converted khazars...and the direct quotations i have posted show that they believe the opposite..."
let's see if this is hard:
Medieval Kingdom of Khazaria, 652-1016
Over a thousand years ago, the far east of Europe was ruled by Jewish kings who presided over numerous tribes, including their own tribe: the Turkic Khazars. After their conversion, the Khazar people used Jewish personal names, spoke and wrote in Hebrew, were circumcised, had synagogues and rabbis, studied the Torah and Talmud, and observed Hanukkah, Pesach, and the Sabbath. The Khazars were an advanced civilization with one of the most tolerant societies of the medieval period. It hosted merchants from all over Asia and Europe. On these pages it is hoped that you may learn more about this fascinating culture.
Khazaria.com - History of Jewish Khazars, Khazar Turk, Khazarian Jews
do the jews at Khazaria.com, the owners, believe their ancestors are actually converted khazars, rachel?
what did they say, above?
was that hard?
"The Kuzari: In Defense of the Despised Faith" is the first new translation into English of The Kuzari since 1905, annotated and explained based on the classic commentaries. Written by Rabbi Yehuda HaLevi of Spain over a period of twenty years and completed in 1140, The Kuzari has enthralled generations of Jews and non-Jews alike with its clear-cut presentation on Judaism, and its polemics against Greek philosophy, Christianity, Islam, and Karaism.
The Kuzari presents a dialog between King Bulan of the Khazars and a rabbi. The story is told that the righteous king was plagued by a recurring dream in which an angel told him: "Your intentions are desirable to the Creator, but not your deeds." This prompted him to summon a Greek philosopher, a Christian missionary, a Muslim mullah, and a Jewish sage (Yitzhak ha-Sangari) to the Khazarian palace to guide him on the proper religious path. He was dissatisfied with each theologian until he heard what the rabbi had to say. Bulan debated with the rabbi, and finally conceded that Judaism was the one true and correct religion. History records that Bulan and much of the Khazar tribe converted to Judaism. Essays 2 thru 5 of The Kuzari feature lively question-and-answer sessions between the Khazar king and the Jewish rabbi. Topics they discuss include the fundamentals of Judaism, tradition vs. logic, prophetic messages, the afterlife, the land of Israel, the Hebrew language, the benefits of communal prayer, the Sabbath, God's various names, astrology, determinism (fatalism) vs. free will (initiative), and many other subjects. The Kuzari is one of the most revered Jewish philosophical works of all time. According to Rabbi Eliyahu (the "Gaon") of Vilna, The Kuzari is "holy and pure, and the fundamentals of Israel's faith and the Torah are contained within."
The Kuzari by Yehuda HaLevi
do Jewish Rabbis happily tell the story of the conversion of the Khazars, rachel?
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies)
"Some of the papers are on general history and relations with other states. From Irina A. Arzhantseva we have "The Alans: Neighbours of the Khazars in the Caucasus". Thomas S. Noonan contributes "The Economy of the Khazar Khagante". James Howard-Johnson writes on Byzantine sources for Khazar history. Tatiaana Kalinina, David Wasserstein and Dan Shapira write on interactions between the Khazars and the Muslim world, while Vladimir Petrukhin examines Khazaria-Rus' relations.
The remaining papers deal with the Khazars' famous conversion to Judaism. Peter B. Golden's contribution is a discussion of their adoption of the religion. Artem Fedorchuk offers "New Findings Relating to Hebrew Epigrahic Sources from the Crimea". Victor Shnirelman contributes "The Story of A Euphemism", a look at how Russian nationalists have viewed the Khazars as the first conspiracy against their country, and whose shadowy heirs continue to cause trouble, using the kingdom for some old-time Jew-bashing without being obvious anti-Semite. Paul Wexler offers "Yiddish Evidence for the Khazar Component in the Ashkenazic Ethnogenesis".
The World of the Khazars (Handbook of Oriental Studies): Golden, P.B. (ed.), Ben-Shammai, H. (ed.), Roná-Tas, A. (ed.), Peter B. Golden, Haggai Ben-Shammai, Andras Rona-Tas: 9789004160422: Amazon.com: Books
who is writing this stuff? antisemitic gentiles?
or jews?
RELATIONS BETWEEN THE KHAZARS AND THE GEORGIANS
In Russian:
Yunusov, Arif. Meshetinskie turki: dva deportirovan narod. Baku: Zaman, 2000. Includes discussion of the settlement of Khazars and other Turks in Georgia and their relations with the Georgian people.
Toporov, Vladimir Nikolaevich. Sviatost' i sviatye v russkoi dukhovnoi kul'ture: Pervyi Vek Christianstva na Rusi. Moscow: "Gnozis", Shkola "Yaziki russkoi kul'tury", 1995. Contains hundreds of pages discussing intellectual communications (linguistic and cultural) between Jews and Rus'ians and establishing the Khazarian origin of the Rus Jews.
In German:
Brutzkus, Julius Davidovich. "Die Chazaren und das Kiewer Russland." In VIIe Congrès International des Sciences Historiques: Résumés des communications présentées au Congrès, Vol. 1, pp. 108-113. Warsaw: Société Polonaise d'Histoire, 1933. Alleges the existence of Khazar place-names in Kiev city and Kiev district.
your quotation from the khazaria.com site states that the khazars largely converted to judaism...which is not in dispute...but nowhere in that quotation and nowhere on the entire site as far as i have seen do they ever express agreement with the myth that the khazar converts are the ancestral origin of the modern ashkenazi jews...
so for whatever reason you continue to misrepresent the views expressed on khazaria.com...and i know your reading level is higher than fifth grade...you aren't doing this by accident...
yes elhaik's paper was peer reviewed by geneticists...i strongly doubt that any of the reviewers was a historian...and knowledge of middle eastern history is what you need to see the fatal flaw in elhaik's paper...because the genetics are correct...it is the historical assumptions that are invalid...
elhaik found a genetic connection between ashkenazi jews and the armenian and georgian population...he missed the fact that the armenians and ancestral georgians were more closely connected with anatolia and the middle east...and far less with central asia and mongolia where the khazars originally came from...so by showing a genetic connection between the ashkenazim and the armenians and georgians elhaik unwittingly demonstrated that the ashkenazi jews are much closer to the middle east than to the khazars...he then went on to draw the exact opposite conclusion because he didn't understand the historical geography...
i never suggested that 'everybody in the world is an ancient israelite'...why all the lies?
finally elhaik appears to have either misunderstood the rhineland theory or else referenced a non mainstream version of the theory...in the mainstream rhineland theory the migration of the ashkenazim to the rhineland began around the year 1000...not the fifteenth century as in elhaik's caricature...moreover there were already jewish populations there when the ashkenazim arrived...the two populations would have intermingled fairly quickly...
R
This page is Copyright © 2000-2011 by Kevin Brook, all rights reserved. Unauthorized reproduction of this page is prohibited. Are Mountain Jews Descended from the Khazars? An Examination of Jewish Tribes from the Eastern Caucasus by Kevin Alan Brook Are Mountain Jews Descended from the Khazars? < click paranoid conspiracy theorist, much? still accusing me of trash - after you've slipped away and discovered the things i posted years ago are true. and it's zone who has an agenda? you're funny. i know you won't keep the issues of the Oxford findings in mind - you hate it. just keep watching for the next round. and keep tweaking your story. and i know you won't bother reading ALL the older research which is based ENTIRELY on an admitted and on record assumption of a MIRACULOUS procreation event. but perhaps you can keep in mind that Khazaria.com is a COMPILATION or DATABASE of every finding and theory and study available - most of which contradict each other, even on the same page. they do no attempt to reach ANY definitive conclusions on ONGOING studies. DUH. the very CONCEPT ITSELF - that: was something you yourself whimpered, shrieked, derided and reported me at CC for just a few short years ago as a satanic NAZI MYTH. remember, rachel? now you're onboard with The Khazarian Kingdom conversion....amazing i told you - you're a few years behind. so the combination of arrogance with ignorance is understandable, though particularly unattractive in you. following is something that is not prohibited by copyright. try to hold the kevin brooks data page on the Mountain Jews in your mind as you read this. your heroic defense against the big bad Nazi Conspiracy Theorist Zone is held up by the idea that (GASP...wait for it) the ASHKENAZISM are NOT the primary subjects of these studies....Brooks' included. all these jewish scholars excitedly discussing the origins of the ashkenazism and struggling to resolve the problematic MIRACULOUS RHINELAND THEORY gaga......but rachel isn't having it. why, i have NO CLUE....actually i do - cuz she's a better historian than they. do you have a particular reason for making certain the ashkenazism are NOT from the Caucuasus Khaganate? only you know what that is. nobody seems to care but you. an historian such as yourself? God help us. well, if i were to continue this wretched conversation with you, i'd simply post the historians discussion of elhaik's findings (his thesis certain not being new) but...nah. do your own work really. i'll bet he'd be blushing with pride to know you approve of his expert genetic finding, young lady. as for the history..... perhaps someday rachel will burst on to the scene and provide the solution that all the JEWISH HISTORIANS who have no issue with the Khazarian Ashkenazi connection just were too stupid to get. either that or they're self haters, eh? you naturally reject ALL of them. just as you reject the New Revisionists (Jews) who debunk your racist anti-indigenous population theories - namely - NO NAKBA....among other disgraceful assertions you've made. maybe you're just a garden-variety american zionist racist and a bigot - your previous posts on this subject just a couple of years ago, and your anti-arab stance is pretty clear. putrid remarks about the palestinians and syrians (CHRISTIANS) and astounding remarks about Israel is your BFF....LOL. k. the historical assumption of the Rhineland Hypothesis is a typical Talmudic-style delusion. but you can keep it if it makes you feel better. he drew the right conclusion, because he discarded the INFANTILE Rhineland Miracle hypothesis. but cling to it. you have to now. blah blah blah.....see following post. LOL....you still have no idea what the database at Khazria.com is for. initially when i posted it years ago - I WAS A SKINHEAD JEW-HATER for even suggesting such thing existed.....member rachel? you campaigned mightly to get me banned for being antisemitic. *cough* incidentally - you should contact Mearsheimer and Walt and let them know how wrong THEY are too, rachel. i'm sure they'll take you seriously. thanks for your non-expert opinion. i'll keep following the unbiased jewish historians and genome experts if that's okay with you, girl. they have no vested interest like you. if i get things wrong here or there, i'm fine with that. i've been at it for some time...things are only just recently becoming LEGAL to mention and discuss. in certain circles it's still antisemitic to even say the word jew and khazar in the same sentence. unlike you, i couldn't care less. seek out the truth and let the chips fall where they may. i don't have to defend Israel at any cost, like you. ~ anyway: reminder - rachel's issues are: History Migrations Ashkenazism Khazaria let's see what a non-copyright page says. know your footnotes. cont....
i told you - you're a few years behind. so the combination of arrogance with ignorance is understandable, though particularly unattractive in you. following is something that is not prohibited by copyright. try to hold the kevin brooks data page on the Mountain Jews in your mind as you read this. your heroic defense against the big bad Nazi Conspiracy Theorist Zone is held up by the idea that (GASP...wait for it) the ASHKENAZISM are NOT the primary subjects of these studies....Brooks' included. all these jewish scholars excitedly discussing the origins of the ashkenazism and struggling to resolve the problematic MIRACULOUS RHINELAND THEORY gaga......but rachel isn't having it. why, i have NO CLUE....actually i do - cuz she's a better historian than they. do you have a particular reason for making certain the ashkenazism are NOT from the Caucuasus Khaganate? only you know what that is. nobody seems to care but you. an historian such as yourself? God help us. well, if i were to continue this wretched conversation with you, i'd simply post the historians discussion of elhaik's findings (his thesis certain not being new) but...nah. do your own work really. i'll bet he'd be blushing with pride to know you approve of his expert genetic finding, young lady. as for the history..... perhaps someday rachel will burst on to the scene and provide the solution that all the JEWISH HISTORIANS who have no issue with the Khazarian Ashkenazi connection just were too stupid to get. either that or they're self haters, eh? you naturally reject ALL of them. just as you reject the New Revisionists (Jews) who debunk your racist anti-indigenous population theories - namely - NO NAKBA....among other disgraceful assertions you've made. maybe you're just a garden-variety american zionist racist and a bigot - your previous posts on this subject just a couple of years ago, and your anti-arab stance is pretty clear. putrid remarks about the palestinians and syrians (CHRISTIANS) and astounding remarks about Israel is your BFF....LOL. k. the historical assumption of the Rhineland Hypothesis is a typical Talmudic-style delusion. but you can keep it if it makes you feel better. he drew the right conclusion, because he discarded the INFANTILE Rhineland Miracle hypothesis. but cling to it. you have to now. blah blah blah.....see following post. LOL....you still have no idea what the database at Khazria.com is for. initially when i posted it years ago - I WAS A SKINHEAD JEW-HATER for even suggesting such thing existed.....member rachel? you campaigned mightly to get me banned for being antisemitic. *cough* incidentally - you should contact Mearsheimer and Walt and let them know how wrong THEY are too, rachel. i'm sure they'll take you seriously. thanks for your non-expert opinion. i'll keep following the unbiased jewish historians and genome experts if that's okay with you, girl. they have no vested interest like you. if i get things wrong here or there, i'm fine with that. i've been at it for some time...things are only just recently becoming LEGAL to mention and discuss. in certain circles it's still antisemitic to even say the word jew and khazar in the same sentence. unlike you, i couldn't care less. seek out the truth and let the chips fall where they may. i don't have to defend Israel at any cost, like you. ~ anyway: reminder - rachel's issues are: History Migrations Ashkenazism Khazaria let's see what a non-copyright page says. know your footnotes. cont....
the author also indicates that he finds it more likely that the khazars are the ancestors of muslim turkic groups in the caucasus region...such as the karachay and kumukh people...having been forcibly converted to isalm after the fall of the khazar empire...
your point in posting this wasn't clear but if it was another argument for your khazar myth...then the article you linked to as 'evidence' isn't exactly a ringing endorsement...
so evidently you are guilty of yet another misrepresentation...or maybe your 'research' is just a lot more -sloppy- than you have led most people to believe and you don't actually -read- half of the stuff you cite as 'evidence' for your views...
i have never claimed that the khazar people did not convert to judaism...i only argued and continued to argue that there is no basis for the belief that the khazars are the origin of the ashkenazi ethnicity...
you now claim that khazaria.com doesn't attempt to reach any definitive conclusions...when you have previously misrepresented that site as having 'proudly proclaimed their khazar ancestry' or whatever...it seems until exactly one post ago you thought they had reached a definitive conclusion..
to borrow your phrase...keep 'tweaking your story'...and -projecting-
and contrary to your lie that everyone has quietly accepted the 'khazar hypothesis' now that elhaik has supposedly 'proven' it...and that you're merely following the 'jewish historians and genome experts'...
"While Elhaik's work has provided ideological support for those seeking the destruction of Israel, it's fallen flat among established scientists, who peer reviewed his work and found it sloppy at best and political at worst."
"'He's just wrong,' said Marcus Feldman of Stanford University, a leading researcher in Jewish genetics. 'If you take all of the careful genetic population analysis that has been done over the last 15 years… there’s no doubt about the common Middle Eastern origin,' he said. He added that Elhaik’s paper 'is sort of a one-off.'"
"'It's an unrealistic premise,' said University of Arizona geneticist Michael Hammer, one of the world’s top Y-chromosomal researchers."
"Discover's Razib Khan did a textured critique in his Gene Expression blog, noting the study’s historical fuzziness and its selective use of data to come up with what seems like a pre-cooked conclusion. As Razib writes, it's hardly surprising that we would find a small but sizable Khazarian contribution to the 'Jewish gene pool'. In fact the male line of my own family traces to the Caucuses, suggesting I’m one of the 20 percent or so of Jews whose lineage traces to converted royal Khazarians. But that view is widely acknowledged by Ostrer, Hammer, Feldman, Michael Thomas and every major researcher in this area—as summarized in my book, Abraham’s Children: Race, Identity and the DNA of the Chosen People."
"The rebuke of Elhaik’s study apparently has irked the beleaguered and brash researcher. He’s launched a new offensive—the double entendre is intentional—as chronicled in the Jewish Forward. Elhaik is now calling the world’s top geneticists 'liars' and 'frauds.' When I weighed in on the magazine’s discussion board, Elhaik responded with academic restraint, claiming my reporting was no better than the geneticists he trashed, saying it shared 'common ground with the Nazism (sic) ideology.'"
Israeli Researcher Challenges Jewish DNA links to Israel, Calls Those Who Disagree 'Nazi Sympathizers' - Forbes
apparently you missed this -first page google hit- in your 'research'...
in fact calling it 'research' is giving you way too much credit...what you are really engaged in is cherry picking and misrepresentation and other forms of intellectual dishonesty...
the reason i have a problem with the khazar myth is that it simply -isn't true-...and unlike you and your fellow postmodernist conspiracy fabricators...facts and truth actually mean something to me...
the one you should be reported to is actually your LCMS pastor...which would probably result in your -excommunication-
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